Help on OSAS subject and Salvation!!

[Revmitchell]

1 Peter 1:3-5
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time


Salvation is secure always.

Was he saved and fell back into sin? Possible.

However he must be removed from his position until such a time that he has received appropriate counseling and submits to an accountability group made up of ordained men.

 

[BobRyan]

If you assume that "SAVED" means "CUT off from the vine of Christ" as in Romans 11 and "Dead and burned in the fire after cut out of the vine of Christ" as in John 15 --

Then "yeah" God was not speaking of the Gospel at all - just talking about nice places to grow on shrubs.

But if "Context" means anything then we SEE in Romans 11 that the JEWS ARE out - they NEEDED to be SAVED! and WE SEE that the GENTILES DID have a specific salvific evangelistic work being done IN THEIR BEHALF because of that same work. Romans 11 IS ALL ABOUT Evangelism! No mention at all is made of the unchristian Jews "no longer holding church office in the Christian church".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Hope of Glory]

In John 15, Jesus is talking about works; we're not spiritually saved by our works, we don't maintain our spiritual salvation by our works, and we don't prove our salvation by our works.

What are works for? They have to do with our inheritance, not with spiritual salvation. It is a Kingdom message, which is a message of the gospel of the Kingdom, but not a message about the gospel of salvation.

It's talking about abiding and enduring, and thankfully, we don't have to abide or endure to earn our spiritual salvation; that's a gift.

 

[BobRyan]

In John 15 - Christ talks about being taken OUT of Christ, dying and then being burned.

Salvation is NOT "being taken OUT of fellowship with Christ" according to the Bible you can not be saved APART from Christ.

Salvation is NOT " dead and burned in the fire" rather Salvation is being SAVED FROM the fire! Saved FROM death outside of Christ.

this point is basic to salvation.

 

[Hope of Glory]

If we’re unproductive for too long, watch out! At a certain point, we will be cast forth as a branch and burned! We will lose our inheritance, and we won’t get another chance. We’ll still be saved; that can’t be taken away (unless there are contradictions in the Bible), but our crowns and rewards will literally be up in smoke! It’s all about our rewards and crowns! It’s about our inheritance!

That's what the Kingdom is all about. It will be Christ's Kingdom for 1000 years, then he will hand the reins back over to his father.

This entire passage is talking about fruit bearing, not simply being spiritually saved. There is no fruit bearing on our part that is required for that. The Lord did all that was necessary for us to be saved; all we have to do is accept the gift, and he's no indian giver; it's irrevocable.

This entire passage is talking about works. Our spiritual salvation is not based on our own works, whether it be to earn it, keep it, or prove it. Fruit bearing is works!

 

[BobRyan]

If we’re unproductive for too long, watch out! At a certain point, we will be cast forth as a branch and burned! We will lose our inheritance, and we won’t get another chance.

I see - so

Cast out of the vine of Christ. OUTSIDE of Christ!
withered and dead !
THEN burned in the FIRE!

Hmm - good thing that is not the Gospel definition of "saved".

Because that would be "salvation OUTSIDE of Christ" - another gospel.

Even worse it would be the "gospel of death" where SAVED means "dead AND burned".

Hope of Glory

We’ll still be saved;

Well that is man-made tradition anyway.

But the day you find that "dead and burned outside of Christ" is "saved" in the Bible - you will then have it as "a Bible doctrine".

The idea that Alive and INSIDE of Christ is just a different kind of "saved" than "DEAD, and Burned and OUTSIDE of Christ" -- is foreign to the Gospel, foreign to all of scripture.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Solo]

The key to understanding Romans 11, and the entire scope of God's salvation is to recognize what unbelief is. Those Jews who were branches that were broken off were branches that harbored unbelief, and the Gentiles that are now grafted into the vine of God's called, and if they believe they will not be broken off as were the unbelieving Jews. Unbelief is the key word in the Romans 11 scripture. God's salvation is not dependent on man's ability to retain the gift that God gives those who believe, but is dependent upon the work of Jesus Christ.

Those Jews and Gentiles who believe are born of God and are eternally saved by the blood of Jesus whom their faith is in. A believer's faith is not in himself to remain eternally secure, but a believer's faith is in Jesus Christ who gave himself for the salvation of those who do not harbor unbelief. These "believers" are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption; because they were born of the Spirit, and they can not be unborn of the Spirit. The flesh is sold under sin and will continue to be corrupt and mortal until the day of redemption when the flesh will be changed in a twinkling, putting on incorruption and immortality, joining with the born again spirit for eternal life in Christ Jesus.

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. 33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! 34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? 35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? 36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
Romans 11:25-36

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 15:51-57

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
John 3:5-8


God bless each one,
Michael

PS. I used to believe that one could lose their salvation, until God showed me the truth, that salvation is not mine, but His.

 

[BobRyan]

The key to understanding Romans 11, and the entire scope of God's salvation is to recognize what unbelief is. Those Jews who were branches that were broken off were branches that harbored unbelief, and the Gentiles that are now grafted into the vine of God's called, and if they believe they will not be broken off as were the unbelieving Jews. Unbelief is the key word in the Romans 11 scripture.

Saved by "unbelief" through "no faith" is not in the Bible.

Those Jews and Gentiles who believe are born of God

Agreed - but these were broken out of the vine of Christ due to "unbelief".

However as Paul says in Romans 11 "HE IS ABLE to graft them IN AGAIN if they do not continue in UNBELIEF".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Solo]

Saved by "unbelief" through "no faith" is not in the Bible.


Agreed - but these were broken out of the vine of Christ due to "unbelief".

However as Paul says in Romans 11 "HE IS ABLE to graft them IN AGAIN if they do not continue in UNBELIEF".

In Christ,

Bob

Bob,
You have misread my post. Romans 11 speaks of those that are broken off of the vine as being those that are unbelieving Jews. Jesus spoke of these Jews who thought that they were children of God through Abraham as being children of the devil, not children of God.

The Jews who were children of Abraham, but who harbored unbelief were branches that were broken of of the vine. God purposely blinded those Jews so that they could not believe, so that the non-Jewish nations (Gentiles) could be grafted into the vine should they belief. If the Gentiles harbor unbelief as did the natural branches, they too will be broken off and burned.

Once again, let me explain.

All of those branches that are natural branches of the vine are those that are Jews that the Lord God has chosen. God blinded some of those Jews so that they could not believe, so that the Gospel of Jesus Christ could be given to the non-Jewish nations (Gentiles) as well. The non-Jewish nations were grafted into the vine as were the Jews, but only the believing Jews and Gentiles would remain in the vine. All of the unbelieving Jews and Gentiles would be broken off and burned.

The fact that Believers are born of God can not be disputed in the scriptures (See John 3 again); and the fact that Believers are kept saved by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption can not be disputed in the scriptures either. Notice that Jesus questioned Nicodemus as to why he, as a spiritual leader of the Jews, did not understand that one must be born of God in order to see and enter the Kingdom of God.

10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Ephesians 1:10-14

30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Ephesians 4:30



PS. No where in my previous post did I allude to being "Saved by "unbelief" through "no faith" as being in the Bible."


Thanks for your reply. Let me know if you do not understand my teaching about salvation. God bless,
Michael

 

[BobRyan]

Michael -

You seem to be saying two things

#1. You say The Jews that were broken off - were never saved -- in which case "broken off from what" what was the pre-broken off condition? IN the vine of Christ?? Were they LOST but IN the vine of Christ as unbelievers and THEN broken off in your view?

Paul says "He is able to graft them IN AGAIN if they do not CONTINUE in unbelief" - what does IN THE VINE OF CHRIST mean if not SAVED? What does it mean to "Graft them in AGAIN"?


#2. You say that GOD made them fail to believe SO THAT he COULD bring salvation to the Gentiles. Is it your view that God needs Satan to succeed so the Gospel can go forward?
Thanks.

Bob

 

[Solo]

Michael -

You seem to be saying two things

#1. You say The Jews that were broken off - were never saved -- in which case "broken off from what" what was the pre-broken off condition? IN the vine of Christ?? Were they LOST but IN the vine of Christ as unbelievers and THEN broken off in your view?

Paul says "He is able to graft them IN AGAIN if they do not CONTINUE in unbelief" - what does IN THE VINE OF CHRIST mean if not SAVED? What does it mean to "Graft them in AGAIN"?


#2. You say that GOD made them fail to believe SO THAT he COULD bring salvation to the Gentiles. Is it your view that God needs Satan to succeed so the Gospel can go forward?
Thanks.

Bob

Remember the verse that says that many are called and few chosen? (Matthew 20:16, 22:14) The Jews were called and therefore were included in the vine, but since they did not believe, they were broken off, and other branches were then grafted in. Those grafted in branches are the non-Jewish (Gentile) peoples who now have been given the opportunity to believe. If the Gentiles do not believe, then they too will be broken off and cast down to be burned. This scripture in Romans 11 has nothing to do with the eternal security of a believer, but instead speaks of unbelief and what occurs when unbelief is harbored in a Jew or a Gentile.

No one is saved until they believe. After they believe, they are eternally secure in Jesus Christ and his work on the Cross. There is no work that anyone can do to grant them access to the salvation of Jesus Christ. Believing the Holy Spirit as He presents the gospel of Jesus Christ is that which occurs prior to one being born again into the body of Christ. Nothing can separate a believer from Jesus Christ, nothing!

Satan was defeated from the beginning. The only weapons that satan has are lies and deceptions. Do not fall into his lies and deceptions.

What does Ephesians 1:10-14 and Ephesians 4:30 mean to you?

10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Ephesians 1:10-14

30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Ephesians 4:30


Concerning the Lord's command to Isaiah to prophesy that the Jewish peoples understanding be inhibited we will look at the following verses:

10 And the disciples came, and said unto him <JESUS>, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. 12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. 13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. Matthew 13:10-15

Isaiah prophesied in Isaiah 6 about the ears and eyes and understanding of the Jews being stopped from their understanding the truth.

8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.

9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. 10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed. Isaiah 6:9-10

We then go into Romans 11 where the following is pointed toward the same prophesy of Isaiah 6:

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded 8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day. Romans 11:6-8

Read Romans 9 through Romans 11.

30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. Romans 9:30-33

 

[BobRyan]

You seem to be saying two things

#1. You say The Jews that were broken off - were never saved -- in which case "broken off from what" what was the pre-broken off condition? IN the vine of Christ?? Were they LOST but IN the vine of Christ as unbelievers and THEN broken off in your view?

Paul says "He is able to graft them IN AGAIN if they do not CONTINUE in unbelief" - what does IN THE VINE OF CHRIST mean if not SAVED? What does it mean to "Graft them in AGAIN"?


#2. You say that GOD made them fail to believe SO THAT he COULD bring salvation to the Gentiles. Is it your view that God needs Satan to succeed so the Gospel can go forward?
Thanks.

Please answer each question -- in the context of Romans 11 as they are asked. I will post them seperately from each other if you prefer.

 

[Solo]

You seem to be saying two things

#1. You say The Jews that were broken off - were never saved -- in which case "broken off from what" what was the pre-broken off condition? IN the vine of Christ?? Were they LOST but IN the vine of Christ as unbelievers and THEN broken off in your view?



Paul says "He is able to graft them IN AGAIN if they do not CONTINUE in unbelief" - what does IN THE VINE OF CHRIST mean if not SAVED? What does it mean to "Graft them in AGAIN"?




#2. You say that GOD made them fail to believe SO THAT he COULD bring salvation to the Gentiles. Is it your view that God needs Satan to succeed so the Gospel can go forward?
Thanks.

Please answer each question -- in the context of Romans 11 as they are asked. I will post them seperately from each other if you prefer.

Bob,
I will attempt to answer your questions again with as direct of a response as I know how.

Answer to Question 1a -

First of all we are talking about the scriptures of Romans 11, and these scriptures are talking about the Jews being the natural olive tree whereby those unbelieving Jews are branches that are broken off. Are the Jews that did not believe saved? NO. Were they part of the natural olive tree? YES, until they were broken off. Why were the unbelieving Jews, the natural branches broken off? Because they did not believe, due to God's command to keep their eyes and ears inhibited so that their understanding was voided so that the Gentiles could be grafted in. (Read the scriptures that I suggested in the previous posts)

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: Romans 11:20

The Gentiles are of the wild olive tree that are grafted into the natural olive tree. The Gentiles that become believers and are born again as Jesus teaches in John 3, shall be indwelled by the Holy Spirit, and be about the good works of the Father; however, those Gentiles that are unbelievers, they shall be branches that are cut off just as the natural branches were. Also when the natural branches become believers, they will be grafted back into the natural olive tree.

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? Romans 11:21-24

Answer to question 1b -

You are confusing the olive tree that Paul is speaking of in Romans 11, with the vine of Christ. The vine of Christ is not mentioned in Romans 11. Forgive me if I erroneously mentioned vine in previous posts, I should have written olive tree as the scripture denotes in Romans. Sorry.

When one is a branch of the natural olive tree whether a natural branch or a grafted branch, one is able to hear the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ whereby one can believe into salvation. Those that harbor unbelief will be cutoff.

Answer to question 2 -

Satan doesn't succeed at anything in God's plan. He is defeated from before the foundations of the world. He and all those that are his children will be bound in the lake of fire for eternity. There are only two types of children in this world from its creation on; those that are children of God and those that are children of the devil. There are no inbetween, and there are no fence sitters. Either one is a believer and a child of God, or one is an unbeliever and is a child of the devil.

If I can help explain further, let me know.
God bless,
Michael

 

[BobRyan]

#1. You say The Jews that were broken off - were never saved -- in which case "broken off from what" what was the pre-broken off condition? IN the vine of Christ?? Were they LOST but IN the vine of Christ as unbelievers and THEN broken off in your view?



Paul says "He is able to graft them IN AGAIN if they do not CONTINUE in unbelief" - what does IN THE VINE OF CHRIST mean if not SAVED? What does it mean to "Graft them in AGAIN"?

Michael said --
Bob,
I will attempt to answer your questions again with as direct of a response as I know how.

Answer to Question 1a -

First of all we are talking about the scriptures of Romans 11, and these scriptures are talking about the Jews being the natural olive tree whereby those unbelieving Jews are branches that are broken off.

Michael - surely you see what a confusing statement that is. You clalim that BOTH the "Olive TREE" and the "Olive branches" are the Jews and that the Jews (branches) were broken off from the Jews (Olive Tree).

And of course Romans 11 is arguing that the Gentiles are GRAFTED IN to that SAME tree (JEWS??)

I don't see how you escape the John 15 fact "I AM the vine and YOU are the branches" as the proper interpretaion of this added metaphore of tree and branches.

Michael
Are the Jews that did not believe saved? NO. Were they part of the natural olive tree? YES, until they were broken off. Why were the unbelieving Jews, the natural branches broken off? Because they did not believe, due to God's command to keep their eyes and ears inhibited so that their understanding was voided so that the Gentiles could be grafted in. (Read the scriptures that I suggested in the previous posts)

Christ is weeping for the Jewish nation in Luke 19 and in Matt 23 HE states "OH how I WANTED to gather your children and protect them BUT YOU would not". Your argument is that God commanded them to fail SO THAT He could take the Gospel to the Gentiles "AS IF" the OT model for evangelism was not the Jews taking the Gospel to the whole world.

True?

Michael said

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: Romans 11:20

The Gentiles are of the wild olive tree that are grafted into the natural olive tree. The Gentiles that become believers and are born again as Jesus teaches in John 3, shall be indwelled by the Holy Spirit, and be about the good works of the Father;

Is this the point where you admit that the olive tree is Christ??

Michael

however, those Gentiles that are unbelievers, they shall be branches that are cut off just as the natural branches were. Also when the natural branches become believers, they will be grafted back into the natural olive tree.

So "being grafted BACK in AGAIN" is that "saved"??

Being case out -- is that "lost"? Are the Jews that were broken off lost? It would appear that they are.

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? Romans 11:21-24

....

When one is a branch of the natural olive tree whether a natural branch or a grafted branch, one is able to hear the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ whereby one can believe into salvation. Those that harbor unbelief will be cutoff.

OK so you define "in the tree" as LOST but ABLE TO HEAR the message of salvation. In which case you argue that the "YOU" the gentiles that Paul writes to in Romans 11 are NOT Christians (yet they strangely BELIEVE) - they are lost unchurched pagans who are ABLE to hear the Gospel but are not saved. (IN the tree and in danger of being broken off if they do not CONTINUE IN BELIEF)


Then you would have to argue that Paul is saying that Jews who CAN NO LONGER HEAR the Gospel must in that state CHOOSE TO BELIEVE anyway - THEN they will be brought into the condition of being LOST but able to HEAR the gospel "in the tree".

Such a teaching does not exist in all of scripture as I understand it. -- But it is easy to see how that interpretation you have chosen would lead to such a confused result.

I appreciate your being willing to share the details on that with us.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The pre-cross statement of Christ is "God so loved THE WORLD that HE GAVE".

The Pre-cross statement of God is "My house shall be called a house of prayer for ALL nations".

The pre-cross statement of God is "Listen to Me all the ends of the earth and be saved".

The pre-cross statement of God to Abraham is "In you shall ALL nations of the Earth be blessed".

But the Jews were busy destroying the means God setup for evangelizing the world -- thought it meant destroying themselves.

Matt 23
13"But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

14["Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you devour widows' houses, and for a pretense you make long prayers; therefore you will receive greater condemnation.] 15"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.

...

33"You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?

And sow we are given insight as to why the Jewish "nation church" was broken off in order that once again the Gospel should go out to all the World!

 

[BobRyan]

"Belief" in Romans is never used as in "BELIEVE but NOT saved" the way you have defined it in Romans 11 for those who "stand only by their belief" and those "cast out for unbelief... GRAFTED IN AGAIN if they do not CONTINUE in unbelief".

IN the vine -- IN the tree is to stand "by belief" -- "Quite right you stand only by your faith".

For God "So loved the WORLD" John 3 - BEFORE the Cross!!

Rom 10

8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that [b]if you confess[/b] with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and [b]with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. [/b]
11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES[/b] IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

12 For there is [b]no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all[/b], abounding in riches for all who call on Him;
13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED[/b]."
14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?
15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS[/b] OF GOOD THINGS!"
16 However, they did not all heed the good news[/b]; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?"
17 [b]So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have;[/b]
"THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH,
AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD."


In Christ,

Bob

 

[Briguy]

Hi Bob, These verses from Acts show in a practical sense what the olive tree picture is saying. Remember the picture of the "olive tree" is not intended to be doctrine but just to show a truth. The truth being that something different had happened for the Gentiles. That being this:

Hebrews 11: (KJV)
[15] And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
[16] Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
[17] Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
[18] When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

There was a new era, a toal shift in God's dealing with the world, but should we expect less then that with the coming of Christ? No, we shouldn't. Bob, you are complicating a simple concept and an easy to follow "picture"

In Christ,
Brian

 

[BobRyan]

Beware lots of studying the context and detail of Romans 11 coming up --

In Romans 11 Paul “shows” the fall of the Jews from the Vine – of Christ (I am the Vine – you are the Branches) but also shows that God continues to love them and seek them EVEN though they are out of His will and in rebellion – and lost. For outside of Christ there is truly “no salvation”. But “the branches are cast into the fire” in the ultimate sense – if they ‘continue in unbelief”.

“I am speaking to YOU who are gentiles” hmm “How telling” for those who had imagined that this chapter was “only written to Jews” since it deals with the danger of being taken out of the vine of Christ,

Rom 11
13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.


Paul is looking to "motivate" the lost “individuals” among the Jews showing his own Individual willingness to trade places. He does not conclude that God will irresistible force them to be saved. Instead of using God's power to alter the will as the "means" to save them, God uses the appeal to CHOICE,
imperfect "motives" - the APPEAL is made and the hope is that some will take it.

Notice “if THEIR rejection” is “reconciliation of the World” – Paul again shows that he references the Jews “as a group” failing and then addresses the Christian church “The WORLD” as being grafted into the vine of Christ through the Gospel as each person accepts the gift of eternal life – faith in Christ and stands in that faith – that “Belief” as Paul calls it in Romans 11.


Rom 11
15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
16If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17But [b]if some of the branches were broken off[/b], and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.


Clearly this is individuals rejected (as Paul was certainly NOT rejected though a Jew). And it is INDIVIDUAL Gentiles accepted (as ALL pagans were NOT considered Saints by Paul in any sense at all). There are all being grafted “into” the vine of Christ – and as such form “ the church”. They come in based on faith and they remain based on faith.

Just stating the “obvious” here but some have been avoiding this points in desperate attempts to spare the OSAS assumptions that are exposed by Romans 11 while others reject the idea of the ONE Gospel active in the church of God in all ages – grafting all the saints into the SAME vine of Christ.

Rom 11:17-23 - WE are grafted in to the place from which some of those who rebelled fell (as we note in Romans 11). WE are in the same place as THEY - under the ONE Gospel. (Gal 1:6)

Romans 11 points out that we are grafted into the SAME place from which the Jews fell AND that God wants to put the Jews BACK into the place from which they fell.
Not only is this a denial of OSAS it is also a denial that once you fall you can not be re-instated.


Rom 11
18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

24For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?


As you read the details in the text of Romans 11:20 why do you think Paul says "to fear"??

20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

Why does Paul say in Rom 11:21 "Neither will he spare you" who is the "you" and what is the "you" supposed to take away from that instruction?

When Paul says "if you continue in His kindness" is "YOU" a saved person?

When Paul says "otherwise YOU will be cut off" in vs 22 is being "cut off" a saving experience of the saints that they will cary with them into heaven?

In vs 23 is "continuing in unbelief" a sign or reason for them "being cut off" if so - then what were they doing BEFORE they were "cut off for unbelief"? What was their start? believing? OR were they initially brought in "as unbelievers"??

Is "graft them in again" a reference to a saving relationship with Christ being restored - or some more frivolous idea?

Notice the very bright light shining in Romans 11 on the subject of salvation gained vs lost.


Rom 11:
19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20Quite right, [b]they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

They were even MORE compatible with God's plan than we are today. They could only FALL from such an exalted position. In Christ – the vine (John 15) the Jews fell and this is a warning to “us”? Only if OSAS is not true.

Rom 11:
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
[/quote]


They become a warning to US as WE are in THEIR former position.


Rom11:
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
[/quote]

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Being cast out of the vine of Christ in Romans 11 and in John 15 means "being dried up tossed out and burned in the fire" - it DOES NOT mean "going to heaven and being at peace with God".

NEVER do we find "Having been cast out of the vine of Christ we HAVE PEACE with God".

NEVER do we find "those who are saved have NO PEACE with God but rather are cast out of the vine of Christ and burned up".

Simply accepting the word of God in this case - clears up the matter.

 

[BobRyan]

Several posters on this thread have already agreed to the obvious "the unbelieving Jews" in the Romans 11 scenario -- are lost.

Others have already agreed to the obvious point about the BELIEVING Gentiles IN Christ -- they are saved and they STAND only by faith - by continuing in belief and faith.

20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

This is simply impossible to ignore or gloss over.

The case of Acts 19 and the rebaptized BELIEVERS is NOT a case where they were "rejected due to unbelief" - rather they were FULLY accepting and believing at one level of truth - and gladly CONTINUED that walk in the Spirit into the next level of truth.

In Acts 11 we see those who ACCEPT the word of the Angel and follow in obedience also hearing MORE truth. They are not "REJECTED because of unbelief" NOR are they seeking to be "grafted in AGAIN" as if they had been broken off from their former saved state.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Oasis]

J. Jump
1,000 Posts Club Join Date: Oct 2004

Location: Texas
Posts: 1,676



RE: Help on OSAS subject and Salvation!!

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There are some that teach that once a person is saved that are forgiven off ALL their sins past, present and future at the moment of salvation. But that goes against clear teaching of Scripture.

Hi J. Jump,

So you are saying we are not forgiven of all of our sins? Could you expand on your comments? Thanks