OldRegular
Well-Known Member
If you can't read simple English I can't help you.
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Historic Baptist Beliefs on the Resurrection and Judgment
- Thread starter OldRegular
- Start date
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Amen, Brother Squire Robertsson -- Preach it!
I note this poll has 16 votes. Most polls
in this forum
after 8 days would have over 80 votes. A virtual
boycott of the poll is in play.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
sorry, double post 
Brother James
New Member
I was once caught in the web of dipensationalism. I was saved in a dispensational baptist church. But after years of examining these doctrines I have become general judgement and ressurection as well as a-mill. I'm 80% reformed baptist and about 20% Particular(when it comes to the sabbath and the law).
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Amen, Brother Mel Miller -- Preach it!
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Amen, Brother Squire Robertsson -- Preach it!
I note this poll has 16 votes. Most polls
in this forum
after 8 days would have over 80 votes. A virtual
boycott of the poll is in play. </font>[/QUOTE]From The Baptist Faith and Message (SBC) 2002:
X. Last Things
God, in His own time and in His own way, will bring the world to its appropriate end. According to His promise, Jesus Christ will return personally and visibly in glory to the earth; the dead will be raised; and Christ will judge all men in righteousness. The unrighteous will be consigned to Hell, the place of everlasting punishment. The righteous in their resurrected and glorified bodies will receive their reward and will dwell forever in Heaven with the Lord.
Isaiah 2:4; 11:9; Matthew 16:27; 18:8-9; 19:28; 24:27,30,36,44; 25:31-46; 26:64; Mark 8:38; 9:43-48; Luke 12:40,48; 16:19-26; 17:22-37; 21:27-28; John 14:1-3; Acts 1:11; 17:31; Romans 14:10; 1 Corinthians 4:5; 15:24-28,35-58; 2 Corinthians 5:10; Philippians 3:20-21; Colossians 1:5; 3:4; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18; 5:1ff.; 2 Thessalonians 1:7ff.; 2; 1 Timothy 6:14; 2 Timothy 4:1,8; Titus 2:13; Hebrews 9:27-28; James 5:8; 2 Peter 3:7ff.; 1 John 2:28; 3:2; Jude 14; Revelation 1:18; 3:11; 20:1-22:13.
(BTW, a link to the 2002 is available
at the bottom of many pages of BB:
for it is the SOF = statement of Faith,
of the BB = Baptist
Board.)
Note that this TOGETHERNESS statement supports all the following views
of Eschatology. Note that DIVISIVE statements do NOT support all
these folloging views.
---------------------------------------
Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:
0. church age continues -- you are here
1. rapture/resurrection
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth
Postrib pre-mill outline:
0. church age continues -- you are here
2. Tribulation time
1.3. Second Advent of Jesus event
(this is one event with the rapture/resurrection)
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth
Postrib a-mill outline:
0. church age continues - is the same as: -- you are here
2. Tribulation time - is the same as: -- you are here
4. spiritual MK=millinnial kingdom -- you are here
1.3. Second Advent of Jesus event
(this is one event with the rapture/resurrection)
5. new heaven & new earth
Peterist a-mill outline:
0. church age continues -- you are here
1. rapture/resurrection -done happened
2. Tribulation time -- or maybe you are here
3. Second Advent of Jesus event -done happend
4. spiritual MK=millinnial kingdom -done happened
5. new heaven & new earth -- or maybe you are here
Ed recommends the pretrib pre-mill
view as aligning most nearly with Holy Scripture.
Ed recommends:
get Rapture Ready!
Stay Rapture Ready!
---------------------------------------
But the The Baptist Faith and Message (SBC) of 2002
does not recommend one of these over the other.
It is the same with all of the 'Historic Baptist Beliefs'
that folks come up with.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
'folloging' above should be 'following'
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I believe that dispensationalists are aptly described by the prophecy of Isaiah verses 6:9, 10:
9. And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
9. And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
According to the 'Abstract of Principles' of the
The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary of 1858
a teacher there had to agree with:
XX. The Judgment
God hath appointed a day, wherein He will judge the world by Jesus Christ,
when every one shall receive according to his deeds;
the wicked shall go into everlasting punishment;
the righteous, into everlasting life.
John, the Beloved Disciple of Jesus could not have taught
in that school
For John the Blessed Disciple of Jesus said:
John 5;28-29 (KJV1769 Edition):
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming,
in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good,
unto the resurrection of life; and they that have
done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
The often perceived
wording of the Seminary is "one and only one 24-hour-day,
no more and no less" is contrary to the wording of The Blessed
Disciple John whose wording should be
understood as: ""one and such
an hour and a day are different. Thus the Blessed Disciple of
Jesus, Brother John - he would have been tarred and feathered and
made to 'ride the rail' had he tryed to apply for the Seminary
professor's job
The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary of 1858
a teacher there had to agree with:
XX. The Judgment
God hath appointed a day, wherein He will judge the world by Jesus Christ,
when every one shall receive according to his deeds;
the wicked shall go into everlasting punishment;
the righteous, into everlasting life.
John, the Beloved Disciple of Jesus could not have taught
in that school
For John the Blessed Disciple of Jesus said:
John 5;28-29 (KJV1769 Edition):
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming,
in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good,
unto the resurrection of life; and they that have
done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
The often perceived
wording of the Seminary is "one and only one 24-hour-day,
no more and no less" is contrary to the wording of The Blessed
Disciple John whose wording should be
understood as: ""one and such
an hour and a day are different. Thus the Blessed Disciple of
Jesus, Brother John - he would have been tarred and feathered and
made to 'ride the rail' had he tryed to apply for the Seminary
professor's job
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
OldRegular: //I believe that dispensationalists are aptly described
by the prophecy of Isaiah verses 6:9, 10:
//9. And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed,
but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears
heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes,
and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart,
and convert, and be healed.//
Amen, Brother OldRegular: Preach it.
But I have the feeling the scripture applies to YOUR definition
of 'dispensational' not mine.
OldRegular: //How do dispensationalists interpret this passage? //
Not knowing what 'dispensation' means, how can you tell how
persons believing in dispensations 'interpret' a passage.
So everything else you say is likely to be in error.
OldRegular: //Revelation 20:4-6, KJV
4. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment
was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that
were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God,
and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image,
neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads,
or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years
were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.
6. Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection:
on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be
priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.//
My KJV doesn't agree with yours. There are no brackets: ( ']' and '[' )
in my KJV1769. What do these brackets mean in your version of the KJV?
Well, I'm not 'dispensational' but i'll tell you how I understand these.
First, this scriputre divides time into before the 1,000 years
the 1,000 years, and after the 1,000 years.
We know from other scripture that that 1,000 years is the
dispensation of the Millinnial Messianic Kingdom - when Messiah Jesus
rules personally on a physcial
earth, from a physical Throne of David,
in a Physical Jerusalem, over Physical Jews (Israeli).
So the people who appear in verse 4 come before the
Millinnial Messianic Kingdom and after the Tribulation Period
described in Revelation chapters 4-19.
There are two groups (the numbers are not sacred, but are
added for those who have a problem counting to TWO):
(1) "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment
was given unto them: ... "
-- these are Church Age*, mostly gentile but some Messanic
Jews who were resurrected (raised from the dead)
or raptured (changed into new bodies while alive) at
the pretribulation rapture (CAUGHT UP together with Christ).
The ones who will rule in the Millinnial Messianic Kingdom
are those rewarded with such service at the Judgement Seat
of Christ (Bema awards ceremony) in heaven.
* in the Bible called the "time of the Gentiles" or 'Gentile Age'.
(2) " ... and [I saw] the souls of them that
were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God,
and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image,
neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads,
or in their hands;
--These are the Jewish Israeli Saints that come from the
Tribulation Period mini-Dispensation. BTW, 'souls' here means
'people'. Recall in the story of the Flood that '8 souls were saved'.
OldRegular: //In light of the dispensationalist claim that this passage describes
the pretribulation rapture/resurrection we must ask the question:
If this rapture/resurrection precedes the “Grreat Tribulation”
why are these souls described as those who
//a. were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God.
b. which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image,
c. neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands.//
There are TWO GROUPS, not one.
You are assuming here that the 'and' (Greek 'kai') joins
two descriptions of the same group of people.
In fact, i assume it connects two seperate sets of people.
(I make this choice so these scriptures will not conflict
with other scriptures).
Now, how is that for doctrinal difference by the meaning
of a simple word like 'and' (Greek 'kai')?
by the prophecy of Isaiah verses 6:9, 10:
//9. And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed,
but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears
heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes,
and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart,
and convert, and be healed.//
Amen, Brother OldRegular: Preach it.
But I have the feeling the scripture applies to YOUR definition
of 'dispensational' not mine.
OldRegular: //How do dispensationalists interpret this passage? //
Not knowing what 'dispensation' means, how can you tell how
persons believing in dispensations 'interpret' a passage.
So everything else you say is likely to be in error.
OldRegular: //Revelation 20:4-6, KJV
4. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment
was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that
were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God,
and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image,
neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads,
or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years
were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.
6. Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection:
on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be
priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.//
My KJV doesn't agree with yours. There are no brackets: ( ']' and '[' )
in my KJV1769. What do these brackets mean in your version of the KJV?
Well, I'm not 'dispensational' but i'll tell you how I understand these.
First, this scriputre divides time into before the 1,000 years
the 1,000 years, and after the 1,000 years.
We know from other scripture that that 1,000 years is the
dispensation of the Millinnial Messianic Kingdom - when Messiah Jesus
rules personally on a physcial
earth, from a physical Throne of David,
in a Physical Jerusalem, over Physical Jews (Israeli).
So the people who appear in verse 4 come before the
Millinnial Messianic Kingdom and after the Tribulation Period
described in Revelation chapters 4-19.
There are two groups (the numbers are not sacred, but are
added for those who have a problem counting to TWO):
(1) "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment
was given unto them: ... "
-- these are Church Age*, mostly gentile but some Messanic
Jews who were resurrected (raised from the dead)
or raptured (changed into new bodies while alive) at
the pretribulation rapture (CAUGHT UP together with Christ).
The ones who will rule in the Millinnial Messianic Kingdom
are those rewarded with such service at the Judgement Seat
of Christ (Bema awards ceremony) in heaven.
* in the Bible called the "time of the Gentiles" or 'Gentile Age'.
(2) " ... and [I saw] the souls of them that
were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God,
and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image,
neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads,
or in their hands;
--These are the Jewish Israeli Saints that come from the
Tribulation Period mini-Dispensation. BTW, 'souls' here means
'people'. Recall in the story of the Flood that '8 souls were saved'.
OldRegular: //In light of the dispensationalist claim that this passage describes
the pretribulation rapture/resurrection we must ask the question:
If this rapture/resurrection precedes the “Grreat Tribulation”
why are these souls described as those who
//a. were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God.
b. which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image,
c. neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands.//
There are TWO GROUPS, not one.
You are assuming here that the 'and' (Greek 'kai') joins
two descriptions of the same group of people.
In fact, i assume it connects two seperate sets of people.
(I make this choice so these scriptures will not conflict
with other scriptures).
Now, how is that for doctrinal difference by the meaning
of a simple word like 'and' (Greek 'kai')?
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
EdOriginally posted by Ed Edwards:
According to the 'Abstract of Principles' of the
The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary of 1858
a teacher there had to agree with:
XX. The Judgment
God hath appointed a day, wherein He will judge the world by Jesus Christ,
when every one shall receive according to his deeds;
the wicked shall go into everlasting punishment;
the righteous, into everlasting life.
John, the Beloved Disciple of Jesus could not have taught
in that school
For John the Blessed Disciple of Jesus said:
John 5;28-29 (KJV1769 Edition):
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming,
in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good,
unto the resurrection of life; and they that have
done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
In case you are not aware of it an hour is part of a day. Your response is the reason I believe that dispensationalists are aptly described by the prophecy of Isaiah verses 6:9, 10:
9. And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
It should not take a rocket scientist to understand what the brackets represent. If you check your 1769 KJV you will see that the words in brackets above are italicized in your Bible just as they are in my Thompson Chain Reference Bible [and many other translations I own]. That means these words were supplied by the translators and are not in the original manuscripts.
The reason the words are in brackets rather than italicized is because that is the way they are identified in the Bible Study software I use [Online Bible].
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
BB supports italics.
use [ i ] (no spaces) don't forget to end
with [ /i ] (no spaces)
Revelation 20:4-6, KJV
4. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment
was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that
were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God,
and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image,
neither had received his mark upon their foreheads,
or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years
were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection:
on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be
priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
use [ i ] (no spaces) don't forget to end
with [ /i ] (no spaces)
Revelation 20:4-6, KJV
4. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment
was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that
were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God,
and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image,
neither had received his mark upon their foreheads,
or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years
were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection:
on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be
priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Your response is the reason I believe that
anti-dispensationalists are aptly described
by the prophecy of Isaiah verses 6:9, 10:
9. And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
anti-dispensationalists are aptly described
by the prophecy of Isaiah verses 6:9, 10:
9. And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
I'm a professional proof-reader. I don't understand,
I ask.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
I respectfully disagree.
In prophetic writings:
hour = the appropriate time
day = the appropriate time
so day = hour, a day IS an hour, in prophetic writing.
BTW, according to 2 Peter 3:8:
1,000 years = 1 day.
Prophetic math means that 1,000 years can = 1 hour.
Hey, this isn't half as wierd as denying Revelation
chapter 20 to understand 2 Peter chapter 3???
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I'm a professional proof-reader.[/QUOTE]
One would never know after trying to wade through your posts.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I respectfully disagree.
In prophetic writings:
hour = the appropriate time
day = the appropriate time
so day = hour, a day IS an hour, in prophetic writing.
BTW, according to 2 Peter 3:8:
1,000 years = 1 day.
Prophetic math means that 1,000 years can = 1 hour.
Hey, this isn't half as wierd as denying Revelation
chapter 20 to understand 2 Peter chapter 3??? </font>[/QUOTE]So you are saying that John 5:28, 29 should read:
28 Marvel not at this: for the appropriate time is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
I agree and through your insightful logic, and the fact that appropriate time is singular, you have demonstrated that the general resurrection and judgment is the correct teaching of Scripture. The old Baptist Saints would be proud of you.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
I respectfully disagree. 'appropriate time'
is neither singular nor plural.
Would you understand better if it said
what follows?
28 Marvel not at this: for the millinnium
is coming, in the which all that are
in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have
done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the
resurrection of damnation.
There would be no difference in the meaning.
hour = appropriate time
day = appropriate time
year = appropriate time
Daniel's 70th week of 7-years = appropirate time
millinnium = appropriate time
DeafPosttrib
New Member
Ed,
I know you for over 3 years. You always talk 'smart' and doing your own logical & guesswork as what your intepreting the scriptures, not what it actual saying, you just added and make up in your own logic or guesswork.
You says:
What about Matt. 24:36 says: "But of that day and HOUR knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." ? Does Christ saying 'hour' equals with 1000 years? No, he spoken of the very specific timing of his return, no person knows what the specific time of His returns, only God, the Father knows when.
Also, when Christ was with three disciples- Peter, John, and James in the garden after the Lord's supper. CHrist begged them to watch him praying for a hour, but they were fell in sleep so fast, then Christ asked them to watch him for pray second time. But, they again fell in sleep. Then, when after Christ prayed third time, and he saw them slept, He said, "Sleep on now, and take your rest behold 'the HOUR is at hand', and the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners." - Matt. 26:45. He spoken of his death is about to arrival, as his TIME has arrived for him to face calvary, about 12 to 15 hours later, he died. He spoken of 'hour' means TIME for him to face Calvary.
'Hour' of John 5:28 does not stretch into 1000 years according your logic or guesswork. John 5:28 speaks of the TIME for all graves to hear Christ's voice at His coming- single event, not two phases or split comings, but single coming.
I know, you really, really having hard to accept what Christ actual saying of John 5:28. Dispensationalists & pretribbers really have hard time with it, yet, they doing their guesswork and in their own intepreting to twist what Christ actual saying, because they do not accept what Christ saying.
Why cannot you accept what Christ saying? Stop listening what you read from tons of dispensationalism books about the timing of Christ's coming in their own logical or guesswork, better follow and listen what Christ actual saying, believe His word.
Early Christians believed only one coming of Christ, even, they believed in general judgment follow at Christ's coming, because they understood what God's Word saying, they followed it.
Today, there are too many commentatories, books, doctrines, religions out in the world, cause Christians into confusion and misunderstanding. Because most Christians do not actual read or study God's Word at home. They depend on men's books too much than read only one book - Bible. Sad.
We must back to God's Word, and listening what God's word, stay with it, and follow it.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
I know you for over 3 years. You always talk 'smart' and doing your own logical & guesswork as what your intepreting the scriptures, not what it actual saying, you just added and make up in your own logic or guesswork.
You says:
You just added unto God's word, not actual what Christ said. How can you be sure that 'hour' equals with 1,000 years?
What about Matt. 24:36 says: "But of that day and HOUR knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." ? Does Christ saying 'hour' equals with 1000 years? No, he spoken of the very specific timing of his return, no person knows what the specific time of His returns, only God, the Father knows when.
Also, when Christ was with three disciples- Peter, John, and James in the garden after the Lord's supper. CHrist begged them to watch him praying for a hour, but they were fell in sleep so fast, then Christ asked them to watch him for pray second time. But, they again fell in sleep. Then, when after Christ prayed third time, and he saw them slept, He said, "Sleep on now, and take your rest behold 'the HOUR is at hand', and the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners." - Matt. 26:45. He spoken of his death is about to arrival, as his TIME has arrived for him to face calvary, about 12 to 15 hours later, he died. He spoken of 'hour' means TIME for him to face Calvary.
'Hour' of John 5:28 does not stretch into 1000 years according your logic or guesswork. John 5:28 speaks of the TIME for all graves to hear Christ's voice at His coming- single event, not two phases or split comings, but single coming.
I know, you really, really having hard to accept what Christ actual saying of John 5:28. Dispensationalists & pretribbers really have hard time with it, yet, they doing their guesswork and in their own intepreting to twist what Christ actual saying, because they do not accept what Christ saying.
Why cannot you accept what Christ saying? Stop listening what you read from tons of dispensationalism books about the timing of Christ's coming in their own logical or guesswork, better follow and listen what Christ actual saying, believe His word.
Early Christians believed only one coming of Christ, even, they believed in general judgment follow at Christ's coming, because they understood what God's Word saying, they followed it.
Today, there are too many commentatories, books, doctrines, religions out in the world, cause Christians into confusion and misunderstanding. Because most Christians do not actual read or study God's Word at home. They depend on men's books too much than read only one book - Bible. Sad.
We must back to God's Word, and listening what God's word, stay with it, and follow it.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!