Hells Nursery

[webdog]

Your son is just as bad a sinner as you are and is in need of Christ just as much as you, and you should be ashamed of yourself for trying to make excuses for him rather than trying to share the goodnews of Christ.

What a foolish statement. Tell me, what sin has my son commit at eight months? Do you even KNOW what sin is? Let me help you out a little...
1 John 3:4 Everyone who commits sin also breaks the law; sin is the breaking of law.

Romans 7:7 What should we say then? Is the law sin? Absolutely not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin if it were not for the law. For example, I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, You shall not covet.

 

[BD17]

In what way is he just as bad a sinner as I am? What sins has he committed? (Hint: to be a 'sinner', you have to 'sin')

No you do not. You sin BECAUSE you are a sinner. Let me ask you a question Matt, why do we need Christ in our live? If you were to witness to an aborigine what would be the reason you would tell them they need Christ in their lives?

When you tell your son about Jesus and he asks why Jesus died what are you going to tell him? That he died to save us, from what Matt? If we are not sinful then why do we commit sinful acts?

 

[Matt Black]

That sounds just totally illogical to me: I am a sinner because I sin, not the other way round. Basic English lesson: a 'sin(n)-er' is 'one who sins', just as a 'box-er' is 'one who boxes', a 'lorry drive-r' in 'one who drives lorries' .You don't come across someone who says "I'm a lorry driver but I've never driven a lorry", do you? No, that would be absurd! It is equally absurd to describe someone as a sinner who has never sinned.

As to the aborigine, s/he will have sinned and therefore be in need of the blood of Jesus to forgive his/her sins. Jesus died for our sins. By the time my son is old enough to understand that when I tell him that, he will undoubtedly have committed sins which need Jesus' death to forgive. But right now he hasn't.

 

[webdog]

You sin BECAUSE you are a sinner.

You have this backwards. You are a sinner BECAUSE you sin! Being born with a sin nature, and being born sinning out of the box are two totally different things.

 

[BD17]

You have this backwards. You are a sinner BECAUSE you sin! Being born with a sin nature, and being born sinning out of the box are two totally different things.

Being born with a sin nature is why we sin. If you did not have a sin nature would you be inclined to sin? No. There for you sin because you are a sinner.(By nature). It is your nature, your desires that cause you to sin.

 

[Matt Black]

But you can only be punished for sin, nothaving a fallen nature, surely? Otherwise where is the justice in the punishment?

 

[BD17]

But you can only be punished for sin, nothaving a fallen nature, surely? Otherwise where is the justice in the punishment?

God's character of love and grace is why I believe babies do not go to hell, but I do hold that if they did God would be just in doing so. We inherited the sinful nature from Adam and because of that one trangression we are condemened. Is it just that every woman since Eve has to bear pain in child birth? Is it just that us men now have to work for the things we recieve. I mean we were not there why are we punished?

Because Adam was our representative, and in his failing he has condemned us to sin. Yet God has provided a way for us to be redeemed, do we deserve this mercy no. You see the problem is people think they deserve to take part in Christ's success, but not in Adam's failure.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BD17avid himself said he was not innocent, he says in his psalms he was sinful from birth.

HP: The text states that he was “conceived in sin,” not ‘born in sin.’ The truth of the matter is that David was an illegitimate child. He was simply stating that even from the very moment of his conception sin was involved. Why do think Jeese did not bring him to be chosen among his brothers when the prophet had told him to bring ALL of his sons to annoint one of them KING? Why do Scriptures not mention his mother, and why does it state that he had two half sisters?

It is a complete misconstruing of this text to try and make every man women and child a sinner from birth. David was a Jew. The Jews did NOT believe in original sin in the least. That dogma was totally foreign to them, as well as to Scripture. The doctrine of original sin was introduced into the Church via Augustine. Augustine is noted by many scholars and historians as the ‘father of original sin.’

Read 1Chronicles 2: 13-16 to find the names of David’s half sisters. David’s mother was married evidently to Nahash, an Amorite king. This might in fact explain why Nahash exhibited goodwill to David, more than likely out of respect for David's mother, Nahash’s previous wife and the mother of two of Nahash's daughters, half sisters to David.


It is simply wrong to take this verse tha David speaks of himself and the way he was conceived, and extrapolate that to mean 'all men including every infant born as sinners from birth.' The text does not state nor imply any such thing. That verse is one of the most abused passages in Scripture.

BD17: Show me where this exists and show me where the Bible says what age it is. An age of accountability has to be specific it cannot be arbitrary otherwise everyone could decide when they feel they understand. Since there is no age of accountablity you cannot show what age it is.

HP: Your deduction is simply false. The age of accountability can and does vary with every man. Simple God granted wisdom and reason attests to this reality. God decides, not man, when that age is achieved.

I believe I have read before that the Jews placed the age of accountability around 18 years of age. I personally believe it comes much younger, especially in todays enlightened world. It really does not matter ‘when’ it occurs, as much as knowing it occurs. Some NEVER reach that age, and never enter into the realm of moral agency. Our mental institutions attest clearly to that fact.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Webdog: You have this backwards. You are a sinner BECAUSE you sin! Being born with a sin nature, and being born sinning out of the box are two totally different things.

HP: You have a hearty “AMEN! “ from me. A proclivity to sin and being 'a sinner from birth' are again, not one in the same.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Matt Black: That sounds just totally illogical to me: I am a sinner because I sin, not the other way round.

HP: That is using your head for something other than a hat rack my friend. Your logic is right on and your illustrations in line with truth. I would give you a hearty 'Amen!" as well!

 

[BD17]

The doctrine of original sin was introduced into the Church via Augustine. Augustine is noted by many scholars and historians as the ‘father of original sin.’

Not true Barnabas spoke of it in 70A.D. "Learn: before we believed in God, the habitation of our heart was corrupt and weak."

Ignatius said in 110 AD- "They that are carnal(unbelievers) cannot do the things that are spritual...Nor can the unbelievers do the things of belief."

Justin Martyr 150AD-"Mankind by Adam fell under death, and the deception of the serpent; we are born sinners...No good thing dwells in us...for neither by nature, nor by human understanding is it possible for men to acquire the knowledge of things so great and divine, but by the energy of the Holy Spirit...Of ourselves it is impossible to enter the kingdom of God...He has convicted s of the impossibility of our nature to obtain life..."

Origen-"Our free will...or human nature is not sufficient to seek God in any manner."


All these at least a hundred years before Augustine.


Because he coined the term does mean he coined the thought.

 

[Chemnitz]

Well with the extreme selfcenteredness of all infants the 1st commandment.
If he is like any other infant, the fourth commandment.

All it takes is one, as James writes if you break one you break them all.

Matt,
We are sinners because we sin, and we sin because we are sinners. It is nasty little trap and the reason why we need the Gospel because we can't hope to do anything but sin.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Quote:
HP: The doctrine of original sin was introduced into the Church via Augustine. Augustine is noted by many scholars and historians as the ‘father of original sin.’

BD17: Not true ...

HP: There have been all sorts of false notions held by individual men, but it was never placed into the Church as required dogma until Augustine. He is correctly noted as the father of the doctrine of original sin.

What is amazing to me is that out of all of your references only one speaks directly to being ‘born in sin,’ and that, more than likely, is a modern day interpolation of Justin Martyr by someone needing to drum up a little support from the past. Possibly you would have the reference for the statement you attribute to him?

 

[webdog]

Well with the extreme selfcenteredness of all infants the 1st commandment.

Give proof that all infants are born "self centered", and don't use the cop out crying argument either. Infants can only communicate one way...by crying. To call this self centered is ignorance in motion.

If he is like any other infant, the fourth commandment.

This board can be so frustrating at times...

 

[BD17]

HP_ Sorry I do not have the reference. I wrote it down when I attended a talk on origianl sin and the speaker did not say which of Martyrs works they were from.


But, scripture does diagnose sin as a universal deformity of human nature, found at every point in every person (1 Kin 8:46; Rom. 3:9-23;7:18; 1 John 1:8-10).

 

[Chemnitz]

Yeah it can be frustrating when your pet theories are disabused by the truth. The only things an infant cares about is food in his or her stomach, sleeping, and a clean diaper. In a very real sense their god is food or their stomach depending on how you look at it and that is a definite violation of the 1 st commandment.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Webdog: This board can be so frustrating at times...

HP: Sure, but duty is ours, the results the Lord’s. Be not weary of sharing the truth. It is our solemn obligation to share the truth regardless of the opposition or results we see. We must preserve the truth for the next generation to the best of our abilities. I am grateful for the men and women that have patiently nurtured me along. I am sure we all seemed as 'the impossible task' to someone at some point in time.

When we feel overwhelmed, and the logic and reasoning of some seems so far removed from what we might expect from Christians, and we get frustrated, this verse speaks to me. Ro 12:16 Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.

 

[webdog]

Yeah it can be frustrating when your pet theories are disabused by the truth. The only things an infant cares about is food in his or her stomach, sleeping, and a clean diaper. In a very real sense their god is food or their stomach depending on how you look at it and that is a definite violation of the 1 st commandment.

What is frustrating is reading warped views like this. Babies worship food? Your outlandish claims would mean EVERY human who needs to eat, sleep and use the bathroom are being selfish. You would have to include Christ into this group, too. Did you forget that Jesus was an infant at one point, who only cared about eating every two hours, sleeping and having His diaper changed? Did He sin? Your arguments continue to fall flat on its face.

 

[J. Jump]

Ignatius said in 110 AD- "They that are carnal(unbelievers) cannot do the things that are spritual...Nor can the unbelievers do the things of belief."

Would be interested in knowing where this came from so I could read more of what was said there.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

The only things an infant cares about is food in his or her stomach, sleeping, and a clean diaper. In a very real sense their god is food or their stomach depending on how you look at it and that is a definite violation of the 1 st commandment.
__________________
You can call me, Mr. Chemnitz

MR Chemnitz,
Help us answer the topic questions of this thread. Where will you find all those sinful and selfish (according to you) aborted babies, infants, young children, and the mentally handicapped that have never reached the age of accountability that have died without being baptized?
If they are born with such sin, and God is their Creator, how is God not the author of sin? Adam is certainly my physical father, but does not sin reside in the soul and not the flesh? Is the flesh sinful or is the soul? Adam is not the father or creator of my soul, that part of me that is eternal in nature, is it not?