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Historic PreMil
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The entrance into Jerusalem from the home of Zacchaeus on Saturday, Eight days before the resurrection.
Lu 19:5 And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up, and saw him, and said unto him, Zacchaeus, make haste, and come down; for to day I must abide at thy house.
He must abide at his house because:
Lu 19:11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem
a sabbaths days journey.
11b and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
Judgement based on Stewardship
15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:
21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.
22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:
23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?
24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.
25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)
26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
28 And when he had thus spoken, he went before, ascending up to Jerusalem.
One can see that this judgement was of the Jews and took place after his return to establish his kingdom and before he sat down on his throne.
The kingdom of Christ is a serious doctrine in the scriptures. Men die who reject it, as one can see in this prophetic parable.
Lu 19:5 And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up, and saw him, and said unto him, Zacchaeus, make haste, and come down; for to day I must abide at thy house.
He must abide at his house because:
Lu 19:11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem
a sabbaths days journey.
11b and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
Judgement based on Stewardship
15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:
21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.
22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:
23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?
24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.
25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)
26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
28 And when he had thus spoken, he went before, ascending up to Jerusalem.
One can see that this judgement was of the Jews and took place after his return to establish his kingdom and before he sat down on his throne.
The kingdom of Christ is a serious doctrine in the scriptures. Men die who reject it, as one can see in this prophetic parable.
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Thanks John of Japan, I must say that I am not very familiar with terms like historic pre-mil and the like and could not have provided a real definition if asked. However, I am of the opinion that God is giving more light to his servants concerning the rapture and the mil reign of Christ as the time draws near and I will not be the person offering lots of criticism of John R Rice and Lee Roberson and others like them for being somewhat lacking in their rightly dividing the subject (even though I believe they could have done a little better with more effort). They served their generation and impacted the lives of many, and may their rewards be great. We have some seasoned saints in our church whose lives were impacted greatly by your grandfather who had a role in their coming to Christ.He was taught the typical SBC postmil position at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. After that he came to his historic premil position on his own by simply studying the Bible and interpreting literally. Famous pastor of Highland Park Baptist Church (Chattanooga) and founder of Tennessee Temple, Lee Roberson, came to his position the same way. One day he preached on the Rapture, and someone told him he was premil, but he didn't even know what that meant!
Rice included the OT saints in the church, so he believed that in the rapture they would go up just as church age believers did. He opposed the church as beginning at Pentecost and only including Church Age saints in a number of his books, with the rationale that the most important thing about Pentecost was that 3,000 people got saved, not the change in dispensations.
He believed that the rapture and tribulation were to punish the earth and prepare for the 2nd Coming and millennial reign of Christ. I don't have access to my library right now and my Rice books, so more than that about his doctrine will have to wait.
Because of progressive revelation and the synchronization of the Bible with historical events, I think we should not rely too heavily on men of the past but press on towards the light.
Blank
New Member
Interesting. I'll give him a look.
Shame no one has mentioned Robert Gundry yet. He puts a new spin on posttribulationalism in yet believing in a distinction between the Church and Israel. This is different from Covenantal George Ladd.
"...many of the early church fathers and some of the Protestant Reformers definitely believed that the Lord could come at any time. In order to accommodate themselves to this point of view, they recognized in their contemporary situation the fulfillment of end-time signs of the second advent.
In the twentieth century among posttribulationists there has been a definite trend away from the doctrine of imminency. This is illustrated in the work by George A. Ladd, The Blessed Hope,1 which was discussed in the previous article. Ladd definitely believes that there is at least a seven-year period which must be fulfilled before the second coming of Christ.
An entirely new approach to posttribulationism appeared for the first time in the work of Robert H. Gundry, The Church and the Tribulation.2 This work is a further advance away from imminency but is built on premises some of which have never before been used for posttribulationism.
...
Until Gundry’s new approach to posttribulationism was published, it was assumed by practically all pretribulationists and posttribulationists that dispensational interpretation automatically led to pretribulationism. J. Dwight Pentecost, for instance, states,” (1) Posttribulationism must be based on a denial of dispensationalism and all dispensational distinctions. It is only thus that they can place the church in that period which is particularly called ‘the time of Jacob’s trouble’ (Jer 30:7). (2) Consequently, the position rests on a denial of the distinction between Israel and the church”6
George Ladd devotes an entire chapter to dispensationalism in his attack on pretribulationism.7 He introduces his chapter with these words: “In this brief chapter, we shall deal with the most important reason used by pretribulationists for refusing to apply the prophecies about the Great Tribulation to the Church. It is so important that it may be called the major premise of dispensationalism.”8
This common assumption by both pretribulationists and posttribulationists is debated by Gundry in his second chapter entitled “The Dispensational-Ecclesiological Backdrop.”9 In a rather laborious argument Gundry attempts to correct the prevailing view that dispensationalism leads to pretribulationism in order to establish a basis for his own dispensational posttribulationism. He admits “none of the ‘mysteries’ distinctive of the Church—such as the equality of Jews and Gentiles in one Body, the Church as the bride of Christ, and Christ’s indwelling of believers—are ever applied specifically to tribulation saints.”10 He then attempts to dismiss this, however, as being insignificant on the premise that “the burden of proof rather rests on pretribulationists to show that tribulational saints will not belong to the Church….”11 Here Gundry attempts to avoid one of the major problems of posttribulationism: that the church by that title is never shown to be in the great tribulation. Why does the burden of proof rest on the pretribulationist?"
Source
Blank
New Member
I'll do a thorough reading of this tomorrow when I'm not so sleepy, zzz, zzz, right now I couldn't do it justice.
Lets's start with this post of mine.
Also, in my most recent post on this thread, I quoted Walvoord, who highlights the fact that the book of Revelation (after chapter 4 verse 1),
1), distinguishes between the Gentiles and Jews (Rev 7:4, 9) (something which is never described of the Church saints of today's dispensation, see Galatians 3:28 for example):
Revelation 7 NIV
4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
...
9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:
“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”
2), never mentions the bride of Christ until the advent of Christ (Rev 19:7), and in that passage, it is never explicitly stated that the tribulation saints are the bride of Christ, which is different from saints in today's dispensation, who are told they are the bride of Christ (Eph 5:28-32):
Revelation 19:7 NIV
Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready.
and 3), never mentions any tribulation saint as being "in Christ"
Since the pretribulationalist (like Walvoord) already argues for the pre-trib rapture of the Church, in whom is no distinction between the Jew and Gentile (Gal 3:28), and who is the bride of Christ (Eph 5:28-32), who is termed to be "in Christ" in a number of places in Pauline scripture, it would not be the pretribulationalist's onus to prove a thesis that is not theirs. A pretribulationalist shouldn't have to prove that the Church exists in the chapters of the book of Revelation that describe the great tribulation that is to be unfolded before the advent of Christ, since their thesis is the exact opposite. The burden of proof rests on the posttribulationalist to prove their thesis, that the distinctives of the Church as we know it today appear in the sections of the book of Revelation that describe the great tribulation. So far, with the three distinctives that Walvoord has laid out and which I have highlighted above, posttribulationalists have done a really lousy job at proving their thesis.
Where do you believe i have brought up postmillennialism?
Good points. Thank you. Every generation must serve Christ in its time and location. All glory must go to God and not man, and I've seen people glorify John R. Rice to an unspiritual level.
Blank
New Member
Sorry, I probably got you confused with another. I only found your quote above regarding posttrib.
Bible teachers who insist on a post trib rapture is essentially claiming that Jesus Christ and his sacrifice on the cross was not a one time and forever sacrifice for the sins of men. If the church of Jesus Christ must endure the awful wrath of God and suffer the refiners fires of those years then we have no business believing what we are told about the nature of the church. It is the body of Christ. If it is indeed the body of Christ, then God is once again pouring out his wrath on Christ by taking the church, the body of Christ through the tribulation.
When Jesus our Lord saved Saul, who would become Paul on the Damascus road, he said this to him;
Acts 9:1 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.
3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest:
Let's just be honest here. It was not Jesus in person who Saul was persecuting, it was born again Jews who had trusted in Jesus Christ and were added to his church, which he will find out later is his body and bride in the same way and after the same manner that Eve was of the body of Adam and also his bride and later his wife.
God, who rules over this creation of his providentially, has determined that a man and his wife become one when the marriage is consummated.
Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
But wait, Jesus was a Jew and the church has a Jewish foundation and beginning and the cultural applications of the scriptures are all from Jewish cultural mores. The espousal is considered binding as marriage in Jewish culture as the example of Mary and Joseph.
The church is espoused to Christ.
2Co 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
Here are a couple verses that are relevant to things I said above.
24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Heb 10:10 By the which will (testament) we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Ac 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
The church had its beginning here.
Acts 11:14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life. (ten years later)
I actually think I could spend the remainder of the night giving a defense of the Pre-trib rapture of the church from the standpoint of scripture, logic, common sense, reason, and hope. One must rightly divide the scriptures (it is a command) and one must be aware of time frames in scripture. One must understand that God has reserved a time to destroy all those who refuse to receive Jesus Christ by faith and restore all that Adam lost by sinning.
Ac 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead (the gospel).
That day that he has appointed is called the day of the LORD and is described as the vengeance of God, darkness and not light, the indignation by 12 scripture writers in 15 books over a period of a thousand years, mentioning it by name 29 times in thirty verses, and what they describe has not come yet, but John the revelator who took a tour of the future and looking back said said it is come..
Re 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
1Th 1:9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; 10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
I say Hallelujah and Glory to God for our great Savior, Jesus Christ.
When Jesus our Lord saved Saul, who would become Paul on the Damascus road, he said this to him;
Acts 9:1 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.
3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest:
Let's just be honest here. It was not Jesus in person who Saul was persecuting, it was born again Jews who had trusted in Jesus Christ and were added to his church, which he will find out later is his body and bride in the same way and after the same manner that Eve was of the body of Adam and also his bride and later his wife.
God, who rules over this creation of his providentially, has determined that a man and his wife become one when the marriage is consummated.
Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
But wait, Jesus was a Jew and the church has a Jewish foundation and beginning and the cultural applications of the scriptures are all from Jewish cultural mores. The espousal is considered binding as marriage in Jewish culture as the example of Mary and Joseph.
The church is espoused to Christ.
2Co 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
Here are a couple verses that are relevant to things I said above.
24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Heb 10:10 By the which will (testament) we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Ac 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
The church had its beginning here.
Acts 11:14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life. (ten years later)
I actually think I could spend the remainder of the night giving a defense of the Pre-trib rapture of the church from the standpoint of scripture, logic, common sense, reason, and hope. One must rightly divide the scriptures (it is a command) and one must be aware of time frames in scripture. One must understand that God has reserved a time to destroy all those who refuse to receive Jesus Christ by faith and restore all that Adam lost by sinning.
Ac 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead (the gospel).
That day that he has appointed is called the day of the LORD and is described as the vengeance of God, darkness and not light, the indignation by 12 scripture writers in 15 books over a period of a thousand years, mentioning it by name 29 times in thirty verses, and what they describe has not come yet, but John the revelator who took a tour of the future and looking back said said it is come..
Re 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
1Th 1:9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; 10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
I say Hallelujah and Glory to God for our great Savior, Jesus Christ.
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Some more authors holding to a form of historical premill woulde include the likes of
J. Oliver Buswell, George Eldon Ladd, Millard Erickson, and Craig Blomberg. Many in recent generations have even held to a dispensational form of premillennialism, even while not being known for being champions of the whole system. We might think of Francis Schaeffer, Gleason Archer, James Montgomery Boice, Norman Geisler, and Wayne Grudem.
ParticularWife
New Member
I'm interested in this, though I'm a postMil who thinks AMil collapses into the same de facto position.