Heretic Hunters #2

[Jude]

Originally posted by Kiffin:

True Apostolic succession is measured by whether a church is teaching the Apostles doctrine not built on some lineage of bishops or churches.

Actually, few Protestant churches ARE teaching 'Apostolic Doctrine.'(at least in entirety). And while I have some sympathy with your last statement, you can actually have both.

As far as the Reformed Episcopal Church goes, look for it to join the new alignment going on in the Anglican church.

 

[rsr]

Jude, I see the point in much of what you are saying. Protestantism has indeed produced heresies, but it's likely no more pronounced on an individual basis than that which exists within the hierarchical churches and is tolerated because it does not openly challenge the establishment.

If you believe in the Magisterium, you surely must separate from the folks who have ordained a gay bishop and Spong and his ilk, and so I see you heading.

You would do so by creating your own organization. Very much like Luther and Calvin and Zwingli, I think.

To me, the Magisterium is the Body of Christ, those who take their faith seriously. That was the point of this thread, to denounce those purported Evangelicals who prey upon the faithful (or the hopeful) for monetary gain. Luther, flawed and sometimes reprehensible man that he was, got that one right.

 

[Jude]

Originally posted by rsr:


If you believe in the Magisterium, you surely must separate from the folks who have ordained a gay bishop and Spong and his ilk, and so I see you heading.

You would do so by creating your own organization. ..

Actually, the conservative element is saying to Spong, Griwold and the rest of their minions, "you've become apostate. You're no-longer a part of the Anglican Communion." I REJOICE that THIS 'divorce' is taking place.

 

[Jude]

Originally posted by Jude:

D28 said,
"God feels so strongly about that they he curses any "gospel" that adds works to faith."

John Henry Newman illustrates:

God's word, I say, effects what it announces. This is its characteristic all through Scripture. He calleth those things which be not, as though they are, [Rom 4:17] and they are forthwith. Thus in the beginning He said, Let there be light, and there was light. Word and deed went together in creation; and so again "in the regeneration," . . . So again in His miracles, he called Lazarus from the grave and the dead arose; he said, Be thou cleansed, and the leprosy departed; He rebuked the wind and the waves, and they were still; He commanded the evilspirits, and they fled away; . . . so again in the Sacraments His word is the consecrating principle. As He blessedthe loaves and fishes, and they multiplied, so He blessed and brake, and the bread became His Body. . . . Itwould seem, then, in all cases that God's word is the instrument of His deed. When, then, He solemnly utters the command, Let the soul be just, it becomes inwardly just.

God's declarations are effective...works (grace-annointed)bring forth the 'new man'.

 

[D28guy]

Jude,

"God's declarations are effective...works (grace-annointed)bring forth the 'new man'."

No. The Holy Spirit "brings forth" the "new man". The fruit/works/evidence are the result.

You are 100% correct when you say "God's declarations are effective".

God declares us rightious, and from that moment on we are rightiousness in His sight.

"But to him who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his accounted as rightiousness."

"...even the rightiouness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe."

And the result will be...

"Therefore if anyone is in Christ, (through faith alone, of course) he is a new creation. Old things have passed away, behold...all things have become new"

God bless,

Mike

 

[Jude]

Originally posted by D28guy:

God declares us rightious, and from that moment on we are rightiousness in His sight.

But when He 'declares' He MAKES one righteous...
[/QB][/QUOTE]
St Paul clealy states that obedience to the Law for salvation is necessary in the context of...

Rom.8.3-4 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in (the flesh), IN ORDER THAT the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit."

The righteous requirements of the law are met by those who live according to the Holy Spirit. And we must keep His commands...


1Cor. 7.19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God’s commands is what counts.

Faith (trust, belief)are not enough!

1 Cor. 13.2b, 13 and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing...And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Gal.5.6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

Within the system of Grace (established by Christ and His Cross*), the individual MUST please God by his faith AND obedience. The strength/wisdom FOR this obedience is Grace, BUT we must embrace it. We must live it. We must 'work it out in fear and trembling.' If we do not please God, we cannot be saved.

(*At the Cross, Christ did not take on himself the guilt and punishment of man for sin, since hell is the punishment for sin. No, instead He became THE propitiatory sacrifice FOR sin, in order to appease God's wrath against sin. By His death, by His blood, the 'floodgate of grace' are now open, and it is now possible for every man to obtain salvation. Our faith must EXPRESS itself in continual obedience, or put another way, by our -acts of- love.)

The good works we do are a result of COOPERATION of our wills with the will of God. He INFUSES His Grace in those who are willing, making them righteous...

Phil. 2.12-13 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed — not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence — continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

 

[Jude]

Another thought..

there is nothing in the following about "imputed righteousness." The only question that matters is 'obedience'.

Rev.21.27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

(Rev. 3.5 He who OVERCOMES will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never BLOT OUT his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels. )

Rev.22.11 Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; let him who is vile continue to be vile; let him who does right continue to do right; and let him who is holy continue to be holy.”

(again, the call if for obedience)

Rev.22.15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

(again, the focus is on OBEDIENCE, NOT the so-called reception of 'imputed' righteousness'.)

Heb. 11.6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

We MUST seek Him (obedience/love)
We CAN be righteous...
Joseph was (Mt.1.19)
John the Baptist was (Mk.6.20)
Simeon was (Lk.2.22)
Lot was (2 Peter 2.7-8)
Zechariah and Elizabeth were (Lk.1.5-6)

'Imputed righteousness' is a serious heresy.

1John 3.7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous.

Jesus warned us...
Matt. 5.20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Truth is, no serious theologian prior to Luther understood the 'righteousness of God' (Rom.1.17)as imputation. THAT should give one pause...

 

[Jude]

And even the great evangelical John Wesley believed that 'works' were necessary for salvation, and, that one could lose his/her salvation...

"By falling away we mean, not barely falling into sin. This, it is granted, they may. But can they fall totally? Can any of these so fall from God as to perish everlastingly? I am sensible either side of this question is attended with great difficulties, such as reason alone could never remove. Therefore, "to the law and the testimony." Let the living oracles decide; and if these speak for us, we neither seek nor want further witness.
On this authority I believe a saint may fall away; that one who is holy or righteous in the judgment of God Himself may never-the-less so fall from God as to perish everlastingly."

 

[Eric B]

To repeat, that is "work OUT your salvation, not "work FOR your salvation". This speaks of a response. God has saved us, but not to keep on sinning, as Paul says elsewhere. So once again, none of us says that works are "unnecessary". Just that we are not to try to do works and think that we have possibly done enough that this is what saves us, or keeps ourselves saved. We do good works to show that we love Him (John 14:15 1 John 5:3)

Once again, do you honestly believe your works are perfect, as God requires? Or do you believe it is working to the best of your ability, and then God overlooks the lack of perfection? But then, where do you draw the line? In that case, we've compromised and taught a form of imputation already!

The Pharisees certainly were unscrupulous about the LAw, and though they kept it perfectly. But Christ's warning about exceeding their "righteousness" should tell us something!

 

[Ray Berrian]

Jude,

You said, 'Imputed righteousness' is a serious heresy.'

Apparently, God speaking through the Apostle Paul was a heretic also. In Romans 4:6 God's Word says that ' . . . God imputes righteousness without works, ' and that God provides a 'covering' [vs. 7] for every soul that He justifies. [Romans 5:1] Also, when God really justifies a sinner He will not at a later time 'impute sin' [vs. 8] to that Christian. This is why God says, 'There is, therefore, NOW no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.' [Romans 8:1]

You said, '1John 3.7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does
what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous.'

Ray is saying, 'You have to be more careful in study and not just give us a raft of Scriptures. In I John 3:7 there is a small word, {poiown} that is the word practice. It is in the present active tense as is the word also located in this entire passage, including I John 3:9. What John is saying is not that a Christian might sin, but that he or she will not make a practice of sinning, as in the former life as a sinner.'

You said, 'Jesus warned us...
Matt. 5.20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of
the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the
kingdom of heaven.'

Of course, a true Christian will live a holy life in this world; he will not make a practice of sinning.

You said, 'Truth is, no serious theologian prior to Luther understood the 'righteousness
of God' (Rom.1.17)as imputation. THAT should give one pause...

Ray is saying, 'There were always small groups, if they had a Bible, who understood the righteousness/holiness of Almighty God. As you say, the majority did not have access to the Bible because the priests had it chained to the pulpit. Only they were, supposed to interpret the Scripture.

As you said, we not only have a faith/trust in Jesus, we live out our faith before the Lord and among human beings. [Ephesians 2:10] You are correct here.

You said, 'That should give one pause . . . '

The truth of the 'imputation of the righteousness of Christ' to our account [Romans 4:3] is not something that we need to reject, but rather to study and understand the ramifications of this cardinal truth coming straight from the Lord Jesus.'