History of Calvin

[David Lamb]

If Rome is apostasized usurpation, those who came from her have the same authority problem. Usurped authority is no authority at all. If the holy see is the authorized version, then all others have usurped her without authority. She has delegated to no one.

This presents a bit of a dilemma in terms of: "by whose authority do you do these things?.

Peace,

Bro. James

Are you saying what I think you are saying? That someone who comes out of an apostate organisation must themselves remain apostate?

If so, does that mean that in your view, when an unsaved person is converted, and comes out from his/her former apostate grouping to join a bible-beliving church, that person is still apostate because before conversion, he or she was a member of an apostate group?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Are you saying what I think you are saying? That someone who comes out of an apostate organisation must themselves remain apostate?

If so, does that mean that in your view, when an unsaved person is converted, and comes out from his/her former apostate grouping to join a bible-beliving church, that person is still apostate because before conversion, he or she was a member of an apostate group?

He cant mean that Dave, else wise he would be setting himself up as an "Premier Elitist" & we know from the brothers prior testimony that he also comes from apostate churches so he cant throw stones. However I would like the Brother to clarify himself once & for all. Its getting quite tedious to tell the truth.

 

[billwald]

Judges 21:25 (New International Version, ©2011)

25 In those days Israel had no king; everyone did as they saw fit.

Judges 21:25 (King James Version)

25In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes.

By whose authority do baptists do whatever they do? If Baptists read and interpret the Bible for themselves . . . isn't this what the people described in Judges did?

 

[Rippon]

The author is Herman J.Selderhuis. His book is:John Calvin : A Pilgrim's Life.

Mr.Selderhuis speaks of the fact that people from all over Europe "came to Geneva because of Calvin... The notion that Geneva must have been a terrible place to live during Calvin's lifetime does not fit at all with the fact that thousands took refuge there and were more than glad to stay." (p.216,217)

 

[Rippon]

Mr.Selderhuis mentions that:"The church [at Geneva --Rip] had finally gained the right of discipline,and,as the numbers reveal,it readily made use of it. In the first year after the rebellion of 1555 there were 80 cases,in the following year 160,and each of the years from1557 to 1561 there was an average of 240. In 1559,there were even 300 excommunications. These numbers are impressive for a population of some 20,000." (215,216)

"A meeting of the Council of the Sixty and of the Two Hundred was held on January 24,1555,in order to discuss what should be done next. Calvin of course had a pretty good idea. Speaking on behalf of the consistory,he made it clear to the politicians that the Scriptures gave the right of excommunication and readmission to the church. To everyone's surprise the council agreed. It was decided that the church should simply be allowed to do its work,and thus Calvin wrote to Bullinger that 'after a long struggle,we have finally had the right to excommunication conferred upon us.' " (208)

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Mr.Selderhuis speaks of the fact that people from all over Europe "came to Geneva because of Calvin... The notion that Geneva must have been a terrible place to live during Calvin's lifetime does not fit at all with the fact that thousands took refuge there and were more than glad to stay." (p.216,217)

Quite the reverse.....Ive read that it(Geneva) was almost a veritable heaven .... & NO SWEARING. Webdog would have been at home there!:thumbs:

 

[glfredrick]

Judges 21:25 (New International Version, ©2011)

25 In those days Israel had no king; everyone did as they saw fit.

Judges 21:25 (King James Version)

25In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes.

By whose authority do baptists do whatever they do? If Baptists read and interpret the Bible for themselves . . . isn't this what the people described in Judges did?

I'm probably going to regret responding to one of your posts, but Baptists do indeed have a King. His name is Jesus. :wavey:

 

[glfredrick]

Quite the reverse.....Ive read that it(Geneva) was almost a veritable heaven .... & NO SWEARING. Webdog would have been at home there!:thumbs:

Geneva is yet the international city of peace. It is from that vantage point that we sit down and negotiate peace treaties, have in place international agreements as to the acts of war, etc.

Why not Istanbul, Baghdad, Rome, etc.? Perhaps Calvin did have an influence that extends even 500 years into the future... :thumbsup:

 

[Crabtownboy]

Geneva is yet the international city of peace. It is from that vantage point that we sit down and negotiate peace treaties, have in place international agreements as to the acts of war, etc.

Why not Istanbul, Baghdad, Rome, etc.? Perhaps Calvin did have an influence that extends even 500 years into the future... :thumbsup:

I do not believe Calvin can be credited with Switzerland being neutral. After the disastrous battle of Marignano in 1515, where it was Swiss mercenaries killing Swiss mercenaries Switzerland began a policy of staying out of international arguments, that is being neutral. The only exception to this was when Napoleon conquered Switzerland and forced Swiss solders into his Army.

Countries, like the US, Russia, England, France, etc. need a Switzerland so they can meet on neutral grounds. This has nothing to do with Calvin, IMHO.


In regards to Geneva being a paradise ... I do not believe this was very true from our modern view. I am sure people were drawn to hear Calvin and many traveled for that reason. Also, I doubt seriously there was any really nice place to live in those days. From my readings of the day-to-day governance of Geneva during the Calvin era ... well I would not have wanted to live there ... and I am not sure where I would have wanted to live in those days. Maybe in a very remote mountain village away from well known preachers, theologians, priests and self-righteous religious folk.

 

[billwald]

Agree! The thieves need a safe place to store the booty. The religion of Switzerland is money.

 

[billwald]

>but Baptists do indeed have a King. His name is Jesus.

Same as the other 149 Christian denominations?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Agree! The thieves need a safe place to store the booty. The religion of Switzerland is money.

Ahhh, have you been there Bill or is this only your opinion?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Commentary of Geneva from Valetin Andreae, A Lutheran minister in 1610:

"While I was at Geneva, I noted something of a great moment which I will remember with nostalgia till the end of my days. Not only does this city enjoy a truly free political constitution; it has besides, as its particular ornament and means of discipline, the guidance of social life. All cursing & swearing, gambling, luxury, strife, hatred, fraud, etc., are forbidden, while greater sins are hardly ever heard of. What a glorious ornament of the Christian religions such a purity of morals! We must lament with tears that it is wanting with us (Germans) and almost totally neglected. If it were not for the differences of religion, I would have been chained to Geneva forever.

 

[Bro. James]

What are you continuing to talk about? You have been corrected several times about this stuff but you insist in stating nonsense.

Calvin and other Reformers of the 16th century came out of the Roman Catholic Church. They were against it -- hence the name P-R-O-T-E-S-T-A-N-T-S.

Other people throughout Church history have left the RCC.

Calvin left the RCC 30 years before he died. Please don't get confused.

This is about authority and usurped authority. The authority vested by Jesus in Mt. 16 and 28 was not posted on the doors of the Jerusalem Temple nor Caesar's palace.

While there are other names, true Baptists have not come out of the Protestant Reformation--never having been part of Rome. That is a wonderful part of the Baptist Heritage.

Again, if Rome had no authority, those who split have no authority. Ex nihil, nihil fit.

Then there is Joseph Smith Jr, claiming to have authority restored directly from Jesus.

What is in your wallet?

Peace,

Bro. James

 

[Bro. James]

Are you saying what I think you are saying? That someone who comes out of an apostate organisation must themselves remain apostate?

If so, does that mean that in your view, when an unsaved person is converted, and comes out from his/her former apostate grouping to join a bible-beliving church, that person is still apostate because before conversion, he or she was a member of an apostate group?

When one is born again, all things become new, former things are passed away--a new creature in Christ.

The Lord knows them that are His.

We have just gone through a long period of hyper-evangelism. Pray the prayer, repeat after me--now you are saved. Rank and file denominations are filled with the unregenerated--including in high places.

Being saved does not put one in a church. Joining a church does not make one saved. One could join every church in the world and still be lost. Church is something joined--prerequisites: salvation and scriptural baptism. This is why the "ana-baptists" got is so much trouble with the religious powers that be--not just the holy see. The ana's were very sticklish about scriptural authority--many perished, refusing to recant.

Peace,

Bro. James

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

This is about authority and usurped authority. The authority vested by Jesus in Mt. 16 and 28 was not posted on the doors of the Jerusalem Temple nor Caesar's palace.

While there are other names, true Baptists have not come out of the Protestant Reformation--never having been part of Rome. That is a wonderful part of the Baptist Heritage.

Again, if Rome had no authority, those who split have no authority. Ex nihil, nihil fit.

Then there is Joseph Smith Jr, claiming to have authority restored directly from Jesus.

What is in your wallet?

Peace,

Bro. James

you have to forgive my Brother Rippon as he gets a little tense after repeatedly going over & over & over & over the same piece or real estate. I however can go over it AGAIN if I feel your struggling to make your point clear....so tell me if I'm wrong, what I think you saying is your a Landmarker & you get off on the purity of being a Landmarker. Think you also indicated you have some ancestors that are Cornish so you've put it together that because you come from a people who were in the backwaters (or should I say in the hills of Western Briton) some how you feel yourself kin to the ancient Britons who were Baptistic so you think your related, right. So by going through this tiring exercise this validates you as both being a part of the original Christians & gratifies your ego. You feel these people in some way are somehow better than people who broke away from the RC's, correct? Is that whats in you wallet?

 

[Bro. James]

Weak arguments produce strong words. The Truth is the Truth whether we believe it or not.

There seems to be a lot of rhetoric about ancestry--mostly physical. The religious persuasion of our great, great, great, great grandfathers is relevent only as it conforms to "the Faith, once for all delivered to the Saints". The mystery of iniquity was at work when the scripture was delivered.

Sorry, this thread has departed the original intent: All hail Jon Chauvin week.
Obviously, I have a problem with exalting any of us depraved human beings.

Poll: Yes, No: Were True Baptists ever part of Rome or the schisms therefrom, i.e. the Protestant Reformation?

Peace,

Bro. James

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Weak arguments produce strong words. The Truth is the Truth whether we believe it or not.

There seems to be a lot of rhetoric about ancestry--mostly physical. The religious persuasion of our great, great, great, great grandfathers is relevent only as it conforms to "the Faith, once for all delivered to the Saints". The mystery of iniquity was at work when the scripture was delivered.

Sorry, this thread has departed the original intent: All hail Jon Chauvin week.
Obviously, I have a problem with exalting any of us depraved human beings.

Poll: Yes, No: Were True Baptists ever part of Rome or the schisms therefrom, i.e. the Protestant Reformation?

Peace,

Bro. James

Ahhh, Thanks for that response. You have told me all I need to know.

Jesus Alone Saves--Praise God

 

[TCassidy]

Weak arguments produce strong words. The Truth is the Truth whether we believe it or not.

I could not agree more. (And one of the reasons I put rippon on "ignore" ages ago! )

There seems to be a lot of rhetoric about ancestry--mostly physical. The religious persuasion of our great, great, great, great grandfathers is relevent only as it conforms to "the Faith, once for all delivered to the Saints". The mystery of iniquity was at work when the scripture was delivered.

My spiritual as well as physical heritage traces back through those who were persecuted, both before and after the so-called Reformation. I too have been accused of being a "Landmarker" usually by those who don't have a clue as to what the term really means. My great, great, great, great grandfather a godly Huguenot, fled France in the early 18th century for America, and settled in the wild and wooly west, Ohio! There is no doubt as to the Protestant identity of Huguenots as they probably originated in Calvin's Geneva, and the name Huguenot probably stems from the early leader in Geneva, Besancon Hugues. However, the other side of my family descends from even older believers not associated with the Church of Rome. Clear back to the 8th century. What most on this forum seem incapable of understanding is that "Baptist" is not a denominational name but rather a doctrinal identity. There were true believers all down through the ages of history, largely hidden in out of the way places to avoid the persecution of the Church of Rome. Although I do not believe in a chain-link succession I do believe there has been a spiritual kinship of those believers down through the ages as asserted by William Kiffin (1616-1701).

As to the "universal church" theory: Although I think this argument is more one of semantics than theology I still have to ask, do the "universal church" defenders have two different definitions of the word "church?" I believe a church is an organized assembly of baptized believers. Let's apply that definition to the "universal church."

Is it organized? With Pastors, deacons, and a membership list?
Where does it presently assemble?
Are all members scripturally baptized by immersion upon credible profession of faith?
Are all believers?

It seems to me that only the last question could honestly be answered in the affirmative.

In my opinion the better term for all believers collectively would be "the Family of God" (Ephisians 3:14-15) or "the Kingdom of God on Earth" (many, many references). This prevents having to have two contradictory definitions of the word "church."

Poll: Yes, No: Were True Baptists ever part of Rome or the schisms therefrom, i.e. the Protestant Reformation?

Yes, and no. There is no doubt that some British Baptists, of the Particular Baptist persuasion, are Protestants in the loose sense of the word. I say "loose" due to the fact that, technically, there are only 3 true Protestant churches rising from the Reformation, The Reformed Church (Presbyterian), The Lutheran Church, and the Anglican Communion (Church of England and Episcopal Churches). The next generation of groups such as Methodist, which broke away from the Anglican Communion, the Bible Church movement which, largely broke away from the Presbyterians, and others, are not technically Protestant as they were never part of, nor protested from within, the corruption of the Church of Rome.

As with all groups, there is much diversity under the name Baptist. And I would be the last one to suggest that all who fly the Baptist banner are theologically correct or even regenerate. Just as I could not claim that all who flew the banner of Novatian, Donatist, Monatist, Turtillianist, Petrobussian, etc. were regenerate or practiced scriptural baptism. In all probability most were/did not, but again, within those ranks it is more than just likely that "the faith once delivered" existed just as that same faith still exists in the great cacophony of present day Baptists.

I will close with an aside to Earth, Wind & Fire. You said,

You have told me all I need to know.

May I suggest that is not all you need to know to understand Brother James' position? Why not discuss the particulars with him? You may be able to find a consensus.

As for nomenclature, I am not a Calvinist. I am a Particular Baptist. I accept all 5 points of TULIP as being true and scriptural. I have two different translations of Calvin's Commentaries. I agree with most, but strongly disagree with some. And I agree, we should respect the man for his achievements without elevating him above that which is proper. The same can be true of many men, including some from the Church of Rome. Girolamo Savonarola, prior to the Reformation, preached against the corruption of the Roman Clergy including Cardinal Rodrigo Borgia, who became Pope Alexander VI, who excommunicated him and had him put to death. Was he a saved man? Was he a Protestant? We don't know. Just as with so many others in our history, we rely, for the most part, on the opinions of their opposition as most of their own writings were burned with their martyred bodies. Being too dogmatic about history can be very dangerous, especially when we don't know as much as we would like to think we do.

 

[glfredrick]

Poll: Yes, No: Were True Baptists ever part of Rome or the schisms therefrom, i.e. the Protestant Reformation?

Peace,

Bro. James

Neither. Baptists came later.

We share common roots as do ALL members of ALL churches.