Hey Calvinists--What is the role of the Holy Spirit?

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
2 Thess 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

2:14
To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

What are the means that one is saved listed in this passage (notice I recognize that we are only looking at one passage and it may not be all inclusive):
1. through sanctification by the Spirit
2. belief in truth
3. He CALLED you through our gospel

AGain, let the text speak:

God chose you for salvation from the beginning through setting apart of the Spirit and belief.

How did he do this?? Through our gospel, meaning the gospel preaching.

You confuse the setting apart here with the sancitification that takes place in the believers life. This is the setting apart of the spirit to salvation.

Again, this stuff is available in numerous sources that deal with it at a level this forum is not conducive to. I hope you will enlarge your horizons in this matter.

 

[William C]

You confuse the setting apart here with the sancitification that takes place in the believers life. This is the setting apart of the spirit to salvation.
Again, this stuff is available in numerous sources that deal with it at a level this forum is not conducive to. I hope you will enlarge your horizons in this matter.

Larry, it is obviously you who needs to enlarge your horizons. Sancitifaction means "to set apart." One is not set apart by the Spirit until they have faith as Gal. 3:14 says.

The passage says "..to be saved THROUGH..." then it list three things, sancifing work of the Spirit, belief in truth and the gospel presentation.

Thinking out loud: How can he miss something so simple?

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
Larry, it is obviously you who needs to enlarge your horizons. Sancitifaction means "to set apart." One is not set apart by the Spirit until they have faith as Gal. 3:14 says.

Alright then, explain 1 Peter 1:2

1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

Here, this sanctifying work fo the Spirit takes place before the obedience (which is the obedience of faith; cf. Rom 1:5) and the sprinkling of his blood (which is the forgiveness of salvation).

As I said, you have confused the setting apart work fo the Spirit to salvation with the setting apart work fo the Spirit after salvation.

Thinking out loud: How can he miss something so simple?

He didn't. You did.

I am telling Bill, this is not new and it is not rocket science. Every objection you can throw at it has been long answered. It is out there and available for those who are willing to study.

 

[Jimmy J.]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
How can this obviously be taken more than one way?? What are the other options. Those whom he called, he also justified. How does a called person get out of justification here? Why do you insert faith between call and justified? Why not between predestined and called?? Or between justified and glorified?? why here?? Paul didn't put it here.

You just don't get it. How did you know how to answer all those passages that Bill listed? The answers you gave weren't provided in those passages where they? No. The passages at face value seemed to say one thing, but in the light of other scripture they can be understood differently.

This is what I think Paul believes, this passage alone is not proof of this I admit, we must look at many passages (there are passages that alone seem to support Calvinism, and other passages alone that seem to support Arminianism, so don't accuse us of reading into the text becasue we do the same thing you do when your dealing with a passage that is addressing man's responsibility):

8:29
For whom He foreknew [those of all nations who would believe he knew before hand], He also predestined [determined the way in which those who believe were to be conformed] to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

8:30
Moreover whom He predestined [based on his foreknowledge], these He also called [he called them along with everyone else in the world but he knew they would believe]; whom He called [who believed], these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Larry you admit that God calls everybody through the gospel, even the saints as Bill pointed out in 2 Thess. 2:14. So you have to admit that all "those he called" he doesn't justify. You are teaching that there a greater call than that of the gospel and the call of the HS and I don't see that supported elsewhere in the text. You can't just created another calling becasue Paul is not specific in this one passage as to man's responsiblity!

You asked a question about the nature of man. Man is these things. That is why he cannot respond in faith.

None of these passages ever says that he cannot respond in faith! You just supply that link to support your system.

I believe the call of the Holy Spirit and the message of the gospel does have the power to save because it has the power to overcome man's nature.

NO YOU DON'T! If you did then you would believe that the general calling of the gospel and the HS would be sufficient to overcome that nature, but you don't, you add another more effectual calling.

You do believe that the HS calls all men to come don't you?

You do believe that HS's call can be resisted don't you?

Can the Holy Spirit be resisted? Sure. But you seem to think he can't.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Jimmy J.:
You just don't get it. How did you know how to answer all those passages that Bill listed?

Actually, I do get it. I have no problem getting it. I know the answer by a big word called "Study the Scriptures." You refuse to let them speak. Even in your explanation, notice how many things you added in to support your system. I cannot in good conscience do that. I believe the verses say what they do and should be allowed to. I have no compellign reason to mix them around.

8:29
For whom He foreknew [those of all nations who would believe he knew before hand], He also predestined [determined the way in which those who believe were to be conformed] to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Foreknow doesn't mean to "know who would believe beforehand." It means to lovingly choose, or to set one's affections on. This is clear from the meaning "know" in the OT. Furthermore as I already pointed out, your idea of foreknowledge is "what" i.e., their faith; Scripture says it is "who."

8these He also called [he called them along with everyone else in the world but he knew they would believe]; whom He called [who believed], these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Notice how you have twisted the text to get your meaning. This text is not talking about a call to "everyone else in teh world." You have added that it in. It says that those who are called (all of them in the context) are also justified (all of them, not just some of them). Somehow, you have a leak in this verse. I can't accept that. It is talking about a call that results in justification for everyone who believes it. Who is justified?? The ones whom he called. There is no way to be called but not justified. For some reason, you see a necessity to add something in the text that is not there.

Larry you admit that God calls everybody through the gospel, even the saints as Bill pointed out in 2 Thess. 2:14. So you have to admit that all "those he called" he doesn't justify.

This is the common theological distinction between the general and effectual call. It is well known and well supported by Scripture.

You are teaching that there a greater call than that of the gospel and the call of the HS and I don't see that supported elsewhere in the text. You can't just created another calling becasue Paul is not specific in this one passage as to man's responsiblity!

I didn't create another call. The reason you don't see it in eh text is because your system won't allow it. THat problem is with your system, not with the text. The text readily admits this distinction.

None of these passages ever says that he cannot respond in faith! You just supply that link to support your system.

You asked why he cannot respond in faith. These texts describe why. I don't know how much more basic it can get. It is funny though how you are determined to argue agianst yourself here. In Rom 8, you insist the unstated faith should be there. In these passages you insist that it cannot be there because it isn't stated. It shows how inconsistent you are in your thinking.

NO YOU DON'T! If you did then you would believe that the general calling of the gospel and the HS would be sufficient to overcome that nature, but you don't, you add another more effectual calling.

Do not tell me what I believe. I happen to know what I believe. You should as well by reading what is posted here. The problem is that you refuse to actually believe that we know what we believe. You think you can put words in our mouths. It won't work. The Bible says that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation for all who believe. It further says that faith is a gift from God (Phil 1:29 and others). That's clear enough for me. You can add to it if you wish.

You do believe that the HS calls all men to come don't you?

I believe that the call goes out through the gospel to all who hear. I am not convinced that that is the call of the Holy Spirit. We already discussed that and you didn't convince me.

You do believe that HS's call can be resisted don't you?[/quoteI believe that some can resist the work of the Holy Spirit yes.

Can the Holy Spirit be resisted? Sure. But you seem to think he can't.

See above ...

I have answered that so many time here already. You fail to believe that God works to will and to do his good pleasure. It is God who works all things (including salvation) after teh counsel of his own will. It is God who is giving people to the Son. It is God that is granting faith and repentance. I have no problem with any of that. My only problem is with a system that glibly dismisses the verses that don't fit it. I simply cannot do that.

But alas, we will not come to much of a conclusion on this so long as Scripture is being read as it is here so enough has probably been said on this topic. I see no reason for me to continue to say the same things over again.

 

[Frogman]

The general call of the Gospel cannot be disenfranchised from the Holy Spirit. God the Spirit {the third Person of the Godhead/Trinity would not 'turn away' from the possibility of regenerating a lost sinner. The purpose of Christ's sacrifice was to spiritually save every person; [John 3:16; Romans 5:18; I Timothy 2:4,6] therefore, the Triune God would also minister His reality and effect in the lives of all sinners who hear the Gospel

Yeah, all who hear the gospel and those by the Spirit only. We see many times, and I myself have made opportunity to "witness" to someone the Gospel, but did not have the effect you claim, why, not necessarily that God will not at some time in the future provide the effectual call to the person, or persons I witnessed to, but actually that the Holy Spirit does not always work through me or in me. Just because I am speaking the Gospel, does not mean I am speaking it under the leadership of the Spirit. When Phillip was sent into the desert to speak to the Ethiopian eunuch, he went by the Spirit. People assume today that all that is needed is the speaking of the 'good news.' This is wrong, what is needed is the speaking of the truth under the leadership of the Holy Spirit, anything else, though from myself, is no less error than that of teaching man possesses a free will.

The Gospel is not effective because man proclaims it, but it is effective because the Spirit has proclaimed it. To say otherwise will ultimately glorify man and belittle the work of the Spirit in regeneration.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[KenH]

If man contributed one iota to his salvation(be it repentance, faith, good works, etc.), then salvation would not be entirely the work of God and man would have "bragging rights". The Bible says that man has no "bragging rights".

 

[Hardsheller]

L.R. Scarborough, 2nd President of Southwestern Seminary wrote the following in his book "With Christ after the Lost" in Chapter Six - "The Spiritual Stpes to God-The Soul's Salvation - What God Does before Salvation."

1. He foreknows, predestinates, elects
2. He Calls
3. He convinces and convicts of sin
4. He quickens
5. He worketh Godly Sorrows
6. He giveth repentance.

Thought you Texas Baptists needed to hear from one of your early Texas Baptist leaders on the subject.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Brother Dallas,

Just because you did not see immediate results such as a person finding Christ or being found of Him, does not mean that God the Spirit has not used you. The Holy Spirit attends the Word and witness to its credibility, even though the person may act like it is nothing important. The Spirit will continue to call him and perhaps a person might be in a car accident but still at that late time may as Jesus into his life. Don't ever be discouraged by no immediate results.

Some Christians place a tract in the hand of someone, but they need to explain the simplicity of the Cross and how it relates to them. This concept is all new to the lost person.

I find people witness to people and then let them hang. They do not explain that a person must confess their sin and invite Christ into their life. I have prayed with people a simple prayer phrase by phrase after I asked them if they would like to become a Christian. I use words somthing like this, and there are many similar sincere prayers that a witness can lead the sinner in by way of talking to God. I know this prayer is not a formula but it is the way I have the sinner relate to God. 'Lord forgive me of my sins, come into my life and make me a new person. Thank you for dying for me on the Cross and help me from this day forward to follow and love You. Amen.

Follow up in this persons life is vital as we both know.

My real point is don't get discouraged in your good work of faith by way of Christian witness.

Ray

 

[Frogman]

Thanks Bro. Ray for your advice.

However, I do not get discouraged because of my belief in the Sovereignty of God. I agree with you that lack of immediate evidence does not justify saying the Spirit was not working. I fear it is this simple idea of repeating a prayer that some do use to 'lead' ones to Christ that creates the confusion and the ultimate disappointment when the 'convert' does not continue in the faith.

I believe God must move in the heart of the individual and do the leading in that prayer, must grant repentance, or that repentance is a sorrow of this world and not a Godly sorrow.

These are my basic beliefs, and because of these I am able to continue in the ministry I am called.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[William C]

I've been waiting for Jimmy to respond but I can't wait any longer:

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jimmy: You do believe that the HS calls all men to come don't you?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Larry: I believe that the call goes out through the gospel to all who hear.

Don't you also believe that only the "elect" will hear?

What about the fact that Paul says that the Gentiles will hear in Acts 28:28 as opposed to hardened Israel who will not?

Calvinists seem to take the phrase of Jesus which says, "All who have ears let him hear." And they apply that to the "elect" verses the "non-elect". But it is clear in light of the scriptures teaching about hardened Israel that he is distingushing between those who can't hear because of the hardening verses those who can hear and can respond to the message.

Larry: I am not convinced that that is the call of the Holy Spirit. We already discussed that and you didn't convince me.
Technically speaking I don't think the general call is attributed to the Holy Spirit. It is ususally attributed to the gospel. The gospel goes to all without regard. You might find some who attribute it to the Holy Spirit. I don't know.

Is this what you believe? (Please correct me if I'm wrong):
1. There is a general calling of the gospel goes to all men.
2. There is a general calling of the Holy Spirit that goes to all men (though you don't believe it is linked with the general call of the gospel)
3. The general calling of the gospel and the general calling of the Holy Spirit cannot have any effect on man without the additional "effectual calling." So, the "non-elect" will resist the gospel and the general calling of the HS.
4. These general calls have "a damning effect" somehow making them "responsible" for not responding to them. In other words, "they are without excuse," since God called everyone with these general calls.

Have I stated you position accurately, I'm honestly just trying to understand it.

Ken: If man contributed one iota to his salvation(be it repentance, faith, good works, etc.), then salvation would not be entirely the work of God and man would have "bragging rights". The Bible says that man has no "bragging rights".

Paul in Romans 3:27 and following obviously doens't equate having faith with the works of the law by which man can "boast." Paul asserts that we can have faith but still not boast because we are not relying upon the "works of the law."

Grace is continually set up in contrast to the "works of the law." Faith is also set up in contrast to the works of the law. So to assert that somehow faith should be viewed as a work of the law goes against every view of the text.

Hardsheller: L.R. Scarborough

Funny that you mention Scarborough, he is one of guys that Nettles blames for the dift away from Calvinism in Southern Baptist History in his book "By His Grace and for His Glory." Just FYI.

 

[Jimmy J.]

Bro. Bill
I've been waiting for Jimmy to respond but I can't wait any longer:

Sorry, Bill I grew tired of responding to Larry's attempts of proping up his one proof text for effectual calling.

It just seems to me that our view is quite simple:

God calls through the gospel and the HS to all mankind.

Those who respond in faith will be saved, those who don't, won't.

Calvinism, from what I understand, complicates this to absurd conclusions.

Some Calvinist say that the call of the gospel is to all but that the HS doesn't call all people. Others seems to argue that their are two callings, the general and the effectual calling of the HS. Others say that the HS has nothing to do with the general call of the gospel. I don't know what to think? The whole reason I started this post was to find out what Calvinists believe about the work of the Holy Spirit. Now I am more confused than I was before.

Can someone please just spell it out for my simple little mind to understand.

What is the role of the Holy Spirit for those who are saved and those who are not saved within the Calvinistic system? Thank you.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Brother Dallas,

I do not understand your statement in your last paragraph, dated time: 2:13a.m.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Ken H,

Arminians and Calvinists together have 'bragging rights.' We exult about the fact that Christ died for all sinners [Romans 3:23] and that He made it possible for everyone to be saved after hearing the Gospel. [Romans 3:22] 'Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto ALL and on ALL those who believe.' What part of 'all' don't Calvinists understand? To really believe in Jesus is to have faith in the One who promises the imputed righteousness of God to the sinner's life. [Romans 3:22 & Romans 4:6] The Israelites had their opportunity and still do, if they receive Christ as the true Messiah and Savior. As you know we do have Messianic Christians. In Roman 10:17-18 God said, 'Consequently, faith come by hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. But I ask, Did they not hear? Of course they did; "Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world." [Psalm 19:1-4; Isaiah 65:2; Romans 10:18] {The New International Version}

Some have been blind-sided into believing that they alone have 'bragging rights.' Our God goes one step beyond the near-sightedness of Calvinism. We understand that Christ died for all people. Our God is not exclusive but all inclusive toward human life and the hope of eternal life in His blessed Presence. Don't under cut the true Gospel; there is a price to be paid when we stand before God. How many souls are lost in Hell to date because of the teachings of Augustinian Calvinism?

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
Don't you also believe that only the "elect" will hear?

Do you have a passage in mind?? John 8:43 equates "hearing" with "understanding." So yes, only the elect will "hear" in that sense. However, like the Pharisees standing there, they could physically hear, so in that sense, No, not only the elect will hear.

What about the fact that Paul says that the Gentiles will hear in Acts 28:28 as opposed to hardened Israel who will not?

What about it??

Calvinists seem to take the phrase of Jesus which says, "All who have ears let him hear." And they apply that to the "elect" verses the "non-elect".

The place where this phrase is most often used has nothing to do with Israel. It has to do with the church (cf. Rev 2-3). So all those who have ears to hear refers to those with understanding.

But it is clear in light of the scriptures teaching about hardened Israel that he is distingushing between those who can't hear because of the hardening verses those who can hear and can respond to the message

Perhaps the reason no one talks about this is because it is not so "clear." In Romans 8, where we are told that the unsaved man "cannot please God," it has nothing to do with Israel. It has to do with the mind set on the flesh. The hardening is not even mentioned in this context, but ability is.

Is this what you believe? (Please correct me if I'm wrong):
1. There is a general calling of the gospel goes to all men.

Yes

2. There is a general calling of the Holy Spirit that goes to all men (though you don't believe it is linked with the general call of the gospel)

No, I believe it is the general call of hte gospel which is what I said earlier.

3. The general calling of the gospel and the general calling of the Holy Spirit cannot have any effect on man without the additional "effectual calling." So, the "non-elect" will resist the gospel and the general calling of the HS.

It will have the effect of hardening or damning apart from the work of the Holy Spirit. The non elect will resist the general call.

4. These general calls have "a damning effect" somehow making them "responsible" for not responding to them. In other words, "they are without excuse," since God called everyone with these general calls.

Yes.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Jimmy J.:
Sorry, Bill I grew tired of responding to Larry's attempts of proping up his one proof text for effectual calling.[/qutoe]Unfortunately, you never explained how you get around this text. This is not "one proof text." However, there is no need to go further since you haven't even dealt with this one yet.

God calls through the gospel and the HS to all mankind.

Those who respond in faith will be saved, those who don't, won't.

Agreed. No one here disputes this, which you should know by now.

Calvinism, from what I understand, complicates this to absurd conclusions.

You don't understand, which you have well demonstrated.

What is the role of the Holy Spirit for those who are saved and those who are not saved within the Calvinistic system? Thank you. [/b]

The Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment. He ministers common grace to the non-elect. For the elect, he regenerates them, giving them faith and repentance through a new nature that causes them to freely respond to the gospel.

That seems pretty simple to me.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:


</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />What about the fact that Paul says that the Gentiles will hear in Acts 28:28 as opposed to hardened Israel who will not?

What about it?? </font>[/QUOTE] Bro Bill premises his argument on the notion that there are three groups addressed in the NT. Hardened Jews, elect Jews, and Gentiles. It gives him a convenient out on election. He can say those scriptures refer to the Jews that weren't hardened.

 

[Frogman]

These are my basic beliefs, and because of these I am able to continue in the ministry I am called.

By this, I mean I trust wholly in the Sovereignty of God. Otherwise, I believe I would certainly become discouraged and "dropout" of the ministry.

I heard on the radio today that approximately 1100 ministers experience burnout and stop pursuing the ministry (I think this figure is annually). I heard this through Dave Ramsey's program. Whether this is true or who compiled it, I do not know. If given that it is true, what is the reason that so many experience "burnout" I believe it would be due to the lack of trusting in the full Sovereignty of God. This would permit men to develop, maybe unconsciously, an idea that they must do this or that etc. when they fail to see results after beating their heads against the brick wall, they give up.

I hope this helps to shed light upon my former statement.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[William C]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Brother Bill:
Don't you also believe that only the "elect" will hear?

Do you have a passage in mind?? John 8:43 equates "hearing" with "understanding." So yes, only the elect will "hear" in that sense. However, like the Pharisees standing there, they could physically hear, so in that sense, No, not only the elect will hear.

What about the fact that Paul says that the Gentiles will hear in Acts 28:28 as opposed to hardened Israel who will not?

What about it?? </font>[/QUOTE]In Acts 28, just two verses before verse 28 Paul quotes a text from the OT which says that Israel will not listen (like in Jn. 8:43) In contrast, it says in verse 28 that the Gentiles will listen (as in Jn 8:43)

The work "akouo" is used in both texts and in the same manner. The gentiles will listen (as in "understand") and respond just like this passage suggests would happen if Israel were not hardened.

This text is very straightforward and very simple to understand, yet you refuse to answer the obvious argument that I have now made a dozen times. Why?

Because you can see the obvious, "Hardened Israel won't listen and the Gentiles will listen," which contradicts your premise.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
In Acts 28, just two verses before verse 28 Paul quotes a text from the OT which says that Israel will not listen (like in Jn. 8:43) In contrast, it says in verse 28 that the Gentiles will listen (as in Jn 8:43)

The work "akouo" is used in both texts and in the same manner. The gentiles will listen (as in "understand") and respond just like this passage suggests would happen if Israel were not hardened.

So?? What's your point??

This text is very straightforward and very simple to understand, yet you refuse to answer the obvious argument that I have now made a dozen times. Why?

Apparently not since I have never seen it or heard it brought up in this discussion. You seem to be the only one with this insight. I haven't read your arguments for this but then I don't read most of what you write so that is why.

Because you can see the obvious, "Hardened Israel won't listen and the Gentiles will listen," which contradicts your premise.

How does it contradict my premise?? I think it contradicts yours. The Gentiles listen because God has opened their hearts (such as he did with Lydia). Israel does not listen because God has not opened their hearts. What's the difficulty?? The text does not say that the Gentiles hear without aid. In fact 1 Cor 2:14 is an explicit contradiction of that.

Did you read v. 24?? So much for that hardening theory. Some of "Hardened Israel" believed. Did you read v. 26?? They closed their eyes and ears. Again, I fail to see how in the world you are making any argument from this text. I don't think the hardening is any secret. It is a judicial sentence from God on Israel because of their unbelief. But it doesn't answer the problem you face of OT and Gentiles.