Historic VS Contemporary Arminianism

[Yeshua1]

In that book it is said that Luther was more Calvinistic than John Calvin himself! It is very,very good.

didn't Luther write this to Erasmus, he of Greek text fame? Erasmus was holding to "humanistic" new thought, and Luther was refuting him back?

 

[MB]

I suggest you study the Apostolic and early church fathers in detail. They may be excused from many of their errors because post-apostolic doctrine was, to put it simply, a mess.

You need to stop this, "nowhere found in the Bible" nonsense. You may disagree with the Reformed hermeneutic, but it does find basis for its belief about the human will in the Bible.

You are Arminian to the extent that you believe man chooses God pre-regeneration.

Certainly man chooses to surrender. This is something Paul said his Jewish brothers lacked. Rom 10;1-4 Man believing in His Son is a matter of the work of the Holy Spirit to convince man. God chose me first to draw me to Him. I chose to give up the rebellion and be with Christ for eternity. Yes I chose Christ to. Show me where the Bible says I can't do that. No Calvinist ever has. Want to know why? Because Roman 10-20 does not say we are disabled from doing it. The fact that scripture clearly states No man can come to Him unless drawn does not mean we can't because;
Joh_12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Yes it says all men no matter how much you may want to deny it and say it is speaking about the elect. Your election is a figment of your imagination. You can't prove it at all from Scripture. Read Rom. 11
Then there is the false doctrine of replacement of the Jews. This is nothing short of complete denial of the truth of scripture.

That does not mean you embrace all Arminian teaching. I am called a Calvinist even though I disagree with paedobaptism and Presbyterian ecclesiology; key teachings of John Calvin. I accept the term because it accurately describes my view of salvation.

All I agree on can be found in scripture. I do not accept total depravity in any of it's parts. It does not exsit in scripture.
The atonement is only applied to those who believe first.
I do not accept that Gentiles are elected based on their faith Gentiles are chosen not elected Period. Read Romans 11
God is resistible the Jews did it, Jonah did it, Adam did it, David did it, and they all knew God when they did it. Everyman who sins does it. This shows how ignorant irresistible grace really is.
Oh yes I believe I can't loose my Salvation, does that make me a Calvinist?
Perseverance of the saints is works to maintain Salvation. Making Salvation a reward for a job well done, instead of it being a free gift.
This last pedal of the tulip is nothing short of a contradiction of faith. Is it of works or faith? Perseverance certainly is a work.
MB

 

[Yeshua1]

Certainly man chooses to surrender. This is something Paul said his Jewish brothers lacked. Rom 10;1-4 Man believing in His Son is a matter of the work of the Holy Spirit to convince man. God chose me first to draw me to Him. I chose to give up the rebellion and be with Christ for eternity. Yes I chose Christ to. Show me where the Bible says I can't do that. No Calvinist ever has. Want to know why? Because Roman 10-20 does not say we are disabled from doing it. The fact that scripture clearly states No man can come to Him unless drawn does not mean we can't because;
Joh_12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Yes it says all men no matter how much you may want to deny it and say it is speaking about the elect. Your election is a figment of your imagination. You can't prove it at all from Scripture. Read Rom. 11
Then there is the false doctrine of replacement of the Jews. This is nothing short of complete denial of the truth of scripture.

All I agree on can be found in scripture. I do not accept total depravity in any of it's parts. It does not exsit in scripture.
The atonement is only applied to those who believe first.
I do not accept that Gentiles are elected based on their faith Gentiles are chosen not elected Period. Read Romans 11
God is resistible the Jews did it, Jonah did it, Adam did it, David did it, and they all knew God when they did it. Everyman who sins does it. This shows how ignorant irresistible grace really is.
Oh yes I believe I can't loose my Salvation, does that make me a Calvinist?
Perseverance of the saints is works to maintain Salvation. Making Salvation a reward for a job well done, instead of it being a free gift.
This last pedal of the tulip is nothing short of a contradiction of faith. Is it of works or faith? Perseverance certainly is a work.
MB

Interesting that the grace of god that is MEANT too soecifiically save someone chosen to salvation can be resisted!

Does that mean the will of God is hindered and prevented from happening?

 

[MB]

Interesting that the grace of god that is MEANT too soecifiically save someone chosen to salvation can be resisted!

Does that mean the will of God is hindered and prevented from happening?

Must be because God is not willing that any perrish.
MB

 

[Rippon]

Joh_12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

The Lord draws all kinds of people to Himself;not each and every individual. If you agree that drawing is always unto salvation than you are in harmony with John 6. If you think that each and every person from the dawn of time has and shall be drawn and united with Christ...you are a Universalist.

All I agree on can be found in scripture. I do not accept total depravity in any of it's parts. It does not exsit [sic]in scripture.

It means pervasive in human nature. If someone is dead in their trespasses and sins is that a corrupt and depraved condition or not?

Oh yes I believe I can't loose[sic] my Salvation, does that make me a Calvinist?

Certainly not. you are simply being inconsistent.

Perseverance of the saints is works to maintain Salvation.

Certainly not MB! Have you ever craked open a book of Bible doctrine before?

 

[Yeshua1]

The Lord draws all kinds of people to Himself;not each and every individual. If you agree that drawing is always unto salvation than you are in harmony with John 6. If you think that each and every person from the dawn of time has and shall be drawn and united with Christ...you are a Universalist.






It means pervasive in human nature. If someone is dead in their trespasses and sins is that a corrupt and depraved condition or not?




Certainly not. you are simply being inconsistent.



Certainly not MB! Have you ever craked open a book of Bible doctrine before?

IF All men will be drawn to me means that God intended all sinners to be saved by the Cross of Christ, then the will of Man to stop from getting savd MUST exceed tje power of God to get His will accomplished!

 

[12strings]

This is going to sound harsh...but you sound like you are just throwing out any statement that you think sounds like it might possibly make calvinism look bad...statements unsupported by facts or logic:

Gentiles are chosen not elected Period. Read Romans 11

-Elected means chosen. They are synonyms...period.

Perseverance of the saints is works to maintain Salvation.

This is a misrepresentation of the Perseverance view. In fact it's the opposite.

I'm also called an Arminian yet what I believe does not agree with any of their doctrines.

I'm sure you agree with SOME of their doctrines...Every Christian does.

There was nothing good about John Calvin.

No matter who you said this about, it would likely be mistaken.

You would be sadly mistaken if you believe Calvin wasn't a true Catholic. He was he just disagreed with the way the church was going. So he moved to Geneva and worked real hard to form his own Catholic church with him as pope.

Every historian will tell you that Calvin WAS a catholic, then left the catholic church, ie, became a non-catholic.

Also, Calvin didn't want leadership in Geneva. They had to beg him do do it.

You also have quite a few challenged facts from Rippon that you have not made any effort to validate or defend.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

LOL...floats like a butterfly & stings like a bee:laugh:

 

[MB]

This is going to sound harsh...but you sound like you are just throwing out any statement that you think sounds like it might possibly make calvinism look bad...statements unsupported by facts or logic:



-Elected means chosen. They are synonyms...period.

Not the elect of God
I had this same argument with you on another thread and I showed you that God's elect and just plain elect have different meanings. God's elect in Romans 8:33 is speaking about the Jews Unless you are saying that God is a respecter of the Gentiles; You were never elected 12 strings. Not ever, no way. Gentiles are chosen Jews are elected. Some of the branches were broken out of the olive tree that we might be grafted in. Not all the branches were broken out of the tree. Still those broken branches can be grafted back and how much more do you suppose the root will receive them?

Your view of election does not make it true that you are elect. Look at the difference again in Strongs dictionary G1588 and G1586

This is a misrepresentation of the Perseverance view. In fact it's the opposite.

That word "Perseverance" backs up what I wrote about it. Calvinism says you have to persevere. In other words you have to work to preserve your Salvation. I'm sick of hearing I don't understand as if Calvinism is difficult. Every word in the dictionary is wrong according to Calvinist. This is why you work so hard to prove those words don't mean what they say. How in the world can you believe all this stuff. Your so steeped in it that you actually think you have some special understanding non Calvinist don't have. Wake up and smell the coffee son. Pride always goes before the fall. It's ok to step off that pedestal and live in reality.

I'm sure you agree with SOME of their doctrines...Every Christian does.

I agree that Christ died for the sins of the whole world was buried for three days and then rose again and now sit's at the right hand of the Father. Does this make me a Calvinist or, Arminian or, Pelagan, How about Catholic or, Jehovah's Witness. How about I start calling you all Catholics?

No matter who you said this about, it would likely be mistaken.

No it isn't John Calvin didn't have one good thing in Him. Christ said there is none good but the Father. Are you stating that Calvin is God?

Every historian will tell you that Calvin WAS a catholic, then left the catholic church, ie, became a non-catholic.

Yes and after he left he wrote there is no Salvation apart from the Holy Roman church.

Also, Calvin didn't want leadership in Geneva. They had to beg him do do it.

LOL yeah they twisted his arm.

You also have quite a few challenged facts from Rippon that you have not made any effort to validate or defend.

All I saw was denial of things already shown to be true.
MB

 

[HeirofSalvation]

In other words you have to work to preserve your Salvation.

HUH???? Much as I would LOVE to find any random cheap dig to diss Calvinism...I can't FATHOM how someone could think that the "P" of TULIP...(Perseverence) is even remotely works-based...

Trust me, I'll sniff out any anti-Calvie stuff I can find... what is so insipid about the creatures is that you can't POSSIBLY accuse them of believing in a "works" Soteriology...If it were there, I'd have found it. It isn't. By the god's I wish it were, and oh would I sacrifice EVERY DAY if I could prove it, but, I can't. Whatever is wrong with Calvinism (and there's plenty in my book) teaching a "works" salvation isn't one of them.....

Confusing "faith" with a "work"????
Yes, they often do....
But they don't preach a "works" salvation.

MB: I'll do everything I can to eradicate Calvinism from the evangelical stage, except for mis-represent it's teachings... It's guilty of a LOT IMO...but teaching "works" salvation for "perseverence" isn't one of them.

 

[MB]

The Lord draws all kinds of people to Himself;not each and every individual. If you agree that drawing is always unto salvation than you are in harmony with John 6. If you think that each and every person from the dawn of time has and shall be drawn and united with Christ...you are a Universalist.

Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Your not trying to tell me your right and the Bible is wrong are you? Of course you are. By the way. Your much closer to being a Catholic than I am.

It means pervasive in human nature. If someone is dead in their trespasses and sins is that a corrupt and depraved condition or not?

I don't believe in total depravity. It's a lie just like all the other pedals of the tulip. It can not be found in scripture anywhere. You have no proof of an inability of man to respond

Certainly not. you are simply being inconsistent.

How am I inconsistent Rippon? Is it because you are unable to defend the doctrine you hold so highly.

Certainly not MB! Have you ever craked open a book of Bible doctrine before?

Perseverance is still something you have to do inorder to maintian your Salvation. That is what this word suggest do you deny that? Perseverance is a works to keep Salvation doctrine. I didn't name it that Calvinist did that.
Romans 4:5

 

[Iconoclast]

MB.
Hos has tried in mercy to throw in the towel for you.Take the hint-

Perseverance is still something you have to do inorder to maintian your Salvation. That is what this word suggest do you deny that? Perseverance is a works to keep Salvation doctrine. I didn't name it that Calvinist did that.
Romans 4:5

i do not see what you post ,stated here...do you?

Chapter 17: Of The Perseverance of the Saints
1._____ Those whom God hath accepted in the beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, and given the precious faith of his elect unto, can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved, seeing the gifts and callings of God are without repentance, whence he still begets and nourisheth in them faith, repentance, love, joy, hope, and all the graces of the Spirit unto immortality; and though many storms and floods arise and beat against them, yet they shall never be able to take them off that foundation and rock which by faith they are fastened upon; notwithstanding, through unbelief and the temptations of Satan, the sensible sight of the light and love of God may for a time be clouded and obscured from them, yet he is still the same, and they shall be sure to be kept by the power of God unto salvation, where they shall enjoy their purchased possession, they being engraven upon the palm of his hands, and their names having been written in the book of life from all eternity.
( John 10:28, 29; Philippians 1:6; 2 Timothy 2:19; 1 John 2:19; Psalms 89:31, 32; 1 Corinthians 11:32; Malachi 3:6 )

2._____ This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father, upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ and union with him, the oath of God, the abiding of his Spirit, and the seed of God within them, and the nature of the covenant of grace; from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof.
( Romans 8:30 Romans 9:11, 16; Romans 5:9, 10; John 14:19; Hebrews 6:17, 18; 1 John 3:9; Jeremiah 32:40 )

3._____ And though they may, through the temptation of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins, and for a time continue therein, whereby they incur God's displeasure and grieve his Holy Spirit, come to have their graces and comforts impaired, have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded, hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves, yet shall they renew their repentance and be preserved through faith in Christ Jesus to the end.
( Matthew 26:70, 72, 74; Isaiah 64:5, 9; Ephesians 4:30; Psalms 51:10, 12; Psalms 32:3, 4; 2 Samuel 12:14; Luke 22:32, 61, 62 )

Here is the target on this one point....can you respond .....look up the verses first if you feel up to it. You can even phone a friend if you want to.

 

[MB]

Perseverance is still something you have to do to maintain your Salvation. Perseverance, is works.
MB

 

[Yeshua1]

Perseverance is still something you have to do to maintain your Salvation. Perseverance, is works.
MB

actually...

in the same way that one coming to faith in Christ will confirm/prove/show they were Elect of god, in like fashion, one now saved will endure to the end, for the same God who saved them also will make sure they get home to him in the end!

one confirms the election at the start, other confirms it at the finish!

 

[MB]

actually...

in the same way that one coming to faith in Christ will confirm/prove/show they were Elect of god, in like fashion, one now saved will endure to the end, for the same God who saved them also will make sure they get home to him in the end!

one confirms the election at the start, other confirms it at the finish!

This is all said by men, none of it said by God's word. This is why particular election of Gentiles to Salvation is false. Men can write there own doctrine and even convince themselves of it but, that still does not make it true. This doctrine is based on lies. The only elect of God are the Jews and if you weren't born a Jew you never will be a Jew.
MB

 

[12strings]

Not the elect of God
I had this same argument with you on another thread and I showed you that God's elect and just plain elect have different meanings. God's elect in Romans 8:33 is speaking about the Jews Unless you are saying that God is a respecter of the Gentiles; You were never elected 12 strings. Not ever, no way. Gentiles are chosen Jews are elected. Some of the branches were broken out of the olive tree that we might be grafted in. Not all the branches were broken out of the tree. Still those broken branches can be grafted back and how much more do you suppose the root will receive them?

Your view of election does not make it true that you are elect. Look at the difference again in Strongs dictionary G1588 and G1586

I'm not sure your meaning here. Are you saying I was chosen (Eph. 1) by God but not elected (Rom. 8)?

That word "Perseverance" backs up what I wrote about it. Calvinism says you have to persevere. In other words you have to work to preserve your Salvation. I'm sick of hearing I don't understand as if Calvinism is difficult. Every word in the dictionary is wrong according to Calvinist. This is why you work so hard to prove those words don't mean what they say. How in the world can you believe all this stuff. Your so steeped in it that you actually think you have some special understanding non Calvinist don't have. Wake up and smell the coffee son. Pride always goes before the fall. It's ok to step off that pedestal and live in reality.

"Perseverance of the saints" view states that those who are true Christians WILL perservere in belief to the end of their lives...not "they have to." They WILL... God's spirit will ensure it...if they do not perservere, they give evidence that they were never true believers in the first place.

Perserverance as a word carries very little specific meaning. Most words are this way:
-You must perservere, or you will lose your salvation (Wesleyan view)
-As a true Christian, You WILL perservere in belief...through God's spirit in you. (Calvinist view)
(The word can mean opposite things depending on the usage).

I agree that Christ died for the sins of the whole world was buried for three days and then rose again and now sit's at the right hand of the Father. Does this make me a Calvinist or, Arminian or, Pelagan, How about Catholic or, Jehovah's Witness. How about I start calling you all Catholics?

It doesn't mean any of those things, it simply means you DO agree with arminians on some doctrines.

No it isn't John Calvin didn't have one good thing in Him. Christ said there is none good but the Father. Are you stating that Calvin is God?

So you would say the same thing, "There is nothing good about him." regarding the people you most admire in the world? Your pastor, father, close friends?

LOL yeah they twisted his arm.

from Wikipedia...

Due to military maneuvers of imperial and French forces, he was forced to make a detour to the south, bringing him to Geneva.

Calvin had only intended to stay a single night, but William Farel, a fellow French reformer residing in the city, implored a most reluctant Calvin to stay and assist him in work of reforming the church there – it was his duty before God, Farel insisted. Yet Calvin, for his part, desired only peace and privacy. But it was not to be; Farel's entreaties prevailed, but not before his having had recourse to the sternest imprecations. Calvin recalls the rather intense encounter:

Then Farel, who was working with incredible zeal to promote the gospel, bent all his efforts to keep me in the city. And when he realized that I was determined to study in privacy in some obscure place, and saw that he gained nothing by entreaty, he descended to cursing, and said that God would surely curse my peace if I held back from giving help at a time of such great need.[13] Terrified by his words, and conscience of my own timidity and cowardice, I gave up my journey and attempted to apply whatever gift I had in defense of my faith.[14]

Calvin accepted without any preconditions on his tasks or duties.[15] The office to which he was initially assigned is unknown. He was eventually given the title of "reader", which most likely meant that he could give expository lectures on the Bible.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Perseverance is still something you have to do to maintain your Salvation. Perseverance, is works.

No...it's REALLY not. It might be given Wesleyan assumptions...but Calvinists don't hold to those:

This line of argument...that Calvinists teach a "works" basis for "perseverance".. is, just, not in fact true...
I'll nail Calvies any way I can: But, I'll be intellectually honest when I do so...and for all their innumerable crimes...they don't teach works-based Perseverence....If they did, I'd be on them like a fat-kid on cake...they don't.

Do they understand the difference between "faith" and "works"? In my opinion, no...they don't (some of them anyway)...and I now debate one on the topic...

But, don't do as they do...don't mis-represent them...they do that to us...we are too Christlike to attempt to win debates in the putrescent way they do...which is namely...to mis-represent their opposition.

We are better than that.

 

[Yeshua1]

No...it's REALLY not. It might be given Wesleyan assumptions...but Calvinists don't hold to those:

This line of argument...that Calvinists teach a "works" basis for "perseverance".. is, just, not in fact true...
I'll nail Calvies any way I can: But, I'll be intellectually honest when I do so...and for all their innumerable crimes...they don't teach works-based Perseverence....If they did, I'd be on them like a fat-kid on cake...they don't.

Do they understand the difference between "faith" and "works"? In my opinion, no...they don't (some of them anyway)...and I now debate one on the topic...

But, don't do as they do...don't mis-represent them...they do that to us...we are too Christlike to attempt to win debates in the putrescent way they do...which is namely...to mis-represent their opposition.

We are better than that.

Don't think MB really understood in that area what calvinists mean by that term, so "no harm/no foul!"