Hells Nursery

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

MR. Chemnitz: If I recall ignorance is not a legitimate defense in the eyes of the law.

HP: Dear God, You may need to wait awhile before you come to take us home. I don’t believe we are ready to judge angels just yet.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Mman: There is no indication from scripture that this practice ever took place. Sometimes we have households being baptized, but other indications are that no infants could have been included.

In Acts 8 we have the jailers household was baptized, yet it states after their baptism, they rejoiced having believed. Could this have described an infant?

We know that sin is not inherited from one's parents. If it were, then Christ would have inherited sin from His parents.

The qualities of little children are set forth as models for those who would aspire to enter the kingdom (Matt. 18:3; 19:14), and for those already in the church (1 Cor. 14:2O). Surely God is not suggesting that we emulate little, totally corrupt sinners!

HP: Another excellent post, with an abundance of truth. May your tribe increase!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BD17: Alive does not mean he was innocent, Paul is speaking about his physical life that he was enjoying before the law showed him he was sinful.

Hp: Now there is an interesting thought.

Ro 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
So, following your logic, Paul must have died physically when the commandment came. Right?

 

[Brother Bob]

Same debate him and I already had with same remarks being said. You will not convince him HP.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Brother Bob: Same debate him and I already had with same remarks being said. You will not convince him HP.

HP: Sorry Brother Bob. I must have missed your post. Anyway, it is not ‘all’ about convincing the one you are addressing, but rather it is about revealing truth that others might see and understand. If the one your speaking to sees the light, that is well and good, but by far not the ‘only’ objective. I know I am just preaching to the choir so I will stop.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

All of those that feel that babies are indeed sinful, what law have they transgressed? How can we maintain a rightful attitude of utter disdain for the abortionist and the mother that allows her child to be ripped and torn apart from the womb, if in fact we maintain that God torments innocent infants in HELL for eternity????

For all of those that feel that the blood of Christ covers infants, do you have a scripture to support that idea?

 

[Brother Bob]

You doing good HP, carry on.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Webdog: If my little son (the little guy in the corner making the mean face) grabs a piece of candy from the grocery store and leaves the store, is he guilty of stealing? Would the authorities hold him accountable and punish him? Of course not, because he doesn't know what stealing is and because he doesn't understand it! I can't believe there are people who believe that God is so unloving that an infant would go to hell, not knowing the very sin he or she committed!

HP: I like the logic you use here! One needs to understand the intrinsic idea behind the commandment, apart from punishments or rewards. The intrinsic worth MUST be understood in order for sin or righteousness to be possibly predicated of any intent and or subsequent action.

A dog can know right and wrong in a sense, but it does not understand the intrinsic idea behind the command. It is only responding to punishment or rewards. Such is the case with infants and young children. They are not moral agents, for they do not understand the intrinsic worth of any moral command. They are only responding to punishment or rewards. Not until they reach the age of accountability, the age where they know and understand the intrinsic worth of a moral commandment, are they properly denoted as moral agents and proper subjects of moral law. Until that age, God imputes no sin to their account. No knowledge, no light, no understanding, no sin imputed in regard to that specific issue.

 

[webdog]

I would hope that you would have explained to him that taking things that are not yours is wrong then he would know.

My eight month old would probably just look at me, and not have a clue what I was talking about (my avatar is my son)

That argument does not fly.

Did you let Paul know this before he wrote Romans?

Not knowing something does not mean it is okay.

Have you even read Romans 5? Read it and come back...

If that is the case then people who are raised never knowing God are saved because they can claim ignorance, and we all know that is not the truth.

Have you even read Romans 1? Read it and come back...

You speak of God's love but answer this how is it loving to give an infant His grace while he is ignorant and then takes that grace away when that child gains the knowledge of the law. That sounds real nice..."Here you go you can have salvation while you are ignorant but as soon as you aren't I am going to take it away from you."

Why don't you ask God, since it's in His Word

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BD17: You speak of God's love but answer this how is it loving to give an infant His grace while he is ignorant and then takes that grace away when that child gains the knowledge of the law. That sounds real nice..."Here you go you can have salvation while you are ignorant but as soon as you aren't I am going to take it away from you."

HP: Where is the scripture that states God gives or has to give grace to infants?? I say infants do not need grace or salvation, for they are not even moral agents. God takes nothing away from them due to the fact he has no need to supply them with grace in the first place. They are INNOCENT.

 

[Brother Bob]

Grace being the Love of God then I do think they need that for they must have a change to go to Heaven and I am not talking about forgiveness but changed from a natural to a Spiritual body. So, I think they do need His Grace which is His Love.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Brother Bob: Grace being the Love of God then I do think they need that for they must have a change to go to Heaven and I am not talking about forgiveness but changed from a natural to a Spiritual body. So, I think they do need His Grace which is His Love.

HP: In the sense that you use the word grace, I see your point. I would refer to what you term grace in this instance as just natural duties of God, not necessarily ‘grace.’

If God creates man housed in a mortal shell, yet creates them to live eternally, He of ‘necessity’ has to make that change happen at some point in time, would He not? I do not see grace as anything ‘necessitated.’

I am not saying you are wrong, just trying to put the perspective on it that I have been given thus far.

 

[BD17]

HP: In the sense that you use the word grace, I see your point. I would refer to what you term grace in this instance as just natural duties of God, not necessarily ‘grace.’

If God creates man housed in a mortal shell, yet creates them to live eternally, He of ‘necessity’ has to make that change happen at some point in time, would He not? I do not see grace as anything ‘necessitated.’

I am not saying you are wrong, just trying to put the perspective on it that I have been given thus far.

So the classic argument that you guys like to use does not apply to you in this case? You guys like to say ALL means ALL as in each and every. I have seen it on each one of your posts, Webdog, Bro. Bob. HP. So tell me here why ALL does not mean each and every. Show me where it says ALL except for infants and children. You cannot so either you hold to your argument and ALL means ALL including infant and children or it does not you cannot have it both ways. David himself said he was not innocent, he says in his psalms he was sinful from birth.

Babies are not innocent they are sinful beings by nature. You still have not answered the question of whether or not the people in countries that have no access to the gospel and have never heard the law are saved. According to your logic and arguments they are and if you say they aren't then you discount your own argument. If you say they are then you discount what Webdog is trying to prove by mentioning Romans 1 God makes himself known to all men in all ways so NONE are without excuse. To stay consistent with your arguments this includes infant and children.

if in fact we maintain that God torments innocent infants in HELL for eternity????

I never said children were in hell and I do not believe they are, I said on page one that I do not believe that, what I SAID was that IF they were in hell God would be justified in doing so.

Not until they reach the age of accountability, the age where they know and understand the intrinsic worth of a moral commandment,

Show me where this exists and show me where the Bible says what age it is. An age of accountability has to be specific it cannot be arbitrary otherwise everyone could decide when they feel they understand. Since there is no age of accountablity you cannot show what age it is.

 

[BD17]

Hp: Now there is an interesting thought.

Ro 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
So, following your logic, Paul must have died physically when the commandment came. Right?

He was alive, not in the sense of having spiritual life (6:11), but in his OWN estimation. Knowing the law, which promised life for obedience(v.10), made Paul realize that law-keeping was required. Trying to obey it made him realize that inwardly, in the desires of his heart(especially coveting v.8 the sin forbidden in the 10 commandment), he was constantly breaking the law even before he knew it, and when he saw what he was doing he could not stop. Therefore Paul writes that sin, the anti-God, anti-law driving force within him, "deceived me and ...killed me"(v.11) he became convinced that spritually he was lifeless and lost.

So where does he say he was innocent until a certain age? Let me help you... he doesn't.

 

[BD17]

My eight month old would probably just look at me, and not have a clue what I was talking about (my avatar is my son)

Did you let Paul know this before he wrote Romans?

Have you even read Romans 5? Read it and come back...

Have you even read Romans 1? Read it and come back...

Why don't you ask God, since it's in His Word

Then how could your 8-month old walk into a store and take something.

Romans 5 lets see you must be talking about verse 13 did you not read the rest of the chapter? Read v14,18,19, and 20-which says the law came in to INCREASE the trespass... if there was none to begin with how could it increase.

Romans 1 yes talks about the sinfulness of all men and how they are without excuse because God makes himself known, yet you contend all mean each and every individual, which by your definition would include children and infants.

Lets do what you guys do since it says all MEN what happens to the women, are they excluded because the bible speaks of all Men.

 

[Matt Black]

Anyone who says my infant son is going to Hell isn't coming anywhere near him...

Let me ask: what sin has he committed? For what of his actions should he be condemned to Hell for all eternity? It seems to me that the "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" cannot apply to infants or those with the mental age of an infant, since they are incapable of sin until they become aware of the knowledge of good and evil. To insist otherwise seems to me to be a monstrous doctrine...

 

[BD17]

Anyone who says my infant son is going to Hell isn't coming anywhere near him...

Let me ask: what sin has he committed? For what of his actions should he be condemned to Hell for all eternity? It seems to me that the "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" cannot apply to infants or those with the mental age of an infant, since they are incapable of sin until they become aware of the knowledge of good and evil. To insist otherwise seems to me to be a monstrous doctrine...

He has not commited the sin(act) but he is sinful(nature). I too have an infant son. He is quite precious, yet he is sinful. He is a sinner from birth whether he knows it or not.

By the way I DO NOT BELEIVE BABIES GO TO HELL! I do not know how to make it any clearer so please to all the people that want to atrribute that belief to me stop.

Monstrous? In whose eyes, yours. Was it monstrous for God to kill David's son, or to ask Abraham to kill Isaac, or all the Egyptian children killed in the plagues? Before you attribute monstrosity make sure you do not get your feelings about it mixed in with reality.

 

[Chemnitz]

Here we go again, another Baptist saying that salvation isn't God's doing but their own.

Knowledge is not a prerequisite of being guilty. One of the points of the Law is to point out our pre-existing guilt.

I have an newborn daughter myself, and if it wasn't for the fact that she has grown up in a household where the unadulterated gospel is proclaimed I'd be worried about her.

Once again the lets withhold God's grace from babies crowd is arguing from emotion rather than from the truth of God's Word. Your son is just as bad a sinner as you are and is in need of Christ just as much as you, and you should be ashamed of yourself for trying to make excuses for him rather than trying to share the goodnews of Christ.

 

[BD17]

Here we go again, another Baptist saying that salvation isn't God's doing but their own.

Knowledge is not a prerequisite of being guilty. One of the points of the Law is to point out our pre-existing guilt.

I have an newborn daughter myself, and if it wasn't for the fact that she has grown up in a household where the unadulterated gospel is proclaimed I'd be worried about her.

Once again the lets withhold God's grace from babies crowd is arguing from emotion rather than from the truth of God's Word. Your son is just as bad a sinner as you are and is in need of Christ just as much as you, and you should be ashamed of yourself for trying to make excuses for him rather than trying to share the goodnews of Christ.

Amen Chemnitz!! I am thankful that God saved me and that has found me worthy to raise a son in His house.

 

[Matt Black]

In what way is he just as bad a sinner as I am? What sins has he committed? (Hint: to be a 'sinner', you have to 'sin')