history of the doctrine of the rapture

[postrib]

Originally posted by Steve K.:
...we COME BACK with him after the trib...

Note that at the rapture Jesus will come back "with" all his saints: "Even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him" (1 Thessalonians 4:14); "I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thessalonians 5:23), "to the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints" (1 Thessalonians 3:13).

I believe the purpose of the rapture is to gather the resurrected dead and the transformed living (1 Corinthians 15:51-52, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) all together in the sky with Jesus so that we can be judged (Psalms 50:4-5, Mark 13:27) and married (Revelation 19:7) in the clouds, before Armageddon.

This is why the wedding's consummation isn't announced until immediately before we descend with Christ at Armageddon (Revelation 19:7-14). I believe that after we've been judged and married in the clouds, we'll all get on our white horses, the clouds will part, "heaven" will be "opened" (Revelation 19:11), we'll all descend from the clouds with Jesus (Revelation 19:11-14), Jesus will smite the nations (Revelation 19:15) gathered at Armageddon (Revelation 16:14-16) to fight him (Revelation 19:19), he will defeat them completely (Revelation 19:20) and then land on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:3-4), after which we will have the supper (Revelation 19:9, 17; Isaiah 25:5-9).

http://www.geocities.com/postrib

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by Steve K.:
Brian what are you having so much trouble understanding?

Steve, I'm not trying to be antagonistic. I was just asking for clarification. I apologize if this has made you upset for some reason.

 

[Steve K.]

I just don't see what is so hard to understand.It's like the debate over new versions."It's too hard to understand" You seem so upset over the KING JAMES issue on every thread that you participate in.

 

[Steve K.]

Postrib I think the problem may be in which rapture you are talking about. There are at least three you know.I am leaving in the one before the trib.I am not appointed unto wrath.Hope you'll be there too.

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by Steve K.:
I just don't see what is so hard to understand.It's like the debate over new versions."It's too hard to understand" You seem so upset over the KING JAMES issue on every thread that you participate in.

Alright Steve, I'll stop asking you to clarify, it appears you don't want to. I assure you I am not upset now, and rarely get upset. Often, in a forum like this where all people can see are typed words, the attitude intended, because things like facial expressions, tone of voice, etc, do not carry across into this medium. If my posts have come across that way in the slightest, I again apologize, for that is not the attitude I am trying to convey. Don't confuse disagreement with hostility.

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by Steve K.:
Postrib I think the problem may be in which rapture you are talking about. There are at least three you know.

This is a highly unusual viewpoint! Would you be interested in starting a new thread explaining it in a little more detail?

 

[Steve K.]

I'm not confused. It seems you have trouble with words or you are always looking for hidden intent. Is that why you don't like the KING JAMES BIBLE? Have a nice day.

 

[Steve K.]

Originally posted by BrianT:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Steve K.:
Postrib I think the problem may be in which rapture you are talking about. There are at least three you know.

This is a highly unusual viewpoint! Would you be interested in starting a new thread explaining it in a little more detail?</font>[/QUOTE]I would love TOO!!!! When shall we start?

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by Steve K.:
I'm not confused. It seems you have trouble with words or you are always looking for hidden intent. Is that why you don't like the KING JAMES BIBLE? Have a nice day.

Honestly, I'm not sure what you're talking about. I love the KJV. Even knowing its translators were not Bapist, let alone premillennial.

I would love TOO!!!! When shall we start?

Go ahead, start a thread (hey, that rhymes!)

 

[Steve K.]

Actually Brian the topic here is the rapture. Why should we leave?

 

[Steve K.]

*nothing gained by duplicating another's post*

[ January 13, 2003, 03:13 PM: Message edited by: Jim1999 ]

 

[postrib]

Originally posted by Steve K.:
...I am not appointed unto wrath...

Note that we Christians can be in the tribulation (Revelation 6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, 20:4) without being appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), for during the tribulation nobody in heaven says God's wrath "is come" until near the end of the tribulation, after the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15, 18), in the 7 vials of God's wrath (Revelation 15:1; Revelation 16), and none of the 7 vials are poured out on those of us who have obtained salvation; I believe we are even blessed at the 6th vial (Revelation 16:15), that we might endure to the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (Daniel 12:11-12), which is the day I believe Jesus will come back (Revelation 19).

I think it's important to make this distinction because many people -- including many Christians -- are going to be blaming God for everything bad that happens to them in the tribulation; they're going to be saying that God is the one causing all of their suffering, when in reality it will be Satan, evil men, and natural disasters that are causing it.

Satan is going to try to use the suffering of the tribulation to turn people -- even us Christians -- away from God, to get us to believe that God is really a cruel and unjust tyrant who only wants mankind to suffer and be tortured, while Satan is the one trying to help us. We need to be able to say, no, this suffering is not from God, but from evil and natural sources, just as we Christians have always had to suffer in wars, famines, plagues, persecutions, and natural disasters throughout history, from the beginning of the church down until this day.

In the pre-trib view, will we Christians who will be in the tribulation (Revelation 6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, 20:4) all be appointed to wrath? Aren't being appointed to wrath and obtaining salvation mutually exclusive? "God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

http://www.geocities.com/postrib

 

[Steve K.]

[ January 13, 2003, 03:07 PM: Message edited by: Jim1999 ]

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by Steve K.:
Actually Brian the topic here is the rapture. Why should we leave?

The topic here is the history of the pretrib view. I personally think if you wanted to explain your three-rapture view, a new thread would probably be better, that's all.

 

[Steve K.]

Postrib the reference you gave to Rev 6:11 is about martyrs that were killed for the word of God. See the verses prior to it.That is not referring to church age saints.

 

[Steve K.]

Originally posted by BrianT:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Steve K.:
Actually Brian the topic here is the rapture. Why should we leave?

The topic here is the history of the pretrib view. I personally think if you wanted to explain your three-rapture view, a new thread would probably be better, that's all.</font>[/QUOTE]Actually it is not my view it's God's. Directly from the scripture,the very words of God.

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by Steve K.:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BrianT:
]The topic here is the history of the pretrib view. I personally think if you wanted to explain your three-rapture view, a new thread would probably be better, that's all.

Actually it is not my view it's God's. Directly from the scripture,the very words of God.</font>[/QUOTE]I see. Nobody can safely disagree with the view then, eh? This should be interesting.

I've done quite a bit of study of the dual-rapture ("partial"-rapture) view, but I've never heard of anyone holding a tri-rapture view. While we're still in the "history" thread, I'll mention that I hope you'll also provide the history of the three-rapture view (when it was revealed (or unsealed, as SheEagle9/11 might put it), who from history believes/promoted it, etc.) Is this a view developed by you, or did you learn it from someone else?

 

[Steve K.]

Actually I learned it from the bible.The Holy Spirit bore witnes that it was true.Again at the risk of repeating myself. I believe the very words of God and get my teaching from there not history.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

If you are not sure about Rapture, how does it set started. You already hear argument between pretribbers, and posttribbers on the church history about Eschatology doctrine.

Pretribbers claim pretrib is the earliest teaching in the church history.

Posttribbers saying that Early Church was taught posttrib coming.

Which one is correct?

I left pretrib 10 years ago, because pretrib does not fit in the Bible. I saw posttrib in the Bible very clear.

I heard about the origin 1830 of pretribulation over 10 years ago. I was not covince on it.

I have been researching on the informations if 1830 original pretribulation was serious true enough.

I have been researched through them for over 10 years. I found serious enough that pretrib was started in 1830.

I went to Rochester, NY during deaf ministry's 25th anniversary 3 years ago. I visited library at Cologate Divinty School. Probaby some of you already heard about that.

That library have COUNTLESS of old books from 17th to 19th Century!! There are countless of old books on two or three floors!!

I went to the library for over three to four hours for doing research on them.

I remind of that college, when last time I visited there 13 years ago when I was a collegestudent [not at bible college). I saw so countless old books on several floors. I saw them while I was a pretribber that time.

I remind of that college. I really want to visit that library so bad. Finally, I find right time to visit there.

I visited there three years ago. I do researching in the library on Eschatology for about 4 hours. I could have spend more time staying at the library for countless hours, but not enough time for me, and I stay in Rochester, NY for only 4 days. So, I redeemed the time to go there.

It was so worth time for me to read these books in 4 hours.

Before I read these books at the library. I read a book talking about the history of the pretribulation conference. It was started in 1878 at Nigara Bible Conference.

I remind what the book saying so.

So, I looked at the books at the library with printed what year the books were written, before I read these.

Very interesting, there are about over 90% of these books were written BEFORE year 1880, taught posttrib coming. I looked in the commenatories of Matthew 24 and 25. 90% of books were written before year 1880, in Matthew 24, these saying that it is apply to the Church!

Also, interesting, I looked at these books were written AFTER year 1880, there are about over 90% of these books are pretrib! Over 90% of these books of commentary of Matthew 24, they saying it is for Israel.

That is world up-down side!! I means it is 90 degree angle turn around very quickly around year 1880's.

Obivously, 1878 Nigara Bible Conference is the evidence that pretribulaiton was born in America in year during 1880's.

In the 19th Century, nearly all churches in America were taught posttrib. Till John Nelson Darby visited America 6 times since 1840's to 1870. He tried to spread his new doctrine. Many churches in Amewrica started to adopted his teaching.

That's why today, pretribulation in America is very popular.

I prefer follow the Bible than men's teaching of their philosophy.

Bible teaches on posttrib coming is very clear than pretrib.

There is no support from the Bible on pretrib.

Pretribulation is full of theory, and it is only 170 years old.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[Steve K.]

Look at the reference I gave in Matt.Dump the history and use the bible. What percent were right in Noah's day? What percent were right in Sodom? What percent of the spies were right?