Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
How can this obviously be taken more than one way?? What are the other options. Those whom he called, he also justified. How does a called person get out of justification here? Why do you insert faith between call and justified? Why not between predestined and called?? Or between justified and glorified?? why here?? Paul didn't put it here.
You just don't get it. How did you know how to answer all those passages that Bill listed? The answers you gave weren't provided in those passages where they? No. The passages at face value seemed to say one thing, but in the light of other scripture they can be understood differently.
This is what I think Paul believes, this passage alone is not proof of this I admit, we must look at many passages (there are passages that alone seem to support Calvinism, and other passages alone that seem to support Arminianism, so don't accuse us of reading into the text becasue we do the same thing you do when your dealing with a passage that is addressing man's responsibility):
8:29
For whom He foreknew [those of all nations who would believe he knew before hand], He also predestined [determined the way in which those who believe were to be conformed] to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
8:30
Moreover whom He predestined [based on his foreknowledge], these He also called [he called them along with everyone else in the world but he knew they would believe]; whom He called [who believed], these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
Larry you admit that God calls everybody through the gospel, even the saints as Bill pointed out in 2 Thess. 2:14. So you have to admit that all "those he called" he doesn't justify. You are teaching that there a greater call than that of the gospel and the call of the HS and I don't see that supported elsewhere in the text. You can't just created another calling becasue Paul is not specific in this one passage as to man's responsiblity!
You asked a question about the nature of man. Man is these things. That is why he cannot respond in faith.
None of these passages ever says that he cannot respond in faith! You just supply that link to support your system.
I believe the call of the Holy Spirit and the message of the gospel does have the power to save because it has the power to overcome man's nature.
NO YOU DON'T! If you did then you would believe that the general calling of the gospel and the HS would be sufficient to overcome that nature, but you don't, you add another more effectual calling.
You do believe that the HS calls all men to come don't you?
You do believe that HS's call can be resisted don't you?
Can the Holy Spirit be resisted? Sure. But you seem to think he can't.