HEY CALVINISTS! Are we "Totally Depraved" from birth???

[Frogman]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Brother Dallas,

I can happily accept that you do not quickly making a decision on what you think might be right or incorrect. Study is vital! Being a pastor you sure know how to investigate things from different theological resources.

I was really surprised that you think that adoption into His family takes place in the future. There is a true sense that our completed adoption will take place at His coming. 'And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the first-fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our bodies.' {a pointing to the bodily resurrection}

I am wondering if you missed the fact that when a person has faith/trust in Jesus, that person becomes a child of God, [John 1:12] and becomes a son or daughter of the living God. No Christian can become a 'son or daughter of God,' while on this earth [I John 3:2] without changing families from sinners to saints without God, at the point of our regeneration, adopting those persons into His family. Otherwise, why would God say that now because of justification we are children of God? [John 1:12] As you well know, God in Romans eight that there is ' . . . now no condemnation' and as we close out the chapter, no separation for those who are in Christ. Justification and regeneration take place at the time of the immediate transition from being a sinner into that of men and women of God. These events happen only one time during our earthly journey.

I can happily accept that you do not quickly making a decision on what you think might be right or incorrect. Study is vital! Being a pastor you sure know how to investigate things from different theological resources.

I am in agreement with Abraham: "And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:" Gen. 18.27

I was really surprised that you think that adoption into His family takes place in the future. There is a true sense that our completed adoption will take place at His coming. 'And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the first-fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our bodies.' {a pointing to the bodily resurrection}

As I said, I believe the adoption is real in the sense that you do, it is resulted of the new birth, regeneration, justification, reconciliation, salvation, etc. In as much as it is the work of God as related to these it is completed, but in human experience it is yet future. That time of the bodily resurrection as the apostle says '...waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our bodies.'

I see this as the deliverance completed. If I have time I will post some thoughts the Lord has blessed me with on this topic in my preaching. As for now consider David, and Job along with Paul's statement:

David: "As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness." Ps. 17.15

In context of this David is speaking also of that deliverance (vs. 13) but is looking to the day of resurrection I believe to which he shall behold the face of the Lord in righteousness. This does not deny that we are, through the redemptive work of Christ covered at present with his righteousness, but we have not realized this righteousness in the level we shall. It will be over and above the righteousness Adam originally enjoyed.

Job: "For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: and though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me." 19.25-27

The meaning I had in my earlier post is not that the saved are the same as the lost, but that the wages of sin still rule over our present bodies, or else there would be no saint dieing, but would be raptured. Again, I believe Job is looking forward to the day of resurrection when in the flesh he shall see the face of God, this is that future adoption. Though it is ever present in the knowledge of God it is not yet realized in His people.

You have provided the thoughts of the apostle Paul. There is found throughout scripture like references.

I am wondering if you missed the fact that when a person has faith/trust in Jesus, that person becomes a child of God, [John 1:12] and becomes a son or daughter of the living God. No Christian can become a 'son or daughter of God,' while on this earth [I John 3:2] without changing families from sinners to saints without God, at the point of our regeneration, adopting those persons into His family. Otherwise, why would God say that now because of justification we are children of God? [John 1:12] As you well know, God in Romans eight that there is ' . . . now no condemnation' and as we close out the chapter, no separation for those who are in Christ. Justification and regeneration take place at the time of the immediate transition from being a sinner into that of men and women of God. These events happen only one time during our earthly journey.

Forgive me, I can't really see any real disagreement here. I don't think the future adoption into the family of God at the resurrection jeopordizes the completed work of Justification, regeneration, and present knowledge of salvation, but I believe it is the hope of the saints that they look forward to a day of resurrection at which time this deliverance is fulfilled in the experience of the saints.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[Ray Berrian]

As to the theme of adoption, 'Dr. C.I Scofield presents this same definition of adoption in the notes of the Scofield Reference Bible: "Adoption (kuiothesia,) 'placing as a son' is not so much a word of relationship as of position. The believer's relation to God as a child results from the new birth (John 1:12-13, whereas adoption is the act of God whereby one already a child is, through redemption from the law, placed in the position of an adult son (Gal. 4:1-5). . . . '

In other words, when a person comes to a faith in Jesus Christ he is transferred out of the family and watchful eye of the evil one, into the family of God as a son or daughter of the living God, because of of His willing adoption.

 

[Frogman]

Thanks, I have and use a Scofield Bible. I believe the study of adoption, apart from Mr. Scofield's editorial notes will lead you to understand that adoption is a legal process, much like justification, so there is much more than the immediacy you assign to it. It is certain in the view of God, but is experential to the individual at the resurrection.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Ray Berrian]

Brother Dallas,

I used Dr. Chafer's Systematic Theology by way of the reference from Dr. Scofield about adoption. It seems that you are light on present adoption while in this life and merely pick up on the concept and future reality at His coming when we will be with Him. Thanks for the reminder of the legal fact of our adoption. I do believe we are adopted into the family of God when we are saved. Do you believe this also? And again, I believe that the completion of our transition from a bodily resurrection to a new spiritual body will take place at His coming. Romans 8:23 does not mean that we are not quite yet adopted but rather than He still has something to do with our human bodies.

'We have the Spirit as the first part of God's promise. So we are waiting for God to finish making us His own children, which means our bodies will be made free.' {The New Century Version}

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Brother Dallas,

I used Dr. Chafer's Systematic Theology by way of the reference from Dr. Scofield about adoption. It seems that you are light on present adoption while in this life and merely pick up on the concept and future reality at His coming when we will be with Him. Thanks for the reminder of the legal fact of our adoption. I do believe we are adopted into the family of God when we are saved. Do you believe this also? And again, I believe that the completion of our transition from a bodily resurrection to a new spiritual body will take place at His coming. Romans 8:23 does not mean that we are not quite yet adopted but rather than He still has something to do with our human bodies.

'We have the Spirit as the first part of God's promise. So we are waiting for God to finish making us His own children, which means our bodies will be made free.' {The New Century Version}

I do believe in the eternal view of God we are adopted, but you, at least the NCV confirms my believe that adoption is yet future

Bro. Dallas

 

[sturgman]

I am not sure if someone else has mentioned this but Psalm 51:5 "We were concieved in sin and brought forth from iniquity"

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by sturgman:
I am not sure if someone else has mentioned this but Psalm 51:5 "We were concieved in sin and brought forth from iniquity"

yeah, we have attempted to use Scripture.

Thanks brother.

Bro. Dallas

 

[William C]

Originally posted by sturgman:
I am not sure if someone else has mentioned this but Psalm 51:5 "We were concieved in sin and brought forth from iniquity"

Sturgman, I've missed you buddy. Good to have you back.

This passage proves original sin of which all of us are in agreement. However, it says nothing to "Total Inability" to which we most certainly disagree.

People are not born unable to see, hear, understand and turn to God. They can become more and more that way after living in sin and in rebellion. Romans 1 is clear that they BECAME futile in their thinking and the BECAME defiled etc. It doesn't say they were born that way, but that they became that way after they refused to acknowledge God through His revelation and continued to live in sinful rebellion. Though I agree that our sin nature would lead all of us to do this very thing if left to ourselves, I don't believe God has left us to ourselves.

He sent His son. He sent divinly appointed messengers. He sent scripture. He sent His Holy Spirit. He sends circumstances. He provokes with fear, suffering and envy. And he sends us, who believe, to persuade other to do the same.

If not for God's doing these things we would all most definitately perish, but He, by His own grace and mercy, intervened on our behalf, not only on our behalf but on behalf of the entire world.

 

[Frogman]

He sent His Holy Spirit.

Without this all else is a dead work among men and the Word of God without the dealing of the Spirit will help no carnal man. 1 Cor. 2.14

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Frogman:
yeah, we have attempted to use Scripture.

It never works on arminians, though.

 

[William C]

Originally posted by Frogman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />He sent His Holy Spirit.

Without this all else is a dead work among men and the Word of God without the dealing of the Spirit will help no carnal man. 1 Cor. 2.14 </font>[/QUOTE]I don't understand how you all can continue to use this passage to support your view of total depravity. It's not even talking about coming to faith in Christ. Faith or salvation is not mentioned.

Paul is speaking to those who have already recieved the Spirit and their ability to understand the "deep things of God." Do you believe that we must understand the "deep things of God" to be saved. How is it that a child is fit for heaven but he doesn't necessarily understand the all of the deep things of God. Gaining this "wisdom" is a process that comes following the receiving of the Spirit. The Spirit comes through faith.

It interesting to me that when Christ speaks to potential disciples and says you must "count the costs" many of you say that he is refering to the "sancification" process of believers after salvation; but in text like 1 Cor 2:14 where it is obviously speaking to those who already have the Spirit, you apply it to salvation.

Interesting hermeneutics?

 

[Yelsew]

1 Corinthians 2:14 makes no sense at all out of its context, say from verse 10 through 16.

 

[Bible-belted]

I should think the application of 1Co. 2:14 is obvious.

In context Paul is saying that the reason that the Corinthians do not apprehend the wisdom of God is due to their worldly nature.

Of course non-belivers are even more worldly than those Corinthian believers who at least had the Spirit indwelling them. So if the Corinthians are unable to understand spiritual truths, and obey them how mnuch more unable are unbelievers to do so?

See, as important as it is to interpret in context, it is also important to let the text make its own statements. Arminians here artificially limit the scope of the application of the passage to suit their own needs.

 

[Yelsew]

Explain how the "Armenians" limit the application of the scripture.

 

[Bible-belted]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
Explain how the "Armenians" limit the application of the scripture.

I don't know about "Armenians". I mentioned Arminians.

 

[Yelsew]

Does that mean you won't explain because of a perceived misspelling?

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
Does that mean you won't explain because of a perceived misspelling?

how is a mispeling perseifed?

Broder Dallas

 

[Bible-belted]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
Does that mean you won't explain because of a perceived misspelling?

Well, for one thing the misspelling isnot perceived. It is a fact.

For another, since you are arminian, you already know how you (mis)use the verse, and don't need me to explain it to you.

For yet another thing, the issue is whether the Calvanist application is warranted when taking the verse in context. It has been demonstrated that it is. Does your question mean that you won't address that?

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
I don't understand how you all can continue to use this passage to support your view of total depravity. It's not even talking about coming to faith in Christ. Faith or salvation is not mentioned.

IMO it is perfectly relevant. Whether or not you agree that the assertion that the natural man cannot comprehend the things of the spirit is indicative of total depravity, at least the assertion has the merit of actually appearing in the Bible. (As opposed to the "apostles are saved differently than the rest of us" doctrine, which is based on what the Bible does not say.)

 

[William C]

Originally posted by npetreley:
IMO it is perfectly relevant. Whether or not you agree that the assertion that the natural man cannot comprehend the things of the spirit is indicative of total depravity, at least the assertion has the merit of actually appearing in the Bible. (As opposed to the "apostles are saved differently than the rest of us" doctrine, which is based on what the Bible does not say.)

The phrase, "IMO" is all that is relevant because that is the only support you have for your claims.

BTW, the bible says the Apostles were effectually called to apostleship. Where does it say that about all of us?

The Bible says the Apostles given the mysteries of the kingdom from God. Where does it say that about all of us?

The Bible says that the Apostles were going to be supernaturally gifted. Where does it say that about all of us?

The Bible teaches that the Apostles were the only ones who were taught directly from the Incarnate word. Where does it say that about the rest of us?

The apostle Paul when discribing his unique apostleship says he was "set apart from birth." Where does it say that about the rest of us?

The Bible teaches that the Apostles were divinely inspired. Where does it say that about the rest of us?

The Apostles are different than us, just like Christ is different than us and them. Do you assume that everything that is true of Christ is true of us or the apostles? Of course not. So why do you assume that everything that is true of the apostles is also true of us?