History of Dispensational Theology and Israel

[Humblesmith]

Well, maybe if I keep repeating the clear language, maybe it will help. I don't know how to make it any more plain.

"the individual Jew is now divinely reckoned to be as much in need of salvation as the individual Gentile (Rom. 3:9). "
(Chafer, Vol. 3, Page 105.)

"it is also as clearly stated that no blood could ever avail for any remission of sin other than the blood of Christ."
(Chafer, Vol. 3, Page 107.)

"God is righteously free to act in behalf of sinners only on the ground of the fact that the Lamb of God has taken away their sins."
(Chafer, Vol. 3, Page 108.)


". . .Israel’s regathering, repentance, "
(Chafer, Vol. 4, Page 321-322.)

Again, and again, the only conclusion from these quotes is that dispensationalism teaches salvation by grace through faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ. Israel must repent and believe in Jesus just as gentiles. This was taught to at least 20,000 dispensational pastors over the last 70 years.

So far, I've seen no direct quotes from any popular dispenationalist that says any different. I've seen non-dispensationalists giving accusations, but NOT A WORD of contradiction from a noted dispensationalist.

If you believe otherwise, then give me a primary source quote from a dispensational theology that says Israel is saved by some other means other than faith in Christ. I've found none.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by LadyEagle:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />The logical outcome of the argument that God has two separate peoples is that there are two ways of salvation.

Why do you say that, Old Reg? The OT saints were saved by looking forward to the cross (starting in the Garden of Eden with the first sacrifice for atonement). NT saints are saved by looking back at the cross where the sacrifice for atonement was completed. I don't see how those are two separate ways of salvation. Can you explain? </font>[/QUOTE]I don't claim that God has two different people. You do! If he does then you tell me how they are saved the same way.

The fact is there is only one way of Salvation, Jesus Christ. God has only one people, the Church, the Body and Bride of Jesus Christ.

 

[LadyEagle]

If he does then you tell me how they are saved the same way.

I just did, Old Reg. What part of my post don't you understand???

God has only one people, the Church, the Body and Bride of Jesus Christ.

You're saying the OT saints are part of the Bride of Christ? They are saved, but not part of the Bride, Old Reg.

 

[shannonL]

I went to a dispensational school. I read from a Charles Ryrie Study Bible. I do not believe nor was I ever taught, trained or indoctrinated to believe that there is particular salvation for jews and a different way for gentiles.
There have been hyper-dispensationalists through the years who have held this view. I know this because it was taught to me in Bible college. We were warned of that false teaching.
All through the O.T. you see God's promise to Abraham being fullfilled. God promised him 3 things: Land,seed and blessing. Let us just take the land promise. If that is not literal then why are the jews and palestinians trying to kill each other over whose land it is? Tell a Jew on the Gaza strip that the promise to Abraham to have land is not literal. He might just fill your backside with lead.

Gen:15:6- And He (Abram) believed in the Lord;and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Rom: 4:3-For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Rom.:4:5 - But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

O.T or N.T Israelite or gentile, church age or otherwise all people are saved by grace through faith.

O.T. saints looked ahead to the cross. They trusted God by faith.

N.T. saints looked back to the cross. They have trusted Christ as Savior by grace through faith.

That is how I see it and I would consider myself a dispensationalist. Maybe not all 7 dispensations but there is definitly a difference in the promises given to physical Israel and the Church. But to me as I see it all people of every age or dispensation are saved by faith.

 

[Humblesmith]

Amen, Shannon.

Until I see an original source quote from a widely-accepted dispensationalist that says otherwise, then I'm going to conclude that this whole idea of dispensationalism teaching two salvations is either an honest misunderstanding by those that don't know dispensationalism, or an intentional straw man argument from those who don't want to know what it actually teaches.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by LadyEagle:

You're saying the OT saints are part of the Bride of Christ? They are saved, but not part of the Bride, Old Reg.

Can you prove that by Scripture?

 

[OldRegular]

Copied from another related thread:

Ephesians 2:11-22
11. Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12. That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13. But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15. Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16. And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17. And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20. And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21. In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22. In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

1. In this passage we are told that Gentiles were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel.
Who is included in the commonwealth of Israel? They are obviously the true believers in Israel.

2. Through Jesus Christ Gentiles are made nigh by the blood of Christ who has made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us and reconciled both unto God in one body by the cross.

Now did he make Gentile Believers one with the nation Israel. Obviously not, thus the above rationale for the commonwealth of Israel. He made Gentile believers one with the believing remnant in Israel that always existed under the old covenant.

3. Furthermore we are told that Gentiles are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God.

Now who are the Saints in the above passage. Again they are the believing remnant of the Old Testament, Spiritual Israel.

4. We are now told that believing Gentiles and believing Israel are the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone.

As shown in verses 21, 22 the household of God is the Church. That Church is built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets with Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone. Who are the prophets? They are the prophets of the Old Testament who prophesied of the coming Messiah and His sacrificial death for His Bride, the Church, as clearly shown by the Apostle Paul in Acts 20:28

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by OldRegular:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by LadyEagle:

You're saying the OT saints are part of the Bride of Christ? They are saved, but not part of the Bride, Old Reg.

Can you prove that by Scripture? </font>

Do you have to "literally die" to be saved, NO, but can you explain "WHY" the trib saints are give a choice to worship the "image" or Jesus, but if they chose Jesus, they "LITERALLY DIE"?? (be killed)

Can you explain "WHY" the gates of hell "CAN NOT" prevail against the church saints, but they do "prevail" against Saints during the Trib??

Understanding "WHAT" happens, doesn't reveal much, however understanding "WHY" it happens, explains "Everything".

Now go do your "homework".

 

[LadyEagle]

But Old Reg, no where in that passage you posted does it say the OT saints are part of the Bride.

Even John the Baptist said of himself in John 3:29 that he is a friend of the bridegroom.

John 3:[29] He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

 

[LadyEagle]

Originally posted by Humblesmith:
Amen, Shannon.

Until I see an original source quote from a widely-accepted dispensationalist that says otherwise, then I'm going to conclude that this whole idea of dispensationalism teaching two salvations is either an honest misunderstanding by those that don't know dispensationalism, or an intentional straw man argument from those who don't want to know what it actually teaches.

Agreed. Never heard of such a thing. It's a rumor, and a bad one at that.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by LadyEagle:
But Old Reg, no where in that passage you posted does it say the OT saints are part of the Bride.

It says that they are a part of the Church which is described in verses 20-22.

20. And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21. In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22. In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

The Church is the Bride of Jesus Christ.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by OldRegular:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by LadyEagle:

You're saying the OT saints are part of the Bride of Christ? They are saved, but not part of the Bride, Old Reg.

Can you prove that by Scripture? </font>

Do you have to "literally die" to be saved, NO, but can you explain "WHY" the trib saints are give a choice to worship the "image" or Jesus, but if they chose Jesus, they "LITERALLY DIE"?? (be killed)

</font>[/QUOTE]Where is there Scripture talking about the "trib saints"?

 

[LadyEagle]

Originally posted by OldRegular:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by LadyEagle:
But Old Reg, no where in that passage you posted does it say the OT saints are part of the Bride.

It says that they are a part of the Church which is described in verses 20-22.

20. And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21. In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22. In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

The Church is the Bride of Jesus Christ. </font>[/QUOTE]Well, that's fine, Old Reg. There are different schools of thought about that among Dispies - the part about whether the OT saints are part of the Bride or Guests at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. But still, that has nothing to do with two different routes of salvation that you have claimed we believe, which we don't.

At least I think you claimed it, but after 4 pages, my memory is dim.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by OldRegular:
Where is there Scripture talking about the "trib saints"?

Ya know, if it wasn't for "taking the lord's name in "PAIN", along about now I'd be saying "OH LORD"!!

Da 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn (AC) made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

Re 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Now compare that with this.

Mt 16:18 I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Jas 4:7 Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

Why does the "Devil" have to "FLEE" from Church saints, but not trib saints, and "WHY" does God allow that situation to exist??

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by LadyEagle:

But still, that has nothing to do with two different routes of salvation that you have claimed we believe, which we don't.

At least I think you claimed it, but after 4 pages, my memory is dim.

I never said you believed in two different routes of Salvation. I said that they were the logical outcome of the argument that God has two separate people.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by OldRegular:
Where is there Scripture talking about the "trib saints"?

Ya know, if it wasn't for "taking the lord's name in "PAIN", along about now I'd be saying "OH LORD"!!

Da 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn (AC) made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

Re 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Now compare that with this.

Mt 16:18 I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Jas 4:7 Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

Why does the "Devil" have to "FLEE" from Church saints, but not trib saints, and "WHY" does God allow that situation to exist?? </font>[/QUOTE]Nothing is said about "trib saints". You need to rightly divide the word of truth. Jesus Christ clearly taught that the Saints would undergo tribulation:

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Can I take it that you don't believe what my Lord and Savior taught?

 

[LadyEagle]

In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Tribulation of the saints has always existed. Early Christians were thrown to the lions and Fox's Book of Martyrs speaks of tribulation of the saints/church. However, the Great Tribulation is a separate issue.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by LadyEagle:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Tribulation of the saints has always existed. Early Christians were thrown to the lions and Fox's Book of Martyrs speaks of tribulation of the saints/church. However, the Great Tribulation is a separate issue.

</font>[/QUOTE]It is? Prove it by Scripture.

 

[LadyEagle]

Start a new thread and we will discuss the Great Tribulation which did not already happen in the First Century as you probably believe.

You already know all the Scriptures I planned on posting anyway, Old Reg. We might as well just agree to disagree, since that discussion isn't on the topic of the OP.

But, since the board will be shut down this weekend, that debate will probably have to wait until another day. Meanwhile, have a great weekend.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by LadyEagle:
Start a new thread and we will discuss the Great Tribulation which did not already happen in the First Century as you probably believe.

You already know all the Scriptures I planned on posting anyway, Old Reg. We might as well just agree to disagree, since that discussion isn't on the topic of the OP.

But, since the board will be shut down this weekend, that debate will probably have to wait until another day. Meanwhile, have a great weekend.

Lady Eagle, i am not a preterist, partial or full.