Help me understand calvinism.

[Gorship]

OK I want to try this again.

Here was my question from the free will thread :

"
May I ask an aside question.

Theres quite a few calvinists in here and I'm getting all sorts of different vibes on how we're describing free will.

So may I ask.

In calvinism. Did God predestinate and predetermine that Adam would fall in the garden.

Or

did Adam do it of his own free choice and God simply forknew the events and called them acceptable.

Did God move the chess piece or oberserve the chess board.

When I read piper he sounds like God moved the chess piece. But I'm getting different impressions from the crowd in here.

"

Piper says things like not one speck of dust hangs without God decreeing it.

Please explain like I'm 5. If you have some secondary or third causes, walk me through them.

Who was the primary first cause to the fall.

Once I understand this point and this point first can I go any further.




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[Reformed]

OK I want to try this again.

Here was my question from the free will thread :

"
May I ask an aside question.

Theres quite a few calvinists in here and I'm getting all sorts of different vibes on how we're describing free will.

So may I ask.

In calvinism. Did God predestinate and predetermine that Adam would fall in the garden.

Or

did Adam do it of his own free choice and God simply forknew the events and called them acceptable.

Did God move the chess piece or oberserve the chess board.

When I read piper he sounds like God moved the chess piece. But I'm getting different impressions from the crowd in here.

"

Piper says things like not one speck of dust hangs without God decreeing it.

Please explain like I'm 5. If you have some secondary or third causes, walk me through them.

Who was the primary first cause to the fall.

Once I understand this point and this point first can I go any further.




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First, if you are looking for complete agreement from either the Monergist or Synergist camp, get used to disappointment. There is more to the issue than how God operates in salvation.

You are asking whether God predestined and/or predetermined that Adam would sin in the Garden. Let me provide an answer from a centuries-old Baptist source on the matter. I quote from the 1689 Second London Baptist Confession of Faith:

5.4 The almighty power, unsearchable wisdom, and infinite goodness of God, so far manifest themselves in his providence, that his determinate counsel extendeth itself even to the first fall, and all other sinful actions both of angels and men; and that not by a bare permission, which also he most wisely and powerfully boundeth, and otherwise ordereth and governeth, in a manifold dispensation to his most holy ends; yet so, as the sinfulness of their acts proceedeth only from the creatures, and not from God, who, being most holy and righteous, neither is nor can be the author or approver of sin.
( Romans 11:32-34; 2 Samuel 24:1, 1 Chronicles 21:1; 2 Kings 19:28; Psalms 76;10; Genesis 1:20; Isaiah 10:6, 7, 12; Psalms 1:21; 1 John 2:16 )

Did God determine that the Fall would occur? Yes. He did so for His glory, or as the Confession states "his most holy ends". Even though God determined the Fall, only the creatures committed sin, not God.

Did Adam sin willingly? Yes. Adam was created without a sin nature. Unlike you and I, Adam had the ability to sin or not to sin (posse peccare, non posse peccare). Adam sinned with full volition. At no time did his sin escape God's omniscience or His providence.

I do not know how much into the minutia you want to get.

 

[Gorship]

Let me see if I get this right.

-"that his determinate counsel extendeth itself even to the first fall,'"

So Gods determined counsel extends all the way to the fall. It's fully determined.

-"and all other sinful actions both of angels and men; and that not by a bare permission,"

It wasn't determined by simple permission

-"which also he most wisely and powerfully boundeth, and otherwise ordereth and governeth, in a manifold dispensation to his most holy ends;"

God binds this determined event with "holy ends"

-"yet so, as the sinfulness of their acts proceedeth only from the creatures,"

Even though it's fully determined the creature acts on its own

-"and not from God, who, being most holy and righteous, neither is nor can be the author or approver of sin."

The creature acts on its own because God can't be the author of sin.


Is that gist of it? I understand I'm restating what you stated but I just want to be sure.

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[Reynolds]

First, if you are looking for complete agreement from either the Monergist or Synergist camp, get used to disappointment. There is more to the issue than how God operates in salvation.

You are asking whether God predestined and/or predetermined that Adam would sin in the Garden. Let me provide an answer from a centuries-old Baptist source on the matter. I quote from the 1689 Second London Baptist Confession of Faith:

5.4 The almighty power, unsearchable wisdom, and infinite goodness of God, so far manifest themselves in his providence, that his determinate counsel extendeth itself even to the first fall, and all other sinful actions both of angels and men; and that not by a bare permission, which also he most wisely and powerfully boundeth, and otherwise ordereth and governeth, in a manifold dispensation to his most holy ends; yet so, as the sinfulness of their acts proceedeth only from the creatures, and not from God, who, being most holy and righteous, neither is nor can be the author or approver of sin.
( Romans 11:32-34; 2 Samuel 24:1, 1 Chronicles 21:1; 2 Kings 19:28; Psalms 76;10; Genesis 1:20; Isaiah 10:6, 7, 12; Psalms 1:21; 1 John 2:16 )

Did God determine that the Fall would occur? Yes. He did so for His glory, or as the Confession states "his most holy ends". Even though God determined the Fall, only the creatures committed sin, not God.

Did Adam sin willingly? Yes. Adam was created without a sin nature. Unlike you and I, Adam had the ability to sin or not to sin (posse peccare, non posse peccare). Adam sinned with full volition. At no time did his sin escape God's omniscience or His providence.

I do not know how much into the minutia you want to get.

So, God caused sin to be committed for His Glory?

 

[Reformed]

-"that his determinate counsel extendeth itself even to the first fall,'"

So Gods determined counsel extends all the way to the fall. It's fully determined.

Correct.

-"and all other sinful actions both of angels and men; and that not by a bare permission,"

It wasn't determined by simple permission

This is where it is important to distinguish between first and second causes. God does not cause anyone to sin. God does allow man to sin under man's own compulsion and volition under the nature of second causes.

As a Baptist, I do not subscribe wholly to the Westminster Confession of Faith. However, the W.C.F. and the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith are nearly identical in many areas. Regarding the portion of divine providence (which is identical to the portion of the 1689 LBC I quoted previously) A.A. Hodge in his commentary on the W.C.F. writes:

"(a) God gave to all substances, both material and spiritual, a real and permanent existence as entities. (b) They really possess all such active and passive properties as God has severally endued them with. (c) These properties have a real and not merely an apparent efficiency as second causes in producing the effects proper to them. (d) But these created substances, although possessing a real existence exterior to God, and exerting real efficiency as causes, are not selfexistent; that is, the ground of their continued existence is in God and not in them. Though not to be confounded with God, they are not to be separated from him, but "in him live and move, and have all their being." (e) The precise nature of the exercise of divine energy whereby God interpenetrates the universe with his presence, embraces it and all things therein in his power, and upholds them in being, is not revealed, and of course is indiscoverable."

When Hodge writes that there comes a point when we cannot plumb the depth of God's providential knowledge or plan. It leaves both groups (Mongergists and Synergists) with unanswered questions, with both groups accusing the other of appealing to mystery. Matthew 10:29-31 tells us that a sparrow does not fall out of the sky outside of God's providence. It also tells us that the hairs of our head are counted. OTOH, God does not even tempt anyone to sin, nevermind causes them to sin (James 1:13).

-"which also he most wisely and powerfully boundeth, and otherwise ordereth and governeth, in a manifold dispensation to his most holy ends;"

God binds this determined event with "holy ends"

Yes.

-"yet so, as the sinfulness of their acts proceedeth only from the creatures,"

Even though it's fully determined the creature acts on its own

Yes. See my comments above about first and second causes.

The creature acts on its own because God can't be the author of sin.

Yes but with a twist. The creature acts on his own but never outside the providence of God. When Satan approached God about vexing Job, Satan's actions were his own but they occurred within the providence of God as second causes.

I tried to answer your questions as much as possible with yes or no's, only adding commentary for the sake of clarity.

 

[Gorship]

Correct.



This is where it is important to distinguish between first and second causes. God does not cause anyone to sin. God does allow man to sin under man's own compulsion and volition under the nature of second causes.

As a Baptist, I do not subscribe wholly to the Westminster Confession of Faith. However, the W.C.F. and the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith are nearly identical in many areas. Regarding the portion of divine providence (which is identical to the portion of the 1689 LBC I quoted previously) A.A. Hodge in his commentary on the W.C.F. writes:

"(a) God gave to all substances, both material and spiritual, a real and permanent existence as entities. (b) They really possess all such active and passive properties as God has severally endued them with. (c) These properties have a real and not merely an apparent efficiency as second causes in producing the effects proper to them. (d) But these created substances, although possessing a real existence exterior to God, and exerting real efficiency as causes, are not selfexistent; that is, the ground of their continued existence is in God and not in them. Though not to be confounded with God, they are not to be separated from him, but "in him live and move, and have all their being." (e) The precise nature of the exercise of divine energy whereby God interpenetrates the universe with his presence, embraces it and all things therein in his power, and upholds them in being, is not revealed, and of course is indiscoverable."

When Hodge writes that there comes a point when we cannot plumb the depth of God's providential knowledge or plan. It leaves both groups (Mongergists and Synergists) with unanswered questions, with both groups accusing the other of appealing to mystery. Matthew 10:29-31 tells us that a sparrow does not fall out of the sky outside of God's providence. It also tells us that the hairs of our head are counted. OTOH, God does not even tempt anyone to sin, nevermind causes them to sin (James 1:13).



Yes.



Yes. See my comments above about first and second causes.



Yes but with a twist. The creature acts on his own but never outside the providence of God. When Satan approached God about vexing Job, Satan's actions were his own but they occurred within the providence of God as second causes.

I tried to answer your questions as much as possible with yes or no's, only adding commentary for the sake of clarity.

So is it fair to say that

God determined Adam to freely choose sin?

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[Reformed]

So is it fair to say that

God determined Adam to freely choose sin?

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What do you think? I already answered that question.

 

[Revmitchell]

If God caused sin then He would be guilty of sin.

 

[Gorship]

I'm seeking to understand your position if this is a fair representation I'm just looking to verify.

God determined Adam to freely choose sin?

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[Reformed]

I'm seeking to understand your position if this is a fair representation I'm just looking to verify.

God determined Adam to freely choose sin?

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God created Adam with the ability to freely choose to sin. Was Adam's sin within God's divine providence? Yes. So, I can agree with your question of whether God determined Adam to freely choose to sin, just so long as there is not an unspoken part of your question that attributes first cause to God. I think the ramifications of Adam's sin falling outside of God's determinative plan is perilous. It calls into question God's omniscience and His benevolence towards those He chooses to save. I close with one last helpful quote from the 1689 Second London Baptist Confession of Faith:

3.1 God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )

 

[Gorship]

God created Adam with the ability to freely choose to sin. Was Adam's sin within God's divine providence? Yes. So, I can agree with your question of whether God determined Adam to freely choose to sin, just so long as there is not an unspoken part of your question that attributes first cause to God. I think the ramifications of Adam's sin falling outside of God's determinative plan is perilous. It calls into question God's omniscience and His benevolence towards those He chooses to save. I close with one last helpful quote from the 1689 Second London Baptist Confession of Faith:

3.1 God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )

Well this is just it.

I do appreciate your time and well detailed responses.

However it appears to me.

You stand by that God can determine a man to freely choose sin and not be held responsible.

I simply don't see how that's possible. But you are more than free to believe that.

If God operates that way he could have created a world where all people freely choose to love and obey Him.

But rather God gets glory in damning the unrepentent that he could have determined to freely repent.

So therefore God doesn't love everybody.

That's the only way I see this playing out.

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[Reformed]

Well this is just it.

You stand by that God can determine a man to freely choose sin and not be held responsible.

I simply don't see how that's possible. But you are more than free to believe that.

If God operates that way he could have created a world where all people freely choose to love and obey Him.

But rather God gets glory in damning the unrepentent that he could have determined to freely repent.

So therefore God doesn't love everybody.

That's the only way I see this playing out.

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You asked and I answered. I am fine with the both of us disagreeing. See how easy that is?

 

[Gorship]

You asked and I answered. I am fine with the both of us disagreeing. See how easy that is?

Yup all good sir. I just am glad to get a handle on it. Thank you.

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[Reformed]

Yup all good sir. I just am glad to get a handle on it. Thank you.

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You are welcome. I used to get into the back and forth wars on this topic. I was as guilty as anyone when it came to being bombastic. No longer. I am happy to give my answer and then let others decide where to go with the thread. There is no other topic on this board that inflames passions as much as Calvinism vs. Arminianism. I use the analogy of two great armies facing off against each other with a constant, unrelenting artillery attack. The ammunition never runs out and the guns never overheat. Once in a while, someone steps forward under a white flag of truce. He makes it about halfway across the battlefield only to have both armies make him their target and blow him to smithereens. Then they go back to shelling each other again. That is why it is much easier to make your point, bow, and make a graceful exit.

Adieu.

 

[Gorship]

You are welcome. I used to get into the back and forth wars on this topic. I was as guilty as anyone when it came to being bombastic. No longer. I am happy to give my answer and then let others decide where to go with the thread. There is no other topic on this board that inflames passions as much as Calvinism vs. Arminianism. I use the analogy of two great armies facing off against each other with a constant, unrelenting artillery attack. The ammunition never runs out and the guns never overheat. Once in a while, someone steps forward under a white flag of truce. He makes it about halfway across the battlefield only to have both armies make him their target and blow him to smithereens. Then they go back to shelling each other again. That is why it is much easier to make your point, bow, and make a graceful exit.

Adieu.

I don't find these forums the best way to exchange ideas all the time. I genuinely just wanted to get a clear understanding and appreciate your time.

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[The Biblicist]

OK I want to try this again.

Here was my question from the free will thread :

"
May I ask an aside question.

Theres quite a few calvinists in here and I'm getting all sorts of different vibes on how we're describing free will.

So may I ask.

In calvinism. Did God predestinate and predetermine that Adam would fall in the garden.

Or

did Adam do it of his own free choice and God simply forknew the events and called them acceptable.

Did God move the chess piece or oberserve the chess board.

When I read piper he sounds like God moved the chess piece. But I'm getting different impressions from the crowd in here.

"

Piper says things like not one speck of dust hangs without God decreeing it.

Please explain like I'm 5. If you have some secondary or third causes, walk me through them.

Who was the primary first cause to the fall.

Once I understand this point and this point first can I go any further.




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Let me approach this somewhat differently than the traditional approach. Do you believe in eternal security of the believer? Yes or no? Do you believe the believer has freedom of choice to undo his salvation and become eternal condemned? If not, then does not he have free will? Is that determinism? Does the passage "for it is God who worketh in you both to WILL and to DO of HIS GOOD PLEASURE" teach determinism?

You might respond, but he does not want to make such a choice, not because he does not have the power of volition but because God has changed his disposition toward sin and he does not want to make that choice. If that is the case, that is called free agency not free will. His freedom is determined by his ruling disposition.

The only human being that has ever had free will is Adam, and you when you acted in Adam as an inseparable and unified human nature. After the fall, the human nature came under the reign of sin with a disposition of enmity toward God and the law of God and love for darkness and hatred of light. This disposition toward sin does not mean man has lost the power of volition but has lost a disposition for God and godliness. So, it is not that he cannot choose God but WILL NOT due to the reign of sin and disposition toward evil. The new birth simply changes his ruling disposition or want to, so that he loves light rather than darkness.

Thus both lost sinners and saved sinners have free agency but not free will. They choose what is consistent with their ruling disposition. The ruling disposition of lost sinners is the law of sin. The ruling disposition of the saved is "true righteousness and holiness" (Eph. 4:24). Their freedom of choice is restricted within their disposition or want to. The saved man will not choose hell over heaven because his ruling disposition is defined by the law of God written upon his heart = ruling disposition of true righteousness and holiness.

Look at Romans 7:18 and you will see that even the will of a saved man is without power to enact good (even though that is his choice) because even a redeemed man has no inherent power of will to overcome the law of sin but that power is in self-denial through submission to the indwelling Spirit to overcome the power of indwelling sin rather than in will power.

 

[Iconoclast]

Well this is just it.

I do appreciate your time and well detailed responses.

However it appears to me.

You stand by that God can determine a man to freely choose sin and not be held responsible.

I simply don't see how that's possible. But you are more than free to believe that.

If God operates that way he could have created a world where all people freely choose to love and obey Him.

But rather God gets glory in damning the unrepentent that he could have determined to freely repent.

So therefore God doesn't love everybody.

That's the only way I see this playing out.

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Hello Gorship,
Do you believe God is perfect, and all knowing, and all powerful?
Calvinists do, and they trust that the God of all the earth will do right Gen 18:25.
Isa46: 9-11.
With this being true, nothing takes place outside of God's knowledge or control, not one random molecule, or partical is not under God's control.
If anything happens God knows all about it.

 

[Gorship]

Hello Gorship,
Do you believe God is perfect, and all knowing, and all powerful?
Calvinists do, and they trust that the God of all the earth will do right Gen 18:25.
Isa46: 9-11.
With this being true, nothing takes place outside of God's knowledge or control, not one random molecule, or partial is not under God's control.
If anything happens God knows all about it.

Are you insinuating that I don't?

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[Iconoclast]

Are you insinuating that I don't?

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No...I was trying to answer your OP.

Hello Gorship,
Do you believe God is perfect, and all knowing, and all powerful?
Calvinists do, and they trust that the God of all the earth will do right Gen 18:25.
Isa46: 9-11.
With this being true, nothing takes place outside of God's knowledge or control, not one random molecule, or partical is not under God's control.
If anything happens God knows all about it.

Are you insinuating that I don't?

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No I was just offering an answer to the O.P.....you agree with what I posted?

 

[Gorship]

I'm fine with God knowing all things.

Do you not agree with the dialogue I had in this thread?

Is the Calvinist view not:

God is in control of all things and determines events to be done "most freely". Which is simply put compatibilism.

Which comes straight from the London confession.

?

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