Help on OSAS subject and Salvation!!

[Briguy]

Hi Bob, Let me ask you a question. When "you" is used in the Bible, is it generally speaking to individuals or whole groups of people?

How "you" is understood can greatly change the meaning of a scriptual verse or concept. I challange you (individual) to read the verses in question and see who the "you" is. Could the "you" even change its direction in the midst of a verse? maybe or maybe not? You (ind.) need to be careful here Bob and not gloss over this "you" thing as many others do when reading lots of different verses in scripture. What about the rest of you (group), who don't accept OSAS as truth, how do you (group) see the word "you"?

In Christ,
Brian

 

[Hope of Glory]

Could the "you" even change its direction in the midst of a verse?

Well, it's pretty simple and straightforward to tell by simply going to the Greek text, but then that would make you (individual/group:tongue3 have to inspect your firmly held beliefs in many cases.

 

[BobRyan]

Hi Bob, Let me ask you a question. When "you" is used in the Bible, is it generally speaking to individuals or whole groups of people?

How "you" is understood can greatly change the meaning of a scriptual verse or concept. I challange you (individual) to read the verses in question and see who the "you" is. Could the "you" even change its direction in the midst of a verse? maybe or maybe not? You (ind.) need to be careful here Bob and not gloss over this "you" thing as many others do when reading lots of different verses in scripture. What about the rest of you (group), who don't accept OSAS as truth, how do you (group) see the word "you"?

In Christ,
Brian

It can refer to one member in one local church - but it can also mean apply to all mankind. For example in Romans 1 Paul says "THEY are without excuse for the invisible attributes of God... are CLEARLY SEEN in the things that have been made". In this text he is referring to pagans in open rebellion against all that God's Word has said - but does that mean that "only PAGANS can SEE the work of God in nature"? Does it mean "only THEY" can clearly see the invisible attributes of God IN The things that HAVE BEEN MADE??

(To read some Christians that post here you might think that was the case).

The point is that this 'they' does limit the term in some way "those in rebellion" but it would be totally wrong to eisegete this as "only atheist pagans can see this".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Several posters on this thread have already agreed to the obvious "the unbelieving Jews" in the Romans 11 scenario -- are lost.

Others have already agreed to the obvious point about the BELIEVING Gentiles IN Christ -- they are saved and they STAND only by faith - by continuing in belief and faith.

Rom 11
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

This is simply impossible to ignore or gloss over.

The case of Acts 19 and the rebaptized BELIEVERS is NOT a case where they were "rejected due to unbelief" - rather they were FULLY accepting and believing at one level of truth - and gladly CONTINUED that walk in the Spirit into the next level of truth.

In Acts 11 we see those who ACCEPT the word of the Angel and follow in obedience also hearing MORE truth. They are not "REJECTED because of unbelief" NOR are they seeking to be "grafted in AGAIN" as if they had been broken off from their former saved state.

Paul's argument to those WHO DO believe is "you STAND only by your FAITH". Paul never argues that those WHO do place faith in Christ - are lost. NOR does He argue for "the blessed state of being lost from which you do not want to FALL and become LOSTER".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Briguy]

Bob, I just typed a response and it got lost. I will make this very brief. The "you" in question is a whole group in this context. It is not individually people. Isreal's unbelief mad a place for gentiles on the Olive tree. Where once Isreal had the place of honor, now the gentiles occupy that place, until Isreal is someday restored. Isreal's ubelief was a blessing to the rest of the world as it opened up a place on the tree for the Gentiles. The root is God's promises or maybe more directly the covenant God made with Isreal. Gentiles now have access to that covenant. It is a simple word picture showing that reality.

In Christ,
Brian

 

[Hope of Glory]

I will make this very brief. The "you" in question is a whole group in this context.

In English spoken the way God intended, that would be "ya'll".

 

[BobRyan]

Bob, I just typed a response and it got lost. I will make this very brief. The "you" in question is a whole group in this context. It is not individually people. Isreal's unbelief mad a place for gentiles on the Olive tree. Where once Isreal had the place of honor, now the gentiles occupy that place, until Isreal is someday restored. Isreal's ubelief was a blessing to the rest of the world as it opened up a place on the tree for the Gentiles. The root is God's promises or maybe more directly the covenant God made with Isreal. Gentiles now have access to that covenant. It is a simple word picture showing that reality.
Brian

In Rom 11 it is abundantly clear that those IN Christ - those branches that ARE connected -- remain ONLY by faith!

There is no "Faithless" branches as you seem to imagine.

It is also clear that IF any branch is found to be faithless THEN it is REMOVED having lost faith.

And those who are cast out MAY return AGAIN - may be grafted in AGAIN - IF they do not CONTINUE in UNBELIEF.

The text is so clear you have to "arleady be biased against it" to seek to turn it to any other direction.

This is one of the very easy parts of the Bible that some choose to turn so that it fits man-made-traditions dearly held BEFORE coming to the text - held "in spite of the text" not "because of it".

In Christ,

Bob