Heretics should be murdered!

[plain_n_simple]

If a person calls himself a Calvinist, how can he say he does not follow Calvin? If it's only some of Calvins teachings, why use the name Calvin? Does good fruit come from a bad tree? Does only some good fruit come from a bad tree and the rest is bad? I don't understand this.

 

[Winman]

I never said I think we're under the Law of Moses. As a Calvinist and Reformed Theologian, I do not subscribe to Covenant Theology. I am more connected with New Covenant Theology.

No, I was responding to your ill-though-out statement:



Now, either this is a misguided, ill-though-out statement or you think the Old Testament isn't scripture. Being the fair guy that I am, I think you just goofed and didn't think your statement through. And since you didn't think your statement through, you should be willing to admit as much (and you could do so without losing face).

As I've already stated, I think Calvin was wrong to support the execution.

The Archangel

When I said no where do the scriptures command "us" to execute Christians, I was speaking of Christians under grace. I am quite aware of Moses' law.

But I was asking you if you held to Covenant Theology and that we are still under Moses' law.

Calvin knew Tit 3:10. You cannot separate him from the many executions in Geneva during his reign there, he was in control and you know it.

 

[jbh28]

What? What kind of silliness is this? Of couse he is the leader. Stop that.

No, he's not. He's respected, yes. But not a "leader" as you are implying.

Who cares about culture? Jesus said love your enemies and bless them no matter the culture.

So you are against the death penalty? Should we love the murderers and not put them to death? Just want to make sure you are consistent.

 

[jbh28]

If a person calls himself a Calvinist, how can he say he does not follow Calvin? If it's only some of Calvins teachings, why use the name Calvin? Does good fruit come from a bad tree? Does only some good fruit come from a bad tree and the rest is bad? I don't understand this.

I don't call myself a Calvinist. As for you question, it's a name given to those that believe in the doctrines of Grace because it was John Calvin that believed it during his time.

 

[jbh28]

So was Calvin orthodox in his teaching to murder heretics?

No, that's referring to his doctrine. You guys have to understand the time of Calvin. It was a capital offense to believe/teach heresy punishable by death. Do I agree? No. Do I think they were wrong? Yes. How is this relevant to today? Not really sure other than to be used as a red herring.

 

[Winman]

Too late you've already made judgment. On him and others who agree with him.

Wrong. I can judge whether one's actions are "Christian", or even if someone is teaching contrary to scripture, which I absolutely believe Calvin's teachings were. I do not believe he accurately represented the God of the Bible. But only God knows the heart and whether someone has trusted Jesus for salvation.

 

[plain_n_simple]

No, he's not. He's respected, yes. But not a "leader" as you are implying.

So you are against the death penalty? Should we love the murderers and not put them to death? Just want to make sure you are consistent.

Yes I am against the death penalty.
Jesus said forgive.
Jesus said love overcomes.
God said listen to Jesus, not the Law and prophets.
If I were for the penalty, I would have to look at the results of those put to death. Did it stop murders? Not in the states with the penalty. Murders went up.
How many have been put to death only to find out later they were innocent? Too many. But that is another thread.

 

[jbh28]

Wrong. I can judge whether one's actions are "Christian", or even if someone is teaching contrary to scripture, which I absolutely believe Calvin's teachings were. I do not believe he accurately represented the God of the Bible. But only God knows the heart and whether someone has trusted Jesus for salvation.

That's a fair enough assessment. You disagree with his conclusions.

 

[jbh28]

Yes I am against the death penalty.
Jesus said forgive.
Jesus said love overcomes.
God said listen to Jesus, not the Law and prophets.
If I were for the penalty, I would have to look at the results of those put to death. Did it stop murders? Not in the states with the penalty. Murders went up.

I've heard differently, but I may be wrong.

How many have been put to death only to find out later they were innocent? Too many. But that is another thread.

Ok, just wanted to see.

Genesis 9:6 (pre-law)
"Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man."

Maybe that could be a discussion for another thread...

 

[plain_n_simple]

I don't call myself a Calvinist. As for you question, it's a name given to those that believe in the doctrines of Grace because it was John Calvin that believed it during his time.

Ok, I'm only trying to understand this, not pick a fight. The doctrine of grace is from Jesus, so who cares that John Calvin believed it in his time? Forgive me but it seems like Calvin is put on a high seat, when Jesus is the author.

 

[plain_n_simple]

Genesis 9:6 (pre-law)
"Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man."

Maybe that could be a discussion for another thread...

Lol, you got me! I'm really only concerned with what Jesus said though. It might be pre-law, but it's still man under the curse.

 

[jbh28]

Ok, I'm only trying to understand this, not pick a fight. The doctrine of grace is from Jesus,

Can I quote you on that!

so who cares that John Calvin believed it in his time? Forgive me but it seems like Calvin is put on a high seat, when Jesus is the author.

Probably to some yes. I've never read from Calvin personally other than a few quotes here and there. I've heard he was a great expositor of the Scripture by both Calvinist and non-Calvinists. (Though non Calvinists would probably disagree with his conclusions.) I agree that doctrine comes from the Bible.

 

[Skandelon]

Calvinism is just a historical label that has come to represent a particular soteriological view. It doesn't mean all "Calvinists" support or believe everything Calvin taught or did. Same is true of Arminianism.

I believe the OP is much ado about nothing. Culture has changed and things like slavery and Heretic executions were supported by otherwise decent followers of Christ. Calvin was a genius and notable biblical scholar. His work on prayer is amazing. I disagree with him on a few doctrinal points, as did Arminius, but in the great scheme of things we are very close and all of us would do well to show him the respect he deserves while still being able to rationally and objectively disagree with him on particular aspects of his teachings.

Just my two cents worth...

 

[plain_n_simple]

Thanks but I'll praise Jesus, the only name I need.

 

[Skandelon]

Thanks but I'll praise Jesus, the only name I need.

I don't believe anyone asked, or even implied, for you to do otherwise. :thumbs:

 

[quantumfaith]

:thumbs:

Exactly....this whole line of reasoning is an attempt to dismiss the biblical teaching.

Incorrect Icon, the "line of reasoning" is misplaced theological passions being articulated in a less than appropriate manner. That is all that it is.

 

[quantumfaith]

Calvinism is just a historical label that has come to represent a particular soteriological view. It doesn't mean all "Calvinists" support or believe everything Calvin taught or did. Same is true of Arminianism.

I believe the OP is much ado about nothing. Culture has changed and things like slavery and Heretic executions were supported by otherwise decent followers of Christ. Calvin was a genius and notable biblical scholar. His work on prayer is amazing. I disagree with him on a few doctrinal points, as did Arminius, but in the great scheme of things we are very close and all of us would do well to show him the respect he deserves while still being able to rationally and objectively disagree with him on particular aspects of his teachings.

Just my two cents worth...

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[matt wade]

I believe the OP is much ado about nothing. Culture has changed and things like slavery and Heretic executions were supported by otherwise decent followers of Christ. Calvin was a genius and notable biblical scholar. His work on prayer is amazing. I disagree with him on a few doctrinal points, as did Arminius, but in the great scheme of things we are very close and all of us would do well to show him the respect he deserves while still being able to rationally and objectively disagree with him on particular aspects of his teachings.

If someone today were to make the statement "God Himself has explicitly instructed us to kill heretics", we would, rightly, denounce the person, no matter the rest of their teachings or beliefs. John Calvin, however, lived 450 years ago, so we excuse his mad rantings? Was murder any less wrong 450 years ago than it is today? There have been Christians throughout all of church history that have gotten it right. They have not murdered others that disagree with them. John Calvin was not one of those. He was a murderer and claimed that he did it by God's decree! Blasphemy I say!

 

[The Archangel]

When I said no where do the scriptures command "us" to execute Christians, I was speaking of Christians under grace. I am quite aware of Moses' law.

Then you should be more careful with your words. You should have limited your comments to the New Testament.

But I was asking you if you held to Covenant Theology and that we are still under Moses' law.

You asked no such question. But I did answer that I do not hold to Covenant Theology. I am closer to New Covenant Theology

Calvin knew Tit 3:10. You cannot separate him from the many executions in Geneva during his reign there, he was in control and you know it.

Your understanding of history is deeply and, perhaps, hopelessly flawed. Your statement above shows that you don't have the first clue about the history surrounding Geneva in Calvin's time.

The Archangel

 

[matt wade]

The only thing you have shown is you are in way over your head, and cannot post or respond biblically on most topics. Not only have you failed to address biblical calvinists in any meaningful way...but you are alienating those who have an understanding similar to what you would profess.
If you expect anyone to take you seriously you need to repent of this abysmal and misguided attempt of opposing the truth of God. If you cannot ,maybe you should only post in the coffee shop, or entertainment sections.
Posting quotes out of context and trying to relate that to us today has no bearing on the teaching called calvinism.
This only shows your hatred of truth that causes you to rage on and on....about teaching you can not even explain well enough to take a biblical stand about it.

I bow to your superior intellect Iconoclast. Yes, you are a superior biblical scholar. yes, you are superior in all intellectual ways. You have made me understand that one must be a true intellectual to understand the Word of God and that I am not worthy to even crack open a Bible, let alone talk about it.

:sleeping_2: