Historicity of the change of the Sabbath Commandment vs Sola Scriptura

[BobRyan]

sabbath instituted and given By God to ISREAl, and not extended unto the church under the new Covenant...

until you actually read the New Covenant where God says that it is the Laws known to Jeremiah and his readers that is "written on the heart and mind" -- And that the NEW Covenant is made with "The house of Israel"

Details matter.

 

[utilyan]

until you actually read the New Covenant where God says that it is the Laws known to Jeremiah and his readers that is "written on the heart and mind" -- And that the NEW Covenant is made with "The house of Israel"

Details matter.

Hebrews 8
7For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.

What is wrong with the first covenant?

Hebrews 8
13When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

Scripture is clear the old covenant is obsolete.
What exactly became obsolete?




Ephesians 2

11Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands— 12remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, 16and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.

He abolished the ordinances of the commandments that specifically split Gentiles and Jews.
These are STRANGERS to the covenants.

Can you think of any ordinance in the 10 commandments?

Hint: a ordinance is UNLIKE a CRIME.


2 Corinthians 3
14But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. 15But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; 16but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

 

[utilyan]

How do you keep the Sabbath holy?
STEP 1 You have to get a circumcision .
John 7
21Jesus answered them, “I did one deed, and you all marvel. 22“For this reason Moses has given you circumcision (not because it is from Moses, but from the fathers), and on the Sabbath you circumcise a man. 23“If a man receives circumcision on the Sabbath so that the Law of Moses will not be broken, are you angry with Me because I made an entire man well on the Sabbath? 2
In order for that man to keep the Sabbath, LAW OF MOSES, they would circumcise the man.
The RULES of circumcision didn't come from LAW of Moses. We are talking back in Abrahams day.
But to NOT offend and break the SABBATH , to not BREAK the LAW OF MOSES, The man had to be circumcised!
ENTER acts 15
1Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”


The Judaisers would be completely CORRECT. A Man can't keep a Sabbath without being circumcised.


Understand The Law of Moses didn't bring circumcision, Circumcision started with Abraham I think? Long before Moses.

But BREAKING Sabbath, That is LAW OF MOSES. So to prevent breaking Sabbath they would circumcise a man on sabbath.

Jesus uses this illustration he was making a man "whole" on the Sabbath.

 

[DHK]

When I say --

All affirmed by C.H. Spurgeon... the "Baptist Confession of Faith" ... the "Westminster Confession of Faith" -- Is 66:23... Mark 2:27... Eph 6:2...James 2... Rom 3:31... 1 Cor 7:19.... Rev 14:12 ..

You ask about?? Rev 14:12?? or 1 Cor 7:19?? or is it all the latter references?
-- Is 66:23... Mark 2:27... Eph 6:2...James 2... Rom 3:31... 1 Cor 7:19.... Rev 14:12 ..

What about Hezekiah 3:2?
You have not demonstrated that any of the above verses give a command for Gentile believers of this NT dispensation should keep the Sabbath. Not one verse.

I find your logic "illusive" at that point

Why is that? You are quoting men?
Why not quote the RC Popes, or Charles Taze Russell, or Joseph Smith? Or, why not Jim Jones? He also was a religious leader was he not? Is that all that matters to you? You cannot demonstrate your position through the Word of God, can you?

So ok - if those latter references are "not scripture" -- what would you "prefer" to call them?

Scripture is scripture. Not all scripture speaks about the Sabbath, as you have clearly demonstrated. You have not provided one scripture that demonstrates that we should keep the Sabbath. Where is it Bob? Where is that all important proof?
Does this also speak of the Sabbath?
1 Chronicles 26:18 At Parbar westward, four at the causeway, and two at Parbar.
--Relevance Bob, relevance!

Except Heb 4 "There REMAINS therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God"

The Sabbath (or rest) here is Christ Himself. Read Mat. 11:28-30. Believers enter into his rest when they get saved. It does not refer to a day. Believers in Christ do not keep the Sabbath. In fact you don't either if you were honest with yourself and us.

Since they are preaching the gospel to gentiles "EVERY SABBATH" in Acts 18:4.

Acts 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.
--Do you enter into the Synagogue and preach to the Jews every Saturday. Paul, being a former Jew, and a Rabbi, had that opportunity. Do you have the educational background that Paul had as a Jew?
Of course not! Neither would you be accepted by the Jewish community and you know that.
Why take Scripture out of context. Paul went to the Jew first and then to the Gentiles, until there came a time when the Jews would listen no longer and he ministered only to the Gentiles.

Might want to take a minute and read Rom 3:31 and 1 Cor 7:19 and Rev 14:12 and ...

I have. They say nothing about the Sabbath.

Oh no wait you meant "There is not one quote of the command not to take God's name in vain in the NT".

A red herring. It says nothing about the Sabbath.

You must have mistyped.

No mistype Bob. Read it again:

There is not one command in the NT that commands Gentile believers to keep the Sabbath.

 

[BobRyan]

What about Hezekiah 3:2?
You have not demonstrated that any of the above verses give a command for Gentile believers of this NT dispensation should keep the Sabbath.

And you have not found "do not take the Lord's name in vain" in the NT - no not once.

It is only 'in SCRIPTURE" - the "Word of God" -- the OT ... but you feel free to delete what you find in scripture if it is not fully repeated in total in the NT

Such "fluff rules" as that - are the heart-and-sole of failed arguments.

 

[BobRyan]

Acts 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

i am amazed you can bring yourself to quote that text.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
When I say --

All affirmed by C.H. Spurgeon... the "Baptist Confession of Faith" ... the "Westminster Confession of Faith" -- Is 66:23... Mark 2:27... Eph 6:2...James 2... Rom 3:31... 1 Cor 7:19.... Rev 14:12 ..

You ask about?? Rev 14:12?? or 1 Cor 7:19?? or is it all the latter references?
-- Is 66:23... Mark 2:27... Eph 6:2...James 2... Rom 3:31... 1 Cor 7:19.... Rev 14:12 ..

then you say

DHK said: ↑
These latter are now inspired of God?? Really Bob!

I find your logic "illusive" at that point

]
Why is that? You are quoting men?
Why not quote the RC Popes, or Charles Taze Russell, or Joseph Smith? Or, why not Jim Jones? He also was a religious leader was he not? Is that all that matters to you? You cannot demonstrate your position through the Word of God, can you?

I find your logic "illusive"

 

[BobRyan]

Acts 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

i am amazed you can bring yourself to quote that text.

H
The Judaisers would be completely CORRECT. A Man can't keep a Sabbath without being circumcised. .

Amazingly - DHK seems to have a better grasp of this than you. Not too surprising that you are taking the view of the Judaizer -- I think there is some similarity between RCC man-made-traditions and the Judaizers who engage in the same.

 

[DHK]

And you have not found "do not take the Lord's name in vain" in the NT - no not once.

It is only 'in SCRIPTURE" - the "Word of God" -- the OT ... but you feel free to delete what you find in scripture if it is not fully repeated in total in the NT

Such "fluff rules" as that - are the heart-and-sole of failed arguments.

Not in those exact words; it is not needed. The commands concerning conversation are more severe under grace than they are under the law.
Matthew 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

It is not just the idle words spoken against God that are condemned, as in the Ten Commandments, but rather every idle word in the believers life--he will give account of it. You are far more responsible in this age than under the law. EVERY WORD you will give account for, not just those spoken against God.
Yes, that covers "Thou shalt not take the Lord's name in vain", and covers it well.

You do err not knowing the scriptures.

But not once is there a command for a believer to keep the Sabbath. It isn't there and you have never demonstrated it.

 

[DHK]

i am amazed you can bring yourself to quote that text.

But you can't understand it, or at least won't admit you were wrong.
Of course I can quote it. I agree with it. Look, they were meeting in the Temple on the day of Pentecost and shortly there after until the Jews forbade them.
Then they preached in the synagogues until their welcome was warn out there.
They then met in houses, fields, even the cemeteries (catacombs), or wherever they could.

 

[utilyan]

I still hope to hear a response to the meat and potatoes of my post.

Jesus Christ has pointed out that a person is circumcised so they don't break The Law of Moses which is to keep the Sabbath.

Everyone knew the ordinances of Sabbath keeping started with Moses. That's why you don't hear about Abraham or Noah keeping Sabbath.


The requirement to keep the Sabbath was abolished along with circumcision. There is a procedure to KEEPING the Sabbath, its not simply putting a star sticker on Saturdays.


You never mention what you do to keep Sabbath, because if you did it would be a joke no where near the proper observance, starting with you have to be circumcised.

Even if we got rid of circumcision as a new modification of keep Sabbath, you are still left with hundreds of rules.

For example on Sabbath, You must run a generator at home, not use internet, not use public electricity, or water. Because if you do then you are causing others to labor on the day of rest.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

sabbath instituted and given By God to ISREAl, and not extended unto the church under the new Covenant...

Jesus Christ instituted the Sabbath and gave it to "The People of God" Spiritual Israel <<The Church under the New Covenant>> having RAISED FROM THE DEAD "ON THE SABBATH"— as the Sabbath in the Old Testament from the beginning of the world, promised, prophesied and typified.


And what men like you have to say, carries no weight, either in favour of, or, in defiance of GOD’S TRUTH. You are wasting your breath ---the breath God gave you to be your breath of life. Don’t waste it in service of lies and fear.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Jesus Christ has pointed out that a person is circumcised so they don't break The Law of Moses which is to keep the Sabbath.

You mutilate the Scriptures, and that is why you don't receive answers.
Stop expecting answers.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Everyone knew the ordinances of Sabbath keeping started with Moses. That's why you don't hear about Abraham or Noah keeping Sabbath

That is correct.

But you keep your eyes closed to the fact Noah and Abraham observed the sacrificial ordinances of the Law of Moses.

Can you explain that? Until you can, don't even mention what you have <<not hear(d) about, Abraham or Noah keeping the Sabbath>>, wise guy.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

You never mention what you do to keep Sabbath, because if you did it would be a joke no where near the proper observance, starting with you have to be circumcised.

...........

For example on Sabbath, You must run a generator at home, not use internet, not use public electricity, or water. Because if you do then you are causing others to labor on the day of rest.

Legalists spontaneously evolve from traces of tyrannosaurus DNA mistaken for Scriptures.

 

[DHK]

I still hope to hear a response to the meat and potatoes of my post.

Jesus Christ has pointed out that a person is circumcised so they don't break The Law of Moses which is to keep the Sabbath.

Circumcision is not required today; neither is keeping the Sabbath.

Everyone knew the ordinances of Sabbath keeping started with Moses. That's why you don't hear about Abraham or Noah keeping Sabbath.

The requirement to keep the Sabbath was abolished along with circumcision. There is a procedure to KEEPING the Sabbath, its not simply putting a star sticker on Saturdays.

You never mention what you do to keep Sabbath, because if you did it would be a joke no where near the proper observance, starting with you have to be circumcised.

Even if we got rid of circumcision as a new modification of keep Sabbath, you are still left with hundreds of rules.

For example on Sabbath, You must run a generator at home, not use internet, not use public electricity, or water. Because if you do then you are causing others to labor on the day of rest.

Take a look here. Here is how a Messianic Jew today would keep the Sabbath.
http://www.jewfaq.org/shabbat.htm

All of these tasks are prohibited, as well as any task that operates by the same principle or has the same purpose. In addition, the rabbis have prohibited handling any implement that is intended to perform one of the above purposes (for example, a hammer, a pencil or a match) unless the tool is needed for a permitted purpose (using a hammer to crack nuts when nothing else is available) or needs to be moved to do something permitted (moving a pencil that is sitting on a prayer book), or in certain other limited circumstances. Objects that may not be handled on Shabbat are referred to as "muktzeh," which means, "that which is set aside," because you set it aside (and don't use it unnecessarily) on Shabbat.

The rabbis have also prohibited travel, buying and selling, and other weekday tasks that would interfere with the spirit of Shabbat. The use of electricity is prohibited because it serves the same function as fire or some of the other prohibitions, or because it is technically considered to be "fire."

The automobile is powered by an internal combustion engine, which operates by burning gasoline and oil, a clear violation of the Torah prohibition against kindling a fire.

At about 2PM or 3PM on Friday afternoon, observant Jews leave the office to begin Shabbat preparations. ...the house is cleaned, the family bathes and dresses up, the best dishes and tableware are set, a festive meal is prepared.

Shabbat candles are lit and a blessing is recited no later than eighteen minutes before sunset.
They had to keep burning throughout the night. No match could be struck if a candle went out for that would be work. No electricity could be used.

Do you really keep the Sabbath Bob?

 

[BobRyan]

Scripture is clear the old covenant is obsolete.
What exactly became obsolete?

Not the TEN Commandments.

Eph 6:2 "Honor your father and mother - for this is the FIRST commandment WITH a promise" -- only true in that unit of the TEN Commandments.

The point remains - the SAME LAW known to Jeremiah and his readers - is in the 'NEW Covenant" where "I will write MY LAWS on their heart and on their mind" Jer 31:31-33 ... i.e. the NEW covenant.

And yet there are ceremonial ordinance that are done away with - such as animal sacrifice in the NT

Can you think of any ordinance in the 10 commandments?

That is nonsensical - all law is - is a list of ordinances... even Lev 19:18 is LAW.

1 John 3:4 "SIN IS transgression of the LAW"[/QUOTE]

The entire protestant reformation is about rejecting tradition and choosing the "Word of God" instead.

 

[BobRyan]

DHK said: ↑
What about Hezekiah 3:2?
You have not demonstrated that any of the above verses give a command for Gentile believers of this NT dispensation should keep the Sabbath.
And you have not found "do not take the Lord's name in vain" in the NT - no not once.

It is only 'in SCRIPTURE" - the "Word of God" -- the OT ... but you feel free to delete what you find in scripture if it is not fully repeated in total in the NT

Such "fluff rules" as that - are the heart-and-sole of failed arguments.

Not in those exact words; it is not needed.

It is not needed in the NT (and yet remains binding) because of the RULE James sites - in James 2. the rule of "HE who SAID"

James 2
9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

 

[DHK]

DHK said: ↑
What about Hezekiah 3:2?
You have not demonstrated that any of the above verses give a command for Gentile believers of this NT dispensation should keep the Sabbath.
And you have not found "do not take the Lord's name in vain" in the NT - no not once.

It is only 'in SCRIPTURE" - the "Word of God" -- the OT ... but you feel free to delete what you find in scripture if it is not fully repeated in total in the NT

Such "fluff rules" as that - are the heart-and-sole of failed arguments.

Fluff?
Hebrews 1:1 God, having in the past spoken to the fathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 has at the end of these days spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds.

Fluff is what you call the teaching of Heb.1:1,2, that God teaches His truth in different ways through different individuals in different eras of time. He spoke to Moses through a burning bush but he has never spoken to you that way, and never will, will he? Your fluff is a failure to understand Biblical truth and teaching.

It is not needed in the NT (and yet remains binding) because of the RULE James sites - in James 2. the rule of "HE who SAID"

James 2
9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

The law of liberty! You are stuck under the law of bondage.

Consider:
Galatians 4:3 So we also, when we were children, were held in bondage under the elemental principles of the world.
4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent out his Son, born to a woman, born under the law,
5 that he might redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of children.

You are as a child held in bondage to the law.
I have redemption through Jesus Christ and will never be in bondage to that law again.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

IT IS WRITTEN: "THE LAW : _IS_ : FOR THE TRANSGRESSOR" ---not because there is no Law. The Law is not for the keeper because the only "Keeper of the Law", is God's Word-of-Law Himself, the "One (who) is The Law-Giver" as well.
If no one disputed the Law, then, one might have assumed the Law no longer has authority or power or no longer, "IS".

The guiltier one is before the Law as judge (Just watch!), the more will he dispute the validity and authority of the Law.