ALL ABOARD!:smilewinkgrin:
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Historic Premillennialism defended
- Thread starter evangelist6589
- Start date
ALL ABOARD!:smilewinkgrin:
ALL ABOARD!:smilewinkgrin:
Still time to swiych lanes though, and get on the right rail!
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Still time to swiych lanes though, and get on the right rail!
Then why the movement to progressive dispensationalism?
Then why the movement to progressive dispensationalism?
Some have decided to take that route, but don't think the scripture really support that...
I don't believe in a literal 1000 year earthly reign as you well know. I believe in an eternal reign in the New Heavens and New Earth!
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
So why don't you just accept what the bible says?
So Is the only difference between Historic Premil and Disp Pre mill the timing of the rapture?
what else is different between these two views?
what else is different between these two views?
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
It doesn't support the pre-trib rapture or the "parenthesis church" either!Some have decided to take that route, but don't think the scripture really support that...
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
So why don't you just accept what the bible says?
John 5:28, 29
28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Why don't you???
The first resurrection was that of Jesus Christ. Do you deny that also?
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
So Is the only difference between Historic Premil and Disp Pre mill the timing of the rapture?
what else is different between these two views?
Historic premillennialists have a Biblical view of the Church, dispensationalists do not!
Historic premillennialists have a Biblical view of the Church, dispensationalists do not!
What do you think is the Biblical view of the church as opposed to a dispensationalist's view of the church?
What do you mean?John 5:28, 29
28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Why don't you???
The first resurrection was that of Jesus Christ. Do you deny that also?
was not the widows child resurrected in the O.T.?
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
What do you mean?
was not the widows child resurrected in the O.T.?
The Bible records a number of instances where people have been brought back to life. These all died. When a person is resurrected they die no more. Those who died in Jesus Christ will have glorified bodies like that of our resurrected Savior. The Apostle Paul discusses this in 1 Corinthians chapter 15.
ok. what's your point?The Bible records a number of instances where people have been brought back to life. These all died. When a person is resurrected they die no more. Those who died in Jesus Christ will have glorified bodies like that of our resurrected Savior. The Apostle Paul discusses this in 1 Corinthians chapter 15.
from a good friend of mine Fred Kuypers:
Both Historic Premillennialism HP (A relatively new name given to a wrong belief) and dispensational Premillennialism DP wrongly attributed to Darby in the 1830's (who actually renewed the correct thinking about the pretrib back then) but actually pretrib going back to the apostles time, are all about the belief that Christ will come back before the Millennial kingdom.
No where are these words in the Bible mentioned. That is Millennialism or pretrib or posttrib or prewrath or post wrath, rapture or Amillennialism.
This is what the Bible says:
1. Christ will reign for a thousand years. Rev. 20. That is what is meant by the Millennial kingdom.
2. Pretrib (DP) believers believe Jesus will come back but not touch down to the earth before the tribulation period. We will meet Him in the air. 1Thes 4.
3. It will be before the 7 yr period that is left in the book of Daniel. Chapter 9 the 70 weeks of years.
4.62 weeks of years plus 7 weeks of years are already accounted for in Daniel. 49 years to rebuild the temple in Nehemiah's time and 434 yrs from the time the temple is rebuilt till Messiah is cut off (Jesus dies on the cross).
The last week of years in Daniel is known as the 7yr tribulation period and is not dealing with the church as the book of Revelation says to the Philadelphian church.
How do we know that these are weeks of years? because the Jews say so. They know the Hebrew language and have always said these are weeks of years. There are other proofs that these weeks are years but this is the only one we need to have. Usually there is no arguing this fact.
5. Posttrib premillennialism (HP) is a belief that Jesus will come back only once; at the second coming after the 7r tribulation period which is for the Jews and not the church. Why would we go through something designed for the Jew and not the church?
Post tribbers (HP) say that instantly we will be taken and in that twinkling of an eye all these things will occur.
A.. The judgment seat of Christ for millions of church age saints( the Bride of Christ) that will be shedding real tears for the life they did not live for Jesus.
B. Crown of rejoicing (1 thes 2:9) only to those who look for His appearing not His second coming
(Rapture) not His touch down to earth.
C. Crowns for Rightousness;
D. Crowns for Glory.
E. Crowns of life for running the race
F. We will cast these back during the tribulation period of 7 yrs. If HP where true when do we do this?
G. The wedding feast of the Lamb (Rev 19)
H. Try saying
Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth
In the tinkling of an eye? It cannot be done. but post millennial people think that all this will take place when the rapture and the second coming occur simultaneously. For that is posttrib belief.
I. Second coming of Jesus in power and great glory! (Why would Jesus want to do this in the twinkling of an eye??? Do you not think He wants the whole world or what is left of it to see His great return)
J. Also we will be given our positions to reign with Christ at His return Rev 20:6 How much time will be needed to give out these positions? If we have a 7 yr period there is enough time. but if the rapture and the second coming are simultaneous then there is no time.
How fast is the twinkling of an eye? 1/20th of a second. Can Jesus do this? of course He can! But we can not!! We can not even say Alleluia in 1/20th of a second!
Make no mistake the post tribbers (HP) allow no time between a rapture and the second coming and most believe there will be no rapture just a second coming at the end of the 7 yr trib period which is for God to go back and deal with the Jews for the last time. The 7 yr tribulation period is not for the church but for the Jew just as the first 483yrs of Daniel's time frame were for the Jew. The church is not a part of it. We will have nothing to do with it, and we will have seven yrs. to be with Christ at His Bema seat to receive crowns, and at the marriage feast to be the bride of Christ, and at the reign of Christ to receive our orders on where to reign. Plenty of time for that in 7 yrs.
In the description of Jesus Christ's return it is mentioned in 2 distinct ways. First He comes back as a thief in the night. Quietly, secretly, unsuspecting for His own. The second time it is with power and great glory, His second coming to defeat Satan and all who oppose Him. Two distinct separate returns, one not touching down on the earth (Rapture) and the next touching down on the earth (Second Coming.)
At the end of Revelation we are told by John to look for His coming or His Appearing. It is the Greek word
er'-khom-ahee
And means appearing
The word "come" in its other translations does not mean this.
We are praying that the Lord Jesus will appear quickly in the Air.
Post tribbers (HPers) are not looking for the imminent return of Jesus to appear.
Post tribbers (HPers) are looking for the start of the tribulation period according to them will occur at the revealing of Anti-Christ.
So what are they praying? Not what John said to pray! they are looking for the revealing of Antichrist so they are praying Even so come quickly antichrist!!!
I will keep my belief with the old teachings of scripture that Christ will have 2 distinct returns one in the air called the rapture and one on Mt of Olives called the second coming with 7yrs of tribulation to go back and deal with the Jew between them.
If this is not correct and God will deal with the church during the tribulation period, when is the last week of Daniel dealing with the Jew going to occur? answer that post tribbers!
Both Historic Premillennialism HP (A relatively new name given to a wrong belief) and dispensational Premillennialism DP wrongly attributed to Darby in the 1830's (who actually renewed the correct thinking about the pretrib back then) but actually pretrib going back to the apostles time, are all about the belief that Christ will come back before the Millennial kingdom.
No where are these words in the Bible mentioned. That is Millennialism or pretrib or posttrib or prewrath or post wrath, rapture or Amillennialism.
This is what the Bible says:
1. Christ will reign for a thousand years. Rev. 20. That is what is meant by the Millennial kingdom.
2. Pretrib (DP) believers believe Jesus will come back but not touch down to the earth before the tribulation period. We will meet Him in the air. 1Thes 4.
3. It will be before the 7 yr period that is left in the book of Daniel. Chapter 9 the 70 weeks of years.
4.62 weeks of years plus 7 weeks of years are already accounted for in Daniel. 49 years to rebuild the temple in Nehemiah's time and 434 yrs from the time the temple is rebuilt till Messiah is cut off (Jesus dies on the cross).
The last week of years in Daniel is known as the 7yr tribulation period and is not dealing with the church as the book of Revelation says to the Philadelphian church.
How do we know that these are weeks of years? because the Jews say so. They know the Hebrew language and have always said these are weeks of years. There are other proofs that these weeks are years but this is the only one we need to have. Usually there is no arguing this fact.
5. Posttrib premillennialism (HP) is a belief that Jesus will come back only once; at the second coming after the 7r tribulation period which is for the Jews and not the church. Why would we go through something designed for the Jew and not the church?
Post tribbers (HP) say that instantly we will be taken and in that twinkling of an eye all these things will occur.
A.. The judgment seat of Christ for millions of church age saints( the Bride of Christ) that will be shedding real tears for the life they did not live for Jesus.
B. Crown of rejoicing (1 thes 2:9) only to those who look for His appearing not His second coming
(Rapture) not His touch down to earth.
C. Crowns for Rightousness;
D. Crowns for Glory.
E. Crowns of life for running the race
F. We will cast these back during the tribulation period of 7 yrs. If HP where true when do we do this?
G. The wedding feast of the Lamb (Rev 19)
H. Try saying
Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth
In the tinkling of an eye? It cannot be done. but post millennial people think that all this will take place when the rapture and the second coming occur simultaneously. For that is posttrib belief.
I. Second coming of Jesus in power and great glory! (Why would Jesus want to do this in the twinkling of an eye??? Do you not think He wants the whole world or what is left of it to see His great return)
J. Also we will be given our positions to reign with Christ at His return Rev 20:6 How much time will be needed to give out these positions? If we have a 7 yr period there is enough time. but if the rapture and the second coming are simultaneous then there is no time.
How fast is the twinkling of an eye? 1/20th of a second. Can Jesus do this? of course He can! But we can not!! We can not even say Alleluia in 1/20th of a second!
Make no mistake the post tribbers (HP) allow no time between a rapture and the second coming and most believe there will be no rapture just a second coming at the end of the 7 yr trib period which is for God to go back and deal with the Jews for the last time. The 7 yr tribulation period is not for the church but for the Jew just as the first 483yrs of Daniel's time frame were for the Jew. The church is not a part of it. We will have nothing to do with it, and we will have seven yrs. to be with Christ at His Bema seat to receive crowns, and at the marriage feast to be the bride of Christ, and at the reign of Christ to receive our orders on where to reign. Plenty of time for that in 7 yrs.
In the description of Jesus Christ's return it is mentioned in 2 distinct ways. First He comes back as a thief in the night. Quietly, secretly, unsuspecting for His own. The second time it is with power and great glory, His second coming to defeat Satan and all who oppose Him. Two distinct separate returns, one not touching down on the earth (Rapture) and the next touching down on the earth (Second Coming.)
At the end of Revelation we are told by John to look for His coming or His Appearing. It is the Greek word
er'-khom-ahee
And means appearing
The word "come" in its other translations does not mean this.
We are praying that the Lord Jesus will appear quickly in the Air.
Post tribbers (HPers) are not looking for the imminent return of Jesus to appear.
Post tribbers (HPers) are looking for the start of the tribulation period according to them will occur at the revealing of Anti-Christ.
So what are they praying? Not what John said to pray! they are looking for the revealing of Antichrist so they are praying Even so come quickly antichrist!!!
I will keep my belief with the old teachings of scripture that Christ will have 2 distinct returns one in the air called the rapture and one on Mt of Olives called the second coming with 7yrs of tribulation to go back and deal with the Jew between them.
If this is not correct and God will deal with the church during the tribulation period, when is the last week of Daniel dealing with the Jew going to occur? answer that post tribbers!
You forgot this timeline:
Mat 24:3-4
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mat 24:3-4
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Unlike John's prayer:You forgot this timeline:
Mat 24:3-4
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Revelation 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
John writes these words ca. 98 A.D. over a quarter of a century after the Temple had been destroyed, the Jews had been destroyed and some of the prophesies here had been only partially fulfilled.
The disciples had asked a different question:
Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
They are there by the Temple and Jesus points to it. He tells them it will be completely destroyed. They go to the Mount of Olives from where they can see the Temple.
When the disciples ask "What shall be the sign of thy coming and of the end of the world," they only know of the Kingdom. Revelation is progressive.
Remember that at this point they didn't even understand about the death and resurrection of Jesus. They were Jews always looking for the Kingdom.
Even just before Pentecost, what was on their minds:
Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
But Jesus rebuked them:
Acts 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
Before the Kingdom is set up Christ will come in the glory of His Father with the power of his angels.Mat 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
When he comes with his armies (Rev.19), he will fight the enemies of the Jews. The Battle will be the Battle of Armageddon. At that time there will be signs in heaven. Then Israel shall turn to Christ and be saved. After that the Kingdom will start.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
ok. what's your point?
The point is you asked a question and I answered it!
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
from a good friend of mine Fred Kuypers:
Both Historic Premillennialism HP (A relatively new name given to a wrong belief) and dispensational Premillennialism DP wrongly attributed to Darby in the 1830's (who actually renewed the correct thinking about the pretrib back then) but actually pretrib going back to the apostles time, are all about the belief that Christ will come back before the Millennial kingdom.
No where are these words in the Bible mentioned. That is Millennialism or pretrib or posttrib or prewrath or post wrath, rapture or Amillennialism.
This is what the Bible says:
1. Christ will reign for a thousand years. Rev. 20. That is what is meant by the Millennial kingdom.
2. Pretrib (DP) believers believe Jesus will come back but not touch down to the earth before the tribulation period. We will meet Him in the air. 1Thes 4.
3. It will be before the 7 yr period that is left in the book of Daniel. Chapter 9 the 70 weeks of years.
4.62 weeks of years plus 7 weeks of years are already accounted for in Daniel. 49 years to rebuild the temple in Nehemiah's time and 434 yrs from the time the temple is rebuilt till Messiah is cut off (Jesus dies on the cross).
The last week of years in Daniel is known as the 7yr tribulation period and is not dealing with the church as the book of Revelation says to the Philadelphian church.
How do we know that these are weeks of years? because the Jews say so. They know the Hebrew language and have always said these are weeks of years. There are other proofs that these weeks are years but this is the only one we need to have. Usually there is no arguing this fact.
5. Posttrib premillennialism (HP) is a belief that Jesus will come back only once; at the second coming after the 7r tribulation period which is for the Jews and not the church. Why would we go through something designed for the Jew and not the church?
Post tribbers (HP) say that instantly we will be taken and in that twinkling of an eye all these things will occur.
A.. The judgment seat of Christ for millions of church age saints( the Bride of Christ) that will be shedding real tears for the life they did not live for Jesus.
B. Crown of rejoicing (1 thes 2:9) only to those who look for His appearing not His second coming
(Rapture) not His touch down to earth.
C. Crowns for Rightousness;
D. Crowns for Glory.
E. Crowns of life for running the race
F. We will cast these back during the tribulation period of 7 yrs. If HP where true when do we do this?
G. The wedding feast of the Lamb (Rev 19)
H. Try saying
Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth
In the tinkling of an eye? It cannot be done. but post millennial people think that all this will take place when the rapture and the second coming occur simultaneously. For that is posttrib belief.
I. Second coming of Jesus in power and great glory! (Why would Jesus want to do this in the twinkling of an eye??? Do you not think He wants the whole world or what is left of it to see His great return)
J. Also we will be given our positions to reign with Christ at His return Rev 20:6 How much time will be needed to give out these positions? If we have a 7 yr period there is enough time. but if the rapture and the second coming are simultaneous then there is no time.
How fast is the twinkling of an eye? 1/20th of a second. Can Jesus do this? of course He can! But we can not!! We can not even say Alleluia in 1/20th of a second!
Make no mistake the post tribbers (HP) allow no time between a rapture and the second coming and most believe there will be no rapture just a second coming at the end of the 7 yr trib period which is for God to go back and deal with the Jews for the last time. The 7 yr tribulation period is not for the church but for the Jew just as the first 483yrs of Daniel's time frame were for the Jew. The church is not a part of it. We will have nothing to do with it, and we will have seven yrs. to be with Christ at His Bema seat to receive crowns, and at the marriage feast to be the bride of Christ, and at the reign of Christ to receive our orders on where to reign. Plenty of time for that in 7 yrs.
In the description of Jesus Christ's return it is mentioned in 2 distinct ways. First He comes back as a thief in the night. Quietly, secretly, unsuspecting for His own. The second time it is with power and great glory, His second coming to defeat Satan and all who oppose Him. Two distinct separate returns, one not touching down on the earth (Rapture) and the next touching down on the earth (Second Coming.)
At the end of Revelation we are told by John to look for His coming or His Appearing. It is the Greek word
er'-khom-ahee
And means appearing
The word "come" in its other translations does not mean this.
We are praying that the Lord Jesus will appear quickly in the Air.
Post tribbers (HPers) are not looking for the imminent return of Jesus to appear.
Post tribbers (HPers) are looking for the start of the tribulation period according to them will occur at the revealing of Anti-Christ.
So what are they praying? Not what John said to pray! they are looking for the revealing of Antichrist so they are praying Even so come quickly antichrist!!!
I will keep my belief with the old teachings of scripture that Christ will have 2 distinct returns one in the air called the rapture and one on Mt of Olives called the second coming with 7yrs of tribulation to go back and deal with the Jew between them.
If this is not correct and God will deal with the church during the tribulation period, when is the last week of Daniel dealing with the Jew going to occur? answer that post tribbers!
Sounds like gobbledygook to me! The Biblical truth is: Jesus Christ will return, there will be a general resurrection of all the dead followed by the White Throne Judgment. Satan and his, those who died in Adam, will be cast into the lake of fire; the Saints will enter the New Heavens and New Earth to live eternally with the Triune GOD!
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Sounds like gobbledygook to me! The Biblical truth is: Jesus Christ will return, there will be a general resurrection of all the dead followed by the White Throne Judgment. Satan and his, those who died in Adam, will be cast into the lake of fire; the Saints will enter the New Heavens and New Earth to live eternally with the Triune GOD!
There's a 1,000 year reign.
I see not a single example in scripture where a number in the bible does not mean the number that it says.
Find me one other example in the bible where a number is used that means anything other than a number of something. that's the whole point of numbers you know.
Just because you can't reconcile the 2 verses in John you quoted with the passage in Revelation that clearly states has 1,000 year reign of Christ, does not mean the solution is to spiritualize away the 1,000 year reign stated in Revelation. Perhaps you should start looking for other explanations for the passage in John that you quoted earlier, because that one seems to be more apt to being misunderstood than the clear cut passages in Revelation on the 1,000 year period.
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Dispensationalists destroy Daniel's prophecy of 70 weeks! Then you might consider Gods remarks to Elijah who was fleeing from Jezebel about the 7000 in Israel. Elijah would have made at least 7001!There's a 1,000 year reign.
I see not a single example in scripture where a number in the bible does not mean the number that it says.
Find me one other example in the bible where a number is used that means anything other than a number of something. that's the whole point of numbers you know.
Just because you can't reconcile the 2 verses in John you quoted with the passage in Revelation that clearly states has 1,000 year reign of Christ, does not mean the solution is to spiritualize away the 1,000 year reign stated in Revelation. Perhaps you should start looking for other explanations for the passage in John that you quoted earlier, because that one seems to be more apt to being misunderstood than the clear cut passages in Revelation on the 1,000 year period.
I can reconcile two verses in John with Revelation 20:1-6. The First and only Resurrection to date is that of Jesus Christ, Those who have part in the First Resurrection, the resurrection of Jesus Christ, are those who are saved by HIM. It is foolish to say that apocalyptic language of Revelation is more "clear cut" than the words of Jesus Christ recorded in John 5:28, 29. Dispensationalists cannot reconcile their doctrine of errors with John 5:28, 29 and that is the truth.
Furthermore, preeminent dispensational doctrinaire John Walvoord, former president of Dallas theological Seminary disagrees with your remarks on specific time. Walvoord writes in Major Bible Prophecies that the time lapse between “the Rapture” and the “Second Coming” will be more than seven years [pages 283, 293]?
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