Have you ever been in a Liturgical Church? (Though techinally there is not such thin as a Non Liturgical church since Liturgy means "the work of the people") I have pastored one Liturgical Baptist Church and the one I am at now is a mixture of Free and Liturgical and there is no funeral music/chanting. I have also been to many of a Episcopal church and never noticed funeral music though we chanted at one or two services which was a unique worship experience. The advantage of liturgical worship in it's many forms (My Church would be considered Low Low Church in comparison to a Anglican Church but slightly high church in comparison to most Baptist churches) is a church service immersed in Scripture and the involvement of the people in worship and yes, you do personally offer praise to God and are inspired by the Lord through such worship as opposed to let's go see the Pastor and the choir perform that is all too common.
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Heretic Hunters #2
- Thread starter rsr
- Start date
Ray Berrian
New Member
Kiffin,
I agree with you. I have pastored both kinds of churches. My last church was high churched and we followed the service in the book, meaning the congregation really participated. It was easy for me because the worship order was similar each Sunday. Sometimes I would make up a Confession of Sin for all of us to pray toward the beginning of the service, which was printed in the bulletin. We used the Apostle's and Nicene Creeds. My experience has been that it is difficult to follow a liturgical service if you are a visitor and not from that kind of background.
That is why I said each person has to find a congregation/denomination were they find meaning for themselves and even toward God.
Only on occasion did I minister Holy Communion at the altar; I prefer this personally, because you get to interact more personally with the communicant. When I received, only at vacation time, I did not care for receiving the elements of bread and wine from a laity/Elder. It was like passing Communion down a theatre seating arrangement. But, again to each his or her own . . .
I agree with you. I have pastored both kinds of churches. My last church was high churched and we followed the service in the book, meaning the congregation really participated. It was easy for me because the worship order was similar each Sunday. Sometimes I would make up a Confession of Sin for all of us to pray toward the beginning of the service, which was printed in the bulletin. We used the Apostle's and Nicene Creeds. My experience has been that it is difficult to follow a liturgical service if you are a visitor and not from that kind of background.
That is why I said each person has to find a congregation/denomination were they find meaning for themselves and even toward God.
Only on occasion did I minister Holy Communion at the altar; I prefer this personally, because you get to interact more personally with the communicant. When I received, only at vacation time, I did not care for receiving the elements of bread and wine from a laity/Elder. It was like passing Communion down a theatre seating arrangement. But, again to each his or her own . . .
Jude posted...
And the organisation that is probably next in line regarding that crazy claim, the Eastern Orthodox Church, is neck and neck with them regarding the overflow of heresy, false doctrine, and idolatry?
The more "scriptures only" we get in the body of Christ...each man and his scriptures...the closer we come to the truth standard.
The proof is in the pudding.
Evangelicalism on one hand...RCC and EOC on the other.
Case closed. Slam dunk.
God bless,
Mike
If that is so, then why is it that the organisation that says the opposite of "each man with the scriptures", the Roman Catholic Church, that being the claim that...
...why are they actually light years beyond anything in the evangelical "scriptures only" camp regarding heresy, false teaching, idolatry?
And the organisation that is probably next in line regarding that crazy claim, the Eastern Orthodox Church, is neck and neck with them regarding the overflow of heresy, false doctrine, and idolatry?
The more "scriptures only" we get in the body of Christ...each man and his scriptures...the closer we come to the truth standard.
The proof is in the pudding.
Evangelicalism on one hand...RCC and EOC on the other.
Case closed. Slam dunk.
God bless,
Mike
Ray Berrian
New Member
It has been said, 'Sorry, no slam-dunk at all. 'Scriptures only' has led to 100's of denominations, each 'doing what is right in their own eyes.'
I think it is safe to say that all evangelical Christian congregations believe in the Deity of Christ, being 'born again', the Second Coming, that Jesus was the Son of man and the Son of God while on the earth, depravity, sanctification, the final judgment and so on. Many denominations are built around some other Scriptural truth that they like to emphasize. For example, holiness of life-the Church of the Nazarene and the Wesleyan Church, and they believe all of the above also. Pentecostal emphasize the 'baptism of the Holy Spirit' as they term it; is this bad? They also believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit as found in I Corinthians chapters 12 & 14. Although the Nazarenes do not believe in the 'gift of tongues' many do have a sensitivity toward those who do claim this personal gift given by God.
Roman Catholics on the other hand, believe in all of the above and some even believe in the gifts of the Spirit. It is also rumored that the pope speaks in a prayer language/the gift of tongues, though I have no proof.
Our problem with Catholicism is that the Magisterium and or the pope has from time to time added doctrines that are not at all even hinted at in the Scriptures. For example: the Assumption, Purgatory, the Infallibility of the pope in his ex cathedras, in his teaching, Transubstantiation, the Immaculate Conception, and so on. We have no level of tolerance for a system of theology that is not founded on the precious Word of God. The Word of God is the Bible and is the inspired truth coming from the Lord through His Godly servants, the apostles and some non-apostolic writers of truth.
Throughout Christian history the popes, like a 'jack-in-the-box' pop up with some new innovative theory that they have force fed their clientele, and cloaking it under the doctrine of infallibility. How clever!
If truth is not found in the Bible it is devilish error, pure and simple.
At least Protestant denominations select some Divine truth that they emphasize to the laity, while Catholicism mixes much Divine truth with the human forging of man made theology that is far from being inspired by the Lord God. This add-on theology is clearly wrong, otherwise,
the Lord would have given all this alleged truth back in the 60-95 A.D.'s all at once, and it would have had God's 'imprimatur' stamped on it in the sacred Scripture.
I think it is safe to say that all evangelical Christian congregations believe in the Deity of Christ, being 'born again', the Second Coming, that Jesus was the Son of man and the Son of God while on the earth, depravity, sanctification, the final judgment and so on. Many denominations are built around some other Scriptural truth that they like to emphasize. For example, holiness of life-the Church of the Nazarene and the Wesleyan Church, and they believe all of the above also. Pentecostal emphasize the 'baptism of the Holy Spirit' as they term it; is this bad? They also believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit as found in I Corinthians chapters 12 & 14. Although the Nazarenes do not believe in the 'gift of tongues' many do have a sensitivity toward those who do claim this personal gift given by God.
Roman Catholics on the other hand, believe in all of the above and some even believe in the gifts of the Spirit. It is also rumored that the pope speaks in a prayer language/the gift of tongues, though I have no proof.
Our problem with Catholicism is that the Magisterium and or the pope has from time to time added doctrines that are not at all even hinted at in the Scriptures. For example: the Assumption, Purgatory, the Infallibility of the pope in his ex cathedras, in his teaching, Transubstantiation, the Immaculate Conception, and so on. We have no level of tolerance for a system of theology that is not founded on the precious Word of God. The Word of God is the Bible and is the inspired truth coming from the Lord through His Godly servants, the apostles and some non-apostolic writers of truth.
Throughout Christian history the popes, like a 'jack-in-the-box' pop up with some new innovative theory that they have force fed their clientele, and cloaking it under the doctrine of infallibility. How clever!
If truth is not found in the Bible it is devilish error, pure and simple.
At least Protestant denominations select some Divine truth that they emphasize to the laity, while Catholicism mixes much Divine truth with the human forging of man made theology that is far from being inspired by the Lord God. This add-on theology is clearly wrong, otherwise,
the Lord would have given all this alleged truth back in the 60-95 A.D.'s all at once, and it would have had God's 'imprimatur' stamped on it in the sacred Scripture.
Ray Berrian
New Member
You spoke of Jim Bakker and Richard Dorch's land and buildings being empty. I was sure that enterprise was sold to Morris Cerillio, another Pentecostal preacher and his son. Did anyone else here it as I am understanding it?
I visited there one time while pastoring in Concord, N.C. I saw the stage setting and kind of wished that I had a huge ministry like Pastor Jim was experiencing. When his life fell apart I was thankful to the Lord for the smaller ministry that He had given me to care for right where I lived.
At least Bakker repented and is trying to serve the Lord again. But, as you said, he did get his mind and heart of his greatness and the money, and God had to knock him down to where He wanted him to be.
I visited there one time while pastoring in Concord, N.C. I saw the stage setting and kind of wished that I had a huge ministry like Pastor Jim was experiencing. When his life fell apart I was thankful to the Lord for the smaller ministry that He had given me to care for right where I lived.
At least Bakker repented and is trying to serve the Lord again. But, as you said, he did get his mind and heart of his greatness and the money, and God had to knock him down to where He wanted him to be.
S
SeekingAfterHim
Guest
He bought the Television Network, was called The Insperational Network, Now called INSP.
The rest went to backruptcy court and now sits empty and idle, they are trying to sell parts of it off, some kookaroo is trying to raise funds to buy the rest of the properity and restore heritage USA. I think he's got a snowballs chance in Hades to be able to do it. God distroyed that ministry for a purpose, as a wake up call to the believers. and it will stand as a reminder of that.
Seeking after him
Ray Berrian
New Member
seekingforHim,
Thanks for the information.
Thanks for the information.
S
SeekingAfterHim
Guest
Ray,
No problem Bro, anytime.
No problem Bro, anytime.
As the great "Catholic/Orthodox" church had strayed into the doctrine Ray mentioned, "reformers" began trying to scale back the added doctrines. Most focused on some doctrines, but missed others. Like the first Protestant groups holding on to Catholic notions of sacraments and a State Church. So then new groups came to restore more truths. This is how we got the hundreds of denominations. Then some tried to go even further in the game, regarding some doctrines that were orthodox as false. So here we got all the "aberrant" sects and cults. But this does not prove the RCC/EOC right all along by default. As I had said, it was those bodies who got the ball rolling by adding so much corrupt doctrine and practice in the first place.
Jude,
One church...all the born again people.
And we, in spite of different branches and different things we emphasise, are in agreement regarding essential things, or a cult in easilly identified.(with no "headquarters" in Rome doing our thinking for us)
At the same time we are instructed by God to "let your brother be fully convinced in his own mind, who are you to judge your brother" regarding the other differences. Why is it a strange thing to you that there are differences, when God tells us to expect differences...and He instructs us regarding how to deal with them?
God bless,
Mike
But only one church. Its so easy to slip into this erroneous idea of lots and lots of churches. God has only had one church, thats all He has now, and thats all He will ever have.
One church...all the born again people.
And we, in spite of different branches and different things we emphasise, are in agreement regarding essential things, or a cult in easilly identified.(with no "headquarters" in Rome doing our thinking for us)
At the same time we are instructed by God to "let your brother be fully convinced in his own mind, who are you to judge your brother" regarding the other differences. Why is it a strange thing to you that there are differences, when God tells us to expect differences...and He instructs us regarding how to deal with them?
My goodness, I could post some EOC prayers that would curl your blood. I didnt think it would be possible to be more heretical regarding idolatrous Mary worship than the RCC, but I think the EOC manages to go beyond them. Their "image and icon" idolatry is as strong as the RCC. Their view of the writings of the "church fathers" is as problematic as the RCC's heretical view of the "teaching majesterium". And they seem to be as strong as the RCC regarding the denial of Gods truth regarding justification by faith alone, and their affirmation of the heretical idea of salvation by works.
God bless,
Mike
How can 'one Church' have so-many differences? How can 'one Church' believe, for example, in 'once saved always saved,' while another rejects it? How can 'one church' preach 'Memorialism' while others reject it?
The 'headquarters in Rome' argument is rather-silly. Every denomination has 'headquarters', and each has a list of essentials that must be believed if one is to be a member or a clergy.
Salvation by works 'heretical'? Depends on how one defines 'works'...and yes, in Scripture, 'works' have different meanings. Yet...
James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
BTW, PLEASE post an Orthodox prayer that would 'curl my blood'. PLEASE!
The 'headquarters in Rome' argument is rather-silly. Every denomination has 'headquarters', and each has a list of essentials that must be believed if one is to be a member or a clergy.
Salvation by works 'heretical'? Depends on how one defines 'works'...and yes, in Scripture, 'works' have different meanings. Yet...
James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
BTW, PLEASE post an Orthodox prayer that would 'curl my blood'. PLEASE!
Ray Berrian
New Member
D28guy,
I totally agree with you post.
Many claim to have a piece of Jesus' Cross. If they were all really pieces of it--we would have enough lumber to cross the entire state of Pennsylvania with 2 X 4's, end to end.
These verses explain Who is to be worshipped. {Revelation 3:9; 4:10; 14:7; 15:4; 19:10; 22:9.
Revelation was written in 95 A.D., well after Jesus' ascension into Heaven. Do you not find it interesting that God does not tell the readers of this book to offer adoration to Mary? The Apostle John always commands us to ' . . . worship God.' [Revelation 22:9f]
I totally agree with you post.
Many claim to have a piece of Jesus' Cross. If they were all really pieces of it--we would have enough lumber to cross the entire state of Pennsylvania with 2 X 4's, end to end.
These verses explain Who is to be worshipped. {Revelation 3:9; 4:10; 14:7; 15:4; 19:10; 22:9.
Revelation was written in 95 A.D., well after Jesus' ascension into Heaven. Do you not find it interesting that God does not tell the readers of this book to offer adoration to Mary? The Apostle John always commands us to ' . . . worship God.' [Revelation 22:9f]
Jude,
"Let your brother be fully convinced in his own mind...who are you to judge your brother?"
...and because none of us on this side of eternity have perfect hearing. We are all "seeing through a glass dimly". But as long as we all stick to the scriptures alone we will be OK. The instant we deviate from the scriptures, we are headed for big trouble.
Jim Jones taught that.
David Koresh taught that.
The Jehovahs Witnesses teach that.
The Roman Catholic church teaches that.
According to the Lord Jesus Christ, the tax collector in the Temple prayed, "God be merciful to me a sinner" and He was justified.
The pharisee included his works, and even gave God credit for them..."God, I thank you that I am not like other men, like this sinner. I tithe, give to the por, etc"
According to the Lord Jesus Christ, he was not justified because he added works...even giving God credit for them...to faith alone, as the tax collector trusted in.
It couldnt be clearer...
"For it is by grace that you are saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest anyone should boast"
Grace is included, faith is [/b]included, works of any kind are excluded, and salvation is the result.
Of course that is just one passage among hundreds.
God feels so strongly about that they he curses any "gospel" that adds works to faith.
God bless,
Mike
Because God said we would...
"Let your brother be fully convinced in his own mind...who are you to judge your brother?"
...and because none of us on this side of eternity have perfect hearing. We are all "seeing through a glass dimly". But as long as we all stick to the scriptures alone we will be OK. The instant we deviate from the scriptures, we are headed for big trouble.
Because none of us have perfect hearing. Both of those groups however will tell a lost man that Jesus is their only hope for salvation, and that if he will ebrace the Lord Jesus Christ through faith alone, he will be saved.
Because none of us has perfect hearing.
No its not.
But only cultic groups teach they their hiearchy(or leader), and only their hiearchy(or leader), is protected from any error by God Himself, and that the "laity" must bow unquestingly to their heirachies(or leaders) interpretations.
Jim Jones taught that.
David Koresh taught that.
The Jehovahs Witnesses teach that.
The Roman Catholic church teaches that.
God defines it as anything concievable that we do beyond embracing Christ through faith alone.
According to the Lord Jesus Christ, the tax collector in the Temple prayed, "God be merciful to me a sinner" and He was justified.
The pharisee included his works, and even gave God credit for them..."God, I thank you that I am not like other men, like this sinner. I tithe, give to the por, etc"
According to the Lord Jesus Christ, he was not justified because he added works...even giving God credit for them...to faith alone, as the tax collector trusted in.
It couldnt be clearer...
"For it is by grace that you are saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest anyone should boast"
Grace is included, faith is [/b]included, works of any kind are excluded, and salvation is the result.
Of course that is just one passage among hundreds.
I posted how that fits perfectly with justification by faith alone on either this thread of the one about the masonic lodge. That scripture fits like a hand in a glove with the truth that we are justified through faith, and faith alone.
God feels so strongly about that they he curses any "gospel" that adds works to faith.
God bless,
Mike
Jude,
Heres a short one...
"O gracious Mother of the gracious God, O most pure and blessed Mary, the Mother of God, pour the mercy of thy Son and our God upon my impassionate soul, and with thine intercessions set me unto good deeds, that I may pass the rest of my life without blemish and, with thine aid, attain heaven. O Virgin mother of God, the only one who art pure and blessed. O Queen of the Heavenly Host, Defender of our souls: being delivered from evil, as thy servants, O Mother of God, we offer unto thee the hymns of thanks and victory; but as thou hast power invincible, deliver us from all calamity, that we may cry unto thee: Rejoice, O ever-Virgin Bride!"
May Almighty God have mercy.
Link...http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/prayers/panagia.html
Blessings,
Mike
OK.
Heres a short one...
"O gracious Mother of the gracious God, O most pure and blessed Mary, the Mother of God, pour the mercy of thy Son and our God upon my impassionate soul, and with thine intercessions set me unto good deeds, that I may pass the rest of my life without blemish and, with thine aid, attain heaven. O Virgin mother of God, the only one who art pure and blessed. O Queen of the Heavenly Host, Defender of our souls: being delivered from evil, as thy servants, O Mother of God, we offer unto thee the hymns of thanks and victory; but as thou hast power invincible, deliver us from all calamity, that we may cry unto thee: Rejoice, O ever-Virgin Bride!"
May Almighty God have mercy.
Link...http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/prayers/panagia.html
Blessings,
Mike
"How can 'one Church' have so-many differences?
D28 responded..
"Let your brother be fully convinced in his own mind...who are you to judge your brother?"
...and because none of us on this side of eternity have perfect hearing. We are all "seeing through a glass dimly". But as long as we all stick to the scriptures alone we will be OK. The instant we deviate from the scriptures, we are headed for big trouble."
I respond...
God said there would be confusion? God said there would be differences as serious as I've stated above?
Eph.4 3-6 Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit — just as you were called to one hope when you were called — one Lord, ONE FAITH, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
"How can 'one Church' believe, for example, in 'once saved always saved,' while another rejects it?"
D28 responded...
"Because none of us have perfect hearing."
I respond...
None? Maybe some DO and many don't. Is that all you have to say? "None of us have perfect hearing"? Are you really satisified with this answer? There are serious differences here, and you are content to say, "Ah shucks, none of us has perfect hearin'"? Nonsense.
I said...
"The 'headquarters in Rome' argument is rather-silly.
D28 said,
"No its not."
I respond...
Um, actually it is. Every Church has it's 'headquarters'. Every church has it's core doctrine. Every church tells it's members what they must believe.
D28 said, "But only cultic groups teach they their hiearchy(or leader), and only their hiearchy(or leader), is protected from any error by God Himself, and that the "laity" must bow unquestingly to their heirachies(or leaders) interpretations.
Jim Jones taught that.
David Koresh taught that.
The Jehovahs Witnesses teach that.
The Roman Catholic church teaches that."
I respond,
Actually Bishops taught that too. And of course, most 'non-denom's do too. But what you fail to see it that YOU (or your local church) are yourself a hierarchy in your own eyes. Poor/evil/inadequate leadership doesn't negate the need for leadership.
D28 said,
"According to the Lord Jesus Christ, the tax collector in the Temple prayed, "God be merciful to me a sinner" and He was justified." It couldnt be clearer..."
I respond...
At that point, he was forgiven. But, what he DID after that would tell us whether he entered heaven or not. Our 'doing', our 'works' ARE a part of the salvation process.
Mark 10.21 Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
D28 said,
[/qb][/QUOTE]"For it is by grace that you are saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest anyone should boast"
Grace is included, faith is [/b]included, works of any kind are excluded, and salvation is the result.
Of course that is just one passage among hundreds."
I respond...
James 2.24 "...and not by faith alone."
Phil. 2.12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed — not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence — continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling...
James 2.12-13 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful.
Heb. 12.14 Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.
Rom. 2.5-10 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. God “will give to each person according to what he has done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile...
Heb. 2.1 We must pay more careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away.
Heb.3.6 But Christ is faithful as a son over God’s house. And we are his house, IF we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast...
Heb. 3.7-11 So, as the Holy Spirit says: “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion, during the time of testing in the desert, where your fathers tested and tried me and for forty years saw what I did. That is why I was angry with that generation, and I said, ‘Their hearts are always going astray, and they have not known my ways.’ 1So I declared on oath in my anger, ‘They shall never enter my rest.’”...
Heb. 3.12-15 See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. We have come to share in Christ IF WE HOLD FIRMLY TO THE END the confidence we had at first. As has just been said: “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion.” ...
Heb.4.9-11 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his. Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience...
Heb.6.4-6 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace...
Heb.10.26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,
Heb. 10.35-36 So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.
Heb. 11.4 By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did...
Heb. 11.7 By faith Noah... built an ark
Heb. 11.8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went,...made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise....
Heb. 11.17 By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice....
Heb. 11.23 By faith Moses’ parents hid him for three months...
Heb. 11.24 By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh’s daughter....
Heb. 11.27 By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king’s anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible....
Heb. 11.29 By faith the people passed through the Red Sea...
Heb. 11.30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell, after the people had marched around them for seven days.
Heb. 11.31 By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.
ALL THESE ACTS OF FAITH WERE WORKS...
Mark 13.13 All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
Rev. 2.26 To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations —
Of course, there are hundreds more
D28 said,
"God feels so strongly about that they he curses any "gospel" that adds works to faith."
I conclude...
Curses? Unbelievable...
Matt. 25.19-21 “After a long time the master of those servants returned and settled accounts with them. The man who had received the five talents brought the other five. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘you entrusted me with five talents. See, I have gained five more.’ “His master replied, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master’s happiness!’
Matt. 25.34-36 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
D28 said, 'depart from the Scriptures we are in trouble.'
I respond...
Yes, I agree, BUT...the Church is divided, and many of them have (or had)a high-view of Scripture. Your solution is short-sighted.
[ April 25, 2004, 12:51 AM: Message edited by: Jude ]
D28 responded..
"Let your brother be fully convinced in his own mind...who are you to judge your brother?"
...and because none of us on this side of eternity have perfect hearing. We are all "seeing through a glass dimly". But as long as we all stick to the scriptures alone we will be OK. The instant we deviate from the scriptures, we are headed for big trouble."
I respond...
God said there would be confusion? God said there would be differences as serious as I've stated above?
Eph.4 3-6 Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit — just as you were called to one hope when you were called — one Lord, ONE FAITH, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
"How can 'one Church' believe, for example, in 'once saved always saved,' while another rejects it?"
D28 responded...
"Because none of us have perfect hearing."
I respond...
None? Maybe some DO and many don't. Is that all you have to say? "None of us have perfect hearing"? Are you really satisified with this answer? There are serious differences here, and you are content to say, "Ah shucks, none of us has perfect hearin'"? Nonsense.
I said...
"The 'headquarters in Rome' argument is rather-silly.
D28 said,
"No its not."
I respond...
Um, actually it is. Every Church has it's 'headquarters'. Every church has it's core doctrine. Every church tells it's members what they must believe.
D28 said, "But only cultic groups teach they their hiearchy(or leader), and only their hiearchy(or leader), is protected from any error by God Himself, and that the "laity" must bow unquestingly to their heirachies(or leaders) interpretations.
Jim Jones taught that.
David Koresh taught that.
The Jehovahs Witnesses teach that.
The Roman Catholic church teaches that."
I respond,
Actually Bishops taught that too. And of course, most 'non-denom's do too. But what you fail to see it that YOU (or your local church) are yourself a hierarchy in your own eyes. Poor/evil/inadequate leadership doesn't negate the need for leadership.
D28 said,
"According to the Lord Jesus Christ, the tax collector in the Temple prayed, "God be merciful to me a sinner" and He was justified." It couldnt be clearer..."
I respond...
At that point, he was forgiven. But, what he DID after that would tell us whether he entered heaven or not. Our 'doing', our 'works' ARE a part of the salvation process.
Mark 10.21 Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
D28 said,
[/qb][/QUOTE]"For it is by grace that you are saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest anyone should boast"
Grace is included, faith is [/b]included, works of any kind are excluded, and salvation is the result.
Of course that is just one passage among hundreds."
I respond...
James 2.24 "...and not by faith alone."
Phil. 2.12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed — not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence — continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling...
James 2.12-13 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful.
Heb. 12.14 Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.
Rom. 2.5-10 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. God “will give to each person according to what he has done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile...
Heb. 2.1 We must pay more careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away.
Heb.3.6 But Christ is faithful as a son over God’s house. And we are his house, IF we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast...
Heb. 3.7-11 So, as the Holy Spirit says: “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion, during the time of testing in the desert, where your fathers tested and tried me and for forty years saw what I did. That is why I was angry with that generation, and I said, ‘Their hearts are always going astray, and they have not known my ways.’ 1So I declared on oath in my anger, ‘They shall never enter my rest.’”...
Heb. 3.12-15 See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. We have come to share in Christ IF WE HOLD FIRMLY TO THE END the confidence we had at first. As has just been said: “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion.” ...
Heb.4.9-11 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his. Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience...
Heb.6.4-6 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace...
Heb.10.26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,
Heb. 10.35-36 So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.
Heb. 11.4 By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did...
Heb. 11.7 By faith Noah... built an ark
Heb. 11.8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went,...made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise....
Heb. 11.17 By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice....
Heb. 11.23 By faith Moses’ parents hid him for three months...
Heb. 11.24 By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh’s daughter....
Heb. 11.27 By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king’s anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible....
Heb. 11.29 By faith the people passed through the Red Sea...
Heb. 11.30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell, after the people had marched around them for seven days.
Heb. 11.31 By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.
ALL THESE ACTS OF FAITH WERE WORKS...
Mark 13.13 All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
Rev. 2.26 To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations —
Of course, there are hundreds more
D28 said,
"God feels so strongly about that they he curses any "gospel" that adds works to faith."
I conclude...
Curses? Unbelievable...
Matt. 25.19-21 “After a long time the master of those servants returned and settled accounts with them. The man who had received the five talents brought the other five. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘you entrusted me with five talents. See, I have gained five more.’ “His master replied, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master’s happiness!’
Matt. 25.34-36 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
D28 said, 'depart from the Scriptures we are in trouble.'
I respond...
Yes, I agree, BUT...the Church is divided, and many of them have (or had)a high-view of Scripture. Your solution is short-sighted.
[ April 25, 2004, 12:51 AM: Message edited by: Jude ]
Jude,
I said...
You...
Nobody has ever done Gods will perfectly, or heard Gods voice perfectly, other than Jesus Christ of course. Thats why its so important that we do not stray from Gods scriptures alone as our truth source. As long as we stay close to the scriptures, we will be fine. When we dont, disaster looms...simply look at the RCC, EOC, and to a lesser extent, liberal protestantism.
None do...other than Jesus Christ.
Please quote me accuretly.
I have fellowshipped in Assembly of God fellowships, Southern Baptist fellowships, independant Baptist ones, non-denominational fellowships, "Cambellite" fellowships, charismatic fellowships, house fellowships, a fellowship that rented a holiday inn meeting room twice weekly, and one that met in a converted movie theatre.
I was very much blessed of God in many ways, to varying degrees, in all of those places, and in every one of those fellowships we all believed that Jesus Christ was the "way the truth and the life" and that "no man comes to the Father but by him", that a person is justified by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, that the scriptures are our only truth source, that the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are all God, that there is a coming judgment and only born of the Spirit christians have any hope on the other side of that, and that we are all called to share the gospel with others and make disciples.
But in multitudes of other areas, there were people in all those fellowships who had different convictions and beliefs, just as God told us there would be. We disagreed on many other issues. None were in any danger of being "excommunicated" or were ever told to "get with the program" and believe as headquarters commands them to believe. None of those disagreements effected our "unity" or our love for one another in even the tiniest bit.
I said...
The fruit/evidence/works that a believer has in his/her life flow from the new life they have recieved, but they have no part in gaining that new life.
To...apparently...support your works based salvation system...which God curses in Galaciens...you posted these scriptures...
This is such a foundational thing we are discussing, and to err in this area can have such tragic consequences.
God bless,
Mike
I said...
And you said...
Noooo...God told us in advance that there would be different convictions regarding some things. He told us to expect it, and He gave us instructions regarding how to deal with it.
You...
Me...
You now...
Exactly.
Nobody has ever done Gods will perfectly, or heard Gods voice perfectly, other than Jesus Christ of course. Thats why its so important that we do not stray from Gods scriptures alone as our truth source. As long as we stay close to the scriptures, we will be fine. When we dont, disaster looms...simply look at the RCC, EOC, and to a lesser extent, liberal protestantism.
No.
None do...other than Jesus Christ.
Completly.
I didnt say "Aw Shucks", you did. And I didnt say "hearin", I said "hearing".
Please quote me accuretly.
Gods truth is not nonsense, but you are entitled to your opinion.
Where in the world do you get this stuff? I have been a part of Gods one church...the Body of Christ...for 22 years now and I have never been in any fellowship where every single person believed exactly the same regarding everything. If I ever where in a cult like that I would flee that Satanic place immedietly.
I have fellowshipped in Assembly of God fellowships, Southern Baptist fellowships, independant Baptist ones, non-denominational fellowships, "Cambellite" fellowships, charismatic fellowships, house fellowships, a fellowship that rented a holiday inn meeting room twice weekly, and one that met in a converted movie theatre.
I was very much blessed of God in many ways, to varying degrees, in all of those places, and in every one of those fellowships we all believed that Jesus Christ was the "way the truth and the life" and that "no man comes to the Father but by him", that a person is justified by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, that the scriptures are our only truth source, that the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are all God, that there is a coming judgment and only born of the Spirit christians have any hope on the other side of that, and that we are all called to share the gospel with others and make disciples.
But in multitudes of other areas, there were people in all those fellowships who had different convictions and beliefs, just as God told us there would be. We disagreed on many other issues. None were in any danger of being "excommunicated" or were ever told to "get with the program" and believe as headquarters commands them to believe. None of those disagreements effected our "unity" or our love for one another in even the tiniest bit.
I said...
And you said...
Because he was justified at that point, he was completly forgiven.
What he did after that had absolutly nothing to do with whether he entered heaven or not. We are justified before God by faith alone. The scriptures tell us that at the moment we embrace Christ through faith alone we are "sealed" into the body of Christ, with the Holy Spirit being the "guarentee", until "the redemption of the purchased posession". At that moment, according to God, we are "translated out of darkness", and "into the kingdom of his Son" We have instantly passed from "death unto life" and from "darkness" to "light", and we are secured for heaven.
The fruit/evidence/works that a believer has in his/her life flow from the new life they have recieved, but they have no part in gaining that new life.
To...apparently...support your works based salvation system...which God curses in Galaciens...you posted these scriptures...
Jude, it is so *exceedingly* important that we interpret the scriptures in light of the *whole* of the scriptures. If we fail to do that we end up with a mass of contradictions and confusion. The scriptures are God breathed and will...and must...fit together like a hand in a glove. For every *one* scripture that seems, or appears, to teach salvation by works, there are multitudes that thunder the truth of justification by faith alone.home in response to that error.
This is such a foundational thing we are discussing, and to err in this area can have such tragic consequences.
God bless,
Mike
"Nobody has ever done Gods will perfectly, or heard Gods voice perfectly, other than Jesus Christ of course. Thats why its so important that we do not stray from Gods scriptures alone as our truth source. As long as we stay close to the scriptures, we will be fine. When we dont, disaster looms...simply look at the RCC, EOC, and to a lesser extent, liberal protestantism."
Depends on how you define 'perfectly'. There were -in Scripture- people who were 'righteous' in God's eyes. And you're going to tell me that the early Apostolic community didn't 'hear God's voice' perfectly? The issue is not 'hearing God's voice', but Scriptural interpretation. Staying close to Scripture is a good thing, but having proper interpretation is a better thing. I would not say that 'liberal protestantism' is a 'lesser' compared to the RCC or the EOC. Liberal Protestantism (a logical outgrowth of Protestantism's 'every man a pope' scheme) is utterly apostate. There are doctrines of the RCC that they need to repent of as well. BUt, many Protestants are in serious error in regard to their beliefs, most-especially sola scriptura, sola fide, memorialism, imputed righteousness, etc.
You said, "Noooo...God told us in advance that there would be different convictions regarding some things. He told us to expect it, and He gave us instructions regarding how to deal with it."
Different convictions on 'some things' cannot possibly include matters as serious as the ones described above. THESE differences divide us. Somebody IS wrong. I just choose to believe that some of us are -more- right than others. I see no basis for many of the Protestant doctrines in the first 1500 years of the church. I still believe that the solution to the dilemma comes from St Vincent of Lerins -check the 'Catholicity key to Church Unity' Thread.
You said, "I have fellowshipped in Assembly of God fellowships, Southern Baptist fellowships, independant Baptist ones, non-denominational fellowships, "Cambellite" fellowships, charismatic fellowships, house fellowships, a fellowship that rented a holiday inn meeting room twice weekly, and one that met in a converted movie theatre."
Let's see. The Assembly of God INSISTS that it's clergy be 'pre-millenial' in view. It insists that the ONLY evidence of the Holy Spirit's presence in a believer is TONGUES. Baptists would reject that, as would most others. Most Southern Baptists dismiss Charismatic gifts. Independent Baptists are those -I assume- who couldn't get along with the Southern or American Baptists. The other groups, I really couldn't say what they believe but I'll BET they had a 'statement of beliefs'. While all of them probably had a high view of Scripture -which I do as well- they all had their different 'take' on certain doctrines. Which one was right? Were any right? How can you know? By Scripture alone? No, it's not that easy. If it were, all conservative Christians would be under 'one roof'.
Your view of 'faith alone' I find most-disturbing. Frankly, it borders on heresy. How can our Lord write a letter to the Ephesian Church (Rev.2.5)and threaten to 'take away' it's lampstand if it doesn't repent if OSAS is true? How can St Paul WARN the Corinthian Church (1 Cor.6.9-11)of things that will deny them salvation if OSAS is true? 'Righteous living/works' KEEP us in a state of Grace.
Jn.15.10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love.
"Works" that involve Jewish Ceremonial, "Works" that seek to 'obligate' God (Rom.4), "Works" done in our own wisdom and strength profit nothing. But 'annointed' "works", "works" done by Grace DO profit us...they are the means by which we become holy, means by which the 'old man' is put away. I have cited several examples of the necessity of us DOING something...
Your view of 'faith alone' has led to a rather anemic Church in America. This view led (a Lutheran!) Bonhoeffer to write eloquently about 'cheap grace'. No wonder a recent Gallop Poll showed relatively little difference between American Christians and non-Christians in regard to lifestyle habits and philosophy. We need to be HOLY if we are to gain the Kingdom of heaven--even John Wesley knew that. In a recent Bible study I asked, "What would the Church look like in America if it took Jesus' Lordship seriously?" A visitor said, "Oh, I don't think in those terms. I'm under the blood, that's all that matters." There was the problem that I've seen in the American Church, the logical conclusion of 'Eternal Security.' Now of course, the final basis for evaluating this doctrine is Scripture (and in my Anglican understanding, 'Tradition'), and in both cases, I find NO Scriptural warrant for 'Eternal Security' nor do I find any Scriptural warrant for 'Sola Fide'. And I certainly don't find warrant for either in the writings/teachings of the early Church Fathers, or in the first 1500 years of the church.
The tragic consequences of 'faith alone' and 'Scripture alone' are there for those who will see. I would challenge you to read the writings of the Early Church Fathers (the Disciples of the Disciples). See if you find ANY support for what you believe in their writings. See how they interpreted key Scripture passages regarding these issues.
Depends on how you define 'perfectly'. There were -in Scripture- people who were 'righteous' in God's eyes. And you're going to tell me that the early Apostolic community didn't 'hear God's voice' perfectly? The issue is not 'hearing God's voice', but Scriptural interpretation. Staying close to Scripture is a good thing, but having proper interpretation is a better thing. I would not say that 'liberal protestantism' is a 'lesser' compared to the RCC or the EOC. Liberal Protestantism (a logical outgrowth of Protestantism's 'every man a pope' scheme) is utterly apostate. There are doctrines of the RCC that they need to repent of as well. BUt, many Protestants are in serious error in regard to their beliefs, most-especially sola scriptura, sola fide, memorialism, imputed righteousness, etc.
You said, "Noooo...God told us in advance that there would be different convictions regarding some things. He told us to expect it, and He gave us instructions regarding how to deal with it."
Different convictions on 'some things' cannot possibly include matters as serious as the ones described above. THESE differences divide us. Somebody IS wrong. I just choose to believe that some of us are -more- right than others. I see no basis for many of the Protestant doctrines in the first 1500 years of the church. I still believe that the solution to the dilemma comes from St Vincent of Lerins -check the 'Catholicity key to Church Unity' Thread.
You said, "I have fellowshipped in Assembly of God fellowships, Southern Baptist fellowships, independant Baptist ones, non-denominational fellowships, "Cambellite" fellowships, charismatic fellowships, house fellowships, a fellowship that rented a holiday inn meeting room twice weekly, and one that met in a converted movie theatre."
Let's see. The Assembly of God INSISTS that it's clergy be 'pre-millenial' in view. It insists that the ONLY evidence of the Holy Spirit's presence in a believer is TONGUES. Baptists would reject that, as would most others. Most Southern Baptists dismiss Charismatic gifts. Independent Baptists are those -I assume- who couldn't get along with the Southern or American Baptists. The other groups, I really couldn't say what they believe but I'll BET they had a 'statement of beliefs'. While all of them probably had a high view of Scripture -which I do as well- they all had their different 'take' on certain doctrines. Which one was right? Were any right? How can you know? By Scripture alone? No, it's not that easy. If it were, all conservative Christians would be under 'one roof'.
Your view of 'faith alone' I find most-disturbing. Frankly, it borders on heresy. How can our Lord write a letter to the Ephesian Church (Rev.2.5)and threaten to 'take away' it's lampstand if it doesn't repent if OSAS is true? How can St Paul WARN the Corinthian Church (1 Cor.6.9-11)of things that will deny them salvation if OSAS is true? 'Righteous living/works' KEEP us in a state of Grace.
Jn.15.10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love.
"Works" that involve Jewish Ceremonial, "Works" that seek to 'obligate' God (Rom.4), "Works" done in our own wisdom and strength profit nothing. But 'annointed' "works", "works" done by Grace DO profit us...they are the means by which we become holy, means by which the 'old man' is put away. I have cited several examples of the necessity of us DOING something...
Your view of 'faith alone' has led to a rather anemic Church in America. This view led (a Lutheran!) Bonhoeffer to write eloquently about 'cheap grace'. No wonder a recent Gallop Poll showed relatively little difference between American Christians and non-Christians in regard to lifestyle habits and philosophy. We need to be HOLY if we are to gain the Kingdom of heaven--even John Wesley knew that. In a recent Bible study I asked, "What would the Church look like in America if it took Jesus' Lordship seriously?" A visitor said, "Oh, I don't think in those terms. I'm under the blood, that's all that matters." There was the problem that I've seen in the American Church, the logical conclusion of 'Eternal Security.' Now of course, the final basis for evaluating this doctrine is Scripture (and in my Anglican understanding, 'Tradition'), and in both cases, I find NO Scriptural warrant for 'Eternal Security' nor do I find any Scriptural warrant for 'Sola Fide'. And I certainly don't find warrant for either in the writings/teachings of the early Church Fathers, or in the first 1500 years of the church.
The tragic consequences of 'faith alone' and 'Scripture alone' are there for those who will see. I would challenge you to read the writings of the Early Church Fathers (the Disciples of the Disciples). See if you find ANY support for what you believe in their writings. See how they interpreted key Scripture passages regarding these issues.