Ladd writes from a historic dispensational perspective: premill and posttrib, the view of the early church. You should pick up a copy of this book "The Blessed Hope" if you can, it is really quite good even if you are not posttrib - the discussion is engaging and the exegesis is sound.
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history of the doctrine of the rapture
- Thread starter Ps104_33
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DeafPosttrib
New Member
Ed,
I ask you a question, please explain to me "daily sacrifice shall be taken away"- what it is talking about?
Why there is 45 days between 1290 days and 1335 days?
Interesting, there is no other refer verse saying 1335 days anywhere in the Bible. 1335 days find only ONE verse in Dan. 12:11.
Also, interesting, there is no other refer verse in the Bible saying 1290 days. 1290 days find only ONE verse - Dan. 12:11.
Can you explain to us, why there is 45 days?
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
I ask you a question, please explain to me "daily sacrifice shall be taken away"- what it is talking about?
Why there is 45 days between 1290 days and 1335 days?
Interesting, there is no other refer verse saying 1335 days anywhere in the Bible. 1335 days find only ONE verse in Dan. 12:11.
Also, interesting, there is no other refer verse in the Bible saying 1290 days. 1290 days find only ONE verse - Dan. 12:11.
Can you explain to us, why there is 45 days?
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
DeafPosttrib
New Member
George Ladd wrote on Historic Posttrib. Also, he is dispensationalist. I respect him very well. He making many good points on postribulation doctrine. I do have his book - "The Blessed Hope". It is very good book.
My point is, there were so many posttribbers through the centuries before pretribulation developed.
Posttribulation is very old doctrine. Actually, Christians do not label or called "Posttribulation" through the many centuries, because they all believe Jesus will come again at ONCE. None of them teach on split comings, or two phases of second advent for 18 centuries. It was not teach till 19th Century.
You yet not find one evidence when and how does posttribulation doctrine was developed. Because it is very old doctrine since Early Church.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
My point is, there were so many posttribbers through the centuries before pretribulation developed.
Posttribulation is very old doctrine. Actually, Christians do not label or called "Posttribulation" through the many centuries, because they all believe Jesus will come again at ONCE. None of them teach on split comings, or two phases of second advent for 18 centuries. It was not teach till 19th Century.
You yet not find one evidence when and how does posttribulation doctrine was developed. Because it is very old doctrine since Early Church.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
From one of the links Helen posted on page 1 of this thread:
Today 100% of Pentecostals, 98% of Plymouth Brethren, and 95% of Southern Baptists accept the doctrine of pre-tribulation rapture.
At least THE MAJORITY of His Bride is Listening for that Sweet Trumpet Sound. PTL!
A side note: Tribulation which worketh patience, tribulation that we as Christians may be going through and have undergone down through the ages (Fox's Book of Martyrs) and the tribulation Christians are presently undergoing today ( http://www.persecution.org ) is quite different from The Great Tribulation.
Once a person understands THAT difference....that's a start.
I don't understand how a TRUE dispy can be post-trib, either. Add that to just one more thing I've learned about different Baptists on this board.
Today 100% of Pentecostals, 98% of Plymouth Brethren, and 95% of Southern Baptists accept the doctrine of pre-tribulation rapture.
At least THE MAJORITY of His Bride is Listening for that Sweet Trumpet Sound. PTL!
A side note: Tribulation which worketh patience, tribulation that we as Christians may be going through and have undergone down through the ages (Fox's Book of Martyrs) and the tribulation Christians are presently undergoing today ( http://www.persecution.org ) is quite different from The Great Tribulation.
Once a person understands THAT difference....that's a start.
I don't understand how a TRUE dispy can be post-trib, either. Add that to just one more thing I've learned about different Baptists on this board.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
SheEasgle9/11: "A side note: Tribulation
which worketh patience, tribulation
that we as Christians may be going
through and have undergone down through
the ages (Fox's Book of Martyrs)
and the tribulation Christians are
presently undergoing today
( http://www.persecution.org ) is quite
different from The Great Tribulation."
Amen Sister SheEagle9/11 -- Preach it.
Further Jesus said:
Matthew 24:21-22 (KJV1769):
21 For then shall be great tribulation,
such as was not since the beginning
of the world to this time, no, nor
ever shall be.
22 And except those days should
be shortened, there should no flesh
be saved: but for the elect's sake
those days shall be shortened.
[ January 20, 2003, 09:35 PM: Message edited by: Ed Edwards ]
which worketh patience, tribulation
that we as Christians may be going
through and have undergone down through
the ages (Fox's Book of Martyrs)
and the tribulation Christians are
presently undergoing today
( http://www.persecution.org ) is quite
different from The Great Tribulation."
Amen Sister SheEagle9/11 -- Preach it.
Further Jesus said:
Matthew 24:21-22 (KJV1769):
21 For then shall be great tribulation,
such as was not since the beginning
of the world to this time, no, nor
ever shall be.
22 And except those days should
be shortened, there should no flesh
be saved: but for the elect's sake
those days shall be shortened.
[ January 20, 2003, 09:35 PM: Message edited by: Ed Edwards ]
I believe the Jewish temple will be rebuilt (Revelation 11:1-2), daily sacrifices will be reinstituted (Daniel 9:27, 11:31), a false Messiah will arise to rule Israel whom the Antichrist will "break" (Daniel 11:22, Ezekiel 21:25) and make a 7-year treaty with (Daniel 11:23; 9:26-27), in the midst of which 7 years the Antichrist will break the treaty (Daniel 9:27) and sit in the temple and proclaim himself God above all gods (Daniel 11:36; 2 Thessalonians 2:4; Revelation 13:6, 8), and so commit "the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet" (Matthew 24:15; Daniel 11:31, 36).
Note that the Bible doesn't refer to Jesus' sacrifice as a "continual sacrifice," nor can Jesus' sacrifice be the "daily sacrifice" referred to in Daniel 8:11-13, Daniel 11:31, and Daniel 12:11, for "[Jesus] needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself" (Hebrews 7:27).
Note that the Hebrew word for "daily" in Daniel 8:11-13, Daniel 11:31, and Daniel 12:11 is "tamiyd" (Strong's #8548), which is used consistently throughout the OT to refer to the daily temple sacrifice: "Two lambs of the first year day by day continually (tamiyd)" (Exodus 29:38); "Two lambs of the first year without spot day by day, for a continual (tamiyd) burnt offering" (Numbers 28:3); "The continual (tamiyd) burnt offering" (Numbers 29:11, 29:16, 29:19, 29:22, 29:25, 29:28, 29:31, 29:34, 29:38, 28:6, 28:10, 28:23, 28:24, 28:31); "They offered burnt offerings in the house of the LORD continually (tamiyd)" (2 Chronicles 24:14); "The continual (tamiyd) burnt offering" (Ezra 3:5); "The continual (tamiyd) burnt offering" (Nehemiah 10:33); "Thy sacrifices or thy burnt offerings, to have been continually (tamiyd) before me" (Psalm 50:8).
So I believe that the verses in Daniel refer to the same daily (tamiyd) temple sacrifice:
"By him the daily (tamiyd) sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down" (Daniel 8:11).
"And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily (tamiyd) sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate" (Daniel 11:31).
"And from the time that the daily (tamiyd) sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days" (Daniel 12:11-12).
From the time he commits the abomination of desolation (Matthew 24:15; Daniel 11:31, 36), I believe the Antichrist is given 1,260 days to rule and persecute believers (compare Revelation 13:5), after which I believe vials 1-5 (Revelation 16) will be poured out on his kingdom over a period of 30 days, during which time we don't see him persecuting believers. On day 1,290 (Daniel 12:11), I believe the 6th vial will be poured out preparing the way of the kings of the east (Revelation 16:12). It may then take about 45 days for the Antichrist and all the kings of the earth to gather all of their armies to Armageddon (Revelation 16:14). I believe Daniel 12:12 and Revelation 16:15 are the same blessing, so that we must wait until the 1,335th day for Christ to return to us, when he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:8).
http://www.geocities.com/postrib
[ January 20, 2003, 10:03 PM: Message edited by: postrib ]
I believe "a great multitude, which no man could number" of us Christians will be in the great tribulation (Revelation 7:9, 14) for the same reasons Christians have always gone through "much tribulation." "Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God" (Acts 14:22). Note that the Greek word for "much" in Acts 14:22 is translated 59 times in the New Testament as "great." "And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience" (Romans 5:3). "That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto. For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation" (1 Thessalonians 3:3-4).
During the coming great tribulation the Lord will allow the enemy to try some of us to the limit, just as the enemy tried Job to the limit, not because he had done anything wrong, but to show that his love for God wasn't based on his material wealth, his family, or his health, but on the simple fact that God was his creator and sustainer, and had shown him great kindness (Job 2:10). Job did not sin when faced with every trial a man can face. He remained loyal to God unto the end.
I believe we are to look to the patient suffering of Job as our example: "Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience. Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy" (James 5:10-11). We Christians will need such patience in the coming tribulation: "Here is the patience and the faith of the saints" (Revelation 13:10). "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12-13).
I believe Jesus said the tribulation will be cut short because we the elect will still be here: "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's (eklektos) sake those days shall be shortened" (Matthew 24:21-22).
I believe we in the church are the elect, and need to put on longsuffering: "Put on therefore, as the elect (eklektos) of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering" (Colossians 3:12).
Note that at the 2nd coming some of us elect will still be "alive and remain" (1 Thessalonians 4:15) on the earth: "And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect (eklektos) from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven" (Mark 13:27).
DeafPosttrib
New Member
Posttrib,
I used to believe Rev. 11:1-2 is the literal physical building of the temple in Jerusalem during Tribulation.
Now, I realized, it apply to us as Church. We are the temple of God - 1 Cor. 3:16-17; and 6:19-20.
Rev. 11:1-2 do not saying the temple of God will be rebuilt IN Jerusalem.
"the holy city"- most Christians interpreting it - Jerusalem in Israel. Holy city represents Bride - New Jerusalem. We are Bride in Rev. 20:9-10.
Gentiles shall persecute against the Christians for 42 months (3 1/2 years), not seven years.
Gentiles represent unbelievers or heathens.
Rev. 11:2 is the picture of the world will persecute against Christians for 3 1/2 years.
Most Christians believe two witnesses are Moses and Elijah. John does not saying who are the identify of the two witnesses. MOst Christians believe they are Moses and Elijah, because when Jesus went to the mountian with three disciples - John, Peter, and James. When Peter woke up from nap, he saw two men stood with Jesus. Peter identified them - Moses and Elijah. That is the reason, many Christians believe two witnesses are Moses and Elijah.
Also, most Christians believe Elijah will be the one of the two witnesses because of in Malachi 4:5 tells, Elijah must appear before the coming of the Lord.
While Peter saw Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus. The disciples told Jesus, why do the scribes that Elijah must first come? I believe they quote from Malachi 4:5.
Jesus told them, truly(honest) Elijah shall first come, and restore all things. Also, Jesus said, "But I say unto you, That Eliaj is come ALREADY , and they(scribes, also people) knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed..."
Jesus told them, Elijah ALREADY there, they didn't know he is Elijah. Then, next verse - the disciples understood that he(Jesus spake unto them of John the Baptist.
That story in Matt. 17:1-13.
Malachi 4:5 already fulfilled that Elijah is John the Baptist already appeared to preach the kingdom.
During Old Testament time, Elijah was took up in heaven alive. I believe Elijah is perfect man without sin while he was in heaven before Christ born.
When Mary's sister Elizabeth convinced(pregancy), I believe God sent Elijah from heaven to into Elizabeth's womb. Because John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit - Luke 1:41.
My question is, all people who born first time in mother's womb, all of them include us, were not filled with the Holy Spirit, because we are not saved in the first place. That mean we have to be born again to receive Holy Spirit.
I believe Elijah was send by God to Elizabeth's womb, when he was FILLED with the Holy Spirit in Luke 1:41.
I believe Elijah was in heaven while he is a perfect.
I believe there is only two records in the four gospels that two women received baby from the Holy Spirit - Jesus Christ and Elijah.
I believe Elijah came to earth to transform into John the Baptist to preach the kingdom of God.
Later, John the Baptist was arrested, then put in the jail. John doubted on Christ. Does, that mean, Elijah was not perfect on earth- he returned to earth into Elizabeth's womb?
My big question was, what IF suppose Satan tempted Jesus three times, could he fall into sin? He could! Because Jesus came to earth to become flesh same as us. But, Jesus is the TRULY son of God.
John the Baptist is not God. John the Baptist is man same as us.
I believe Elijah did sinned while in the prison. Then shortly later he was beheaded. He return back to heaven.
Sorry I am off the point on Revelation chapter 11. But, I am trying to explain on two witnesses what of my point is.
Now back to Rev. 11:3, it tells us, two witnesses shall be given to witnesses for 3 1/2 years.
Rev. 11:4 tells us, they are the olive trees, and the two candlesticks.
Didn't you know that we are part of the Olive tree - Romans 11:17, & 25?
Also, didn't you know that we are candlesticks of Rev. 1:20?
Revelation chapter 11 is the picture of the world persecute against the Church, while the church will witness the gospel to the world for 3 1/2 years.
You have to start with Revelation chapter 11 in context, then you will understand what the two witnesses present. Two witnesses represent the temple of God - Rev. 11:1-2. We are the temple of God - Church.
Later, I will post on Dan. 12:11-12 discuss more deeper.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
Posttrib/Amill
I used to believe Rev. 11:1-2 is the literal physical building of the temple in Jerusalem during Tribulation.
Now, I realized, it apply to us as Church. We are the temple of God - 1 Cor. 3:16-17; and 6:19-20.
Rev. 11:1-2 do not saying the temple of God will be rebuilt IN Jerusalem.
"the holy city"- most Christians interpreting it - Jerusalem in Israel. Holy city represents Bride - New Jerusalem. We are Bride in Rev. 20:9-10.
Gentiles shall persecute against the Christians for 42 months (3 1/2 years), not seven years.
Gentiles represent unbelievers or heathens.
Rev. 11:2 is the picture of the world will persecute against Christians for 3 1/2 years.
Most Christians believe two witnesses are Moses and Elijah. John does not saying who are the identify of the two witnesses. MOst Christians believe they are Moses and Elijah, because when Jesus went to the mountian with three disciples - John, Peter, and James. When Peter woke up from nap, he saw two men stood with Jesus. Peter identified them - Moses and Elijah. That is the reason, many Christians believe two witnesses are Moses and Elijah.
Also, most Christians believe Elijah will be the one of the two witnesses because of in Malachi 4:5 tells, Elijah must appear before the coming of the Lord.
While Peter saw Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus. The disciples told Jesus, why do the scribes that Elijah must first come? I believe they quote from Malachi 4:5.
Jesus told them, truly(honest) Elijah shall first come, and restore all things. Also, Jesus said, "But I say unto you, That Eliaj is come ALREADY , and they(scribes, also people) knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed..."
Jesus told them, Elijah ALREADY there, they didn't know he is Elijah. Then, next verse - the disciples understood that he(Jesus spake unto them of John the Baptist.
That story in Matt. 17:1-13.
Malachi 4:5 already fulfilled that Elijah is John the Baptist already appeared to preach the kingdom.
During Old Testament time, Elijah was took up in heaven alive. I believe Elijah is perfect man without sin while he was in heaven before Christ born.
When Mary's sister Elizabeth convinced(pregancy), I believe God sent Elijah from heaven to into Elizabeth's womb. Because John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit - Luke 1:41.
My question is, all people who born first time in mother's womb, all of them include us, were not filled with the Holy Spirit, because we are not saved in the first place. That mean we have to be born again to receive Holy Spirit.
I believe Elijah was send by God to Elizabeth's womb, when he was FILLED with the Holy Spirit in Luke 1:41.
I believe Elijah was in heaven while he is a perfect.
I believe there is only two records in the four gospels that two women received baby from the Holy Spirit - Jesus Christ and Elijah.
I believe Elijah came to earth to transform into John the Baptist to preach the kingdom of God.
Later, John the Baptist was arrested, then put in the jail. John doubted on Christ. Does, that mean, Elijah was not perfect on earth- he returned to earth into Elizabeth's womb?
My big question was, what IF suppose Satan tempted Jesus three times, could he fall into sin? He could! Because Jesus came to earth to become flesh same as us. But, Jesus is the TRULY son of God.
John the Baptist is not God. John the Baptist is man same as us.
I believe Elijah did sinned while in the prison. Then shortly later he was beheaded. He return back to heaven.
Sorry I am off the point on Revelation chapter 11. But, I am trying to explain on two witnesses what of my point is.
Now back to Rev. 11:3, it tells us, two witnesses shall be given to witnesses for 3 1/2 years.
Rev. 11:4 tells us, they are the olive trees, and the two candlesticks.
Didn't you know that we are part of the Olive tree - Romans 11:17, & 25?
Also, didn't you know that we are candlesticks of Rev. 1:20?
Revelation chapter 11 is the picture of the world persecute against the Church, while the church will witness the gospel to the world for 3 1/2 years.
You have to start with Revelation chapter 11 in context, then you will understand what the two witnesses present. Two witnesses represent the temple of God - Rev. 11:1-2. We are the temple of God - Church.
Later, I will post on Dan. 12:11-12 discuss more deeper.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
Posttrib/Amill
Posttrib, all I have time to post right now in response to your lengthy post is....
Huh?
Elijah being reincarnated into John the Baptist is a REEEEAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLLLL stretch!
PS: John the Baptist & John the Apostle are not the same person - but are two different people named John.
John the Baptist was beheaded.
The Apostle John was imprisoned on the Isle of Patmos.
The rebuilding of Solomon's Temple is literal. The facts: All the instruments and garments are all ready to be placed in the Temple when it happens. They have bred a "kosher" red heiffer for burning of sacrifices. See this link:
http://www.templeinstitute.org/current-events/RedHeifer/
Also:
http://www.templemount.org
for more details.
Huh?
Elijah being reincarnated into John the Baptist is a REEEEAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLLLL stretch!
PS: John the Baptist & John the Apostle are not the same person - but are two different people named John.
John the Baptist was beheaded.
The Apostle John was imprisoned on the Isle of Patmos.
The rebuilding of Solomon's Temple is literal. The facts: All the instruments and garments are all ready to be placed in the Temple when it happens. They have bred a "kosher" red heiffer for burning of sacrifices. See this link:
http://www.templeinstitute.org/current-events/RedHeifer/
Also:
http://www.templemount.org
for more details.
DeafPosttrib
New Member
back!You are correct, John the Baptist, and ohn, he Beloved are different persons. Yes, that correct.
I strongly believe John the Baptist is Elijah. Why? Because John the Baptist were beheaded in Matt 14:10.
Then, about seven days later, Jesus and three isciples went up to mountians. Moses and Elijah et Jesus on the moutnian. That is about 7 days later AFTER John the Baptist beheaded.- Matt 17:1-13.
I believe John the Baptist's soul went to heaven after he was beheaded, is Elijah. Then, Elijah came back to earth third time.
Jesus told three disciples - Matt 17:12 that they do not realized that Elijah already come to earth to preach the kingdom. Then next verse 13, the disciples wer understood, that Elijah is John the Baptist.
Malachi 4:5 already fulfilled that Elijah already come to earth tp preach the kingdom, and baptized people in the water.
The two witnesses of Revelation chapter 11- John does not saying they are Moses and Elijah.
These are the figurative and symbol. Two witnesses are represent Christians - Olive Tree and Candlestick.
Christians shall witness the gospel for 42 months. Many Christians shall be killed by persecution under the Antichrist.
Then, Christians shall be resurrection and caught up at the seventh trumpet is the resurrection/rapture at the end of Great Tribulaiton.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
Posttrib/Amill
I strongly believe John the Baptist is Elijah. Why? Because John the Baptist were beheaded in Matt 14:10.
Then, about seven days later, Jesus and three isciples went up to mountians. Moses and Elijah et Jesus on the moutnian. That is about 7 days later AFTER John the Baptist beheaded.- Matt 17:1-13.
I believe John the Baptist's soul went to heaven after he was beheaded, is Elijah. Then, Elijah came back to earth third time.
Jesus told three disciples - Matt 17:12 that they do not realized that Elijah already come to earth to preach the kingdom. Then next verse 13, the disciples wer understood, that Elijah is John the Baptist.
Malachi 4:5 already fulfilled that Elijah already come to earth tp preach the kingdom, and baptized people in the water.
The two witnesses of Revelation chapter 11- John does not saying they are Moses and Elijah.
These are the figurative and symbol. Two witnesses are represent Christians - Olive Tree and Candlestick.
Christians shall witness the gospel for 42 months. Many Christians shall be killed by persecution under the Antichrist.
Then, Christians shall be resurrection and caught up at the seventh trumpet is the resurrection/rapture at the end of Great Tribulaiton.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
Posttrib/Amill
DeafPosttrib
New Member
back!You are correct, John the Baptist, and ohn, he Beloved are different persons. Yes, that correct.
I strongly believe John the Baptist is Elijah. Why? Because John the Baptist were beheaded in Matt 14:10.
Then, about seven days later, Jesus and three isciples went up to mountians. Moses and Elijah et Jesus on the moutnian. That is about 7 days later AFTER John the Baptist beheaded.- Matt 17:1-13.
I believe John the Baptist's soul went to heaven after he was beheaded, is Elijah. Then, Elijah came back to earth third time.
Jesus told three disciples - Matt 17:12 that they do not realized that Elijah already come to earth to preach the kingdom. Then next verse 13, the disciples wer understood, that Elijah is John the Baptist.
Malachi 4:5 already fulfilled that Elijah already come to earth tp preach the kingdom, and baptized people in the water.
The two witnesses of Revelation chapter 11- John does not saying they are Moses and Elijah.
These are the figurative and symbol. Two witnesses are represent Christians - Olive Tree and Candlestick.
Christians shall witness the gospel for 42 months. Many Christians shall be killed by persecution under the Antichrist.
Then, Christians shall be resurrection and caught up at the seventh trumpet is the resurrection/rapture at the end of Great Tribulaiton.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
Posttrib/Amill
I strongly believe John the Baptist is Elijah. Why? Because John the Baptist were beheaded in Matt 14:10.
Then, about seven days later, Jesus and three isciples went up to mountians. Moses and Elijah et Jesus on the moutnian. That is about 7 days later AFTER John the Baptist beheaded.- Matt 17:1-13.
I believe John the Baptist's soul went to heaven after he was beheaded, is Elijah. Then, Elijah came back to earth third time.
Jesus told three disciples - Matt 17:12 that they do not realized that Elijah already come to earth to preach the kingdom. Then next verse 13, the disciples wer understood, that Elijah is John the Baptist.
Malachi 4:5 already fulfilled that Elijah already come to earth tp preach the kingdom, and baptized people in the water.
The two witnesses of Revelation chapter 11- John does not saying they are Moses and Elijah.
These are the figurative and symbol. Two witnesses are represent Christians - Olive Tree and Candlestick.
Christians shall witness the gospel for 42 months. Many Christians shall be killed by persecution under the Antichrist.
Then, Christians shall be resurrection and caught up at the seventh trumpet is the resurrection/rapture at the end of Great Tribulaiton.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
Posttrib/Amill
DeafPosttrib
New Member
Please delete or removed this post, I do not mean to post it twice. Thanks!
Note that even after the crucifixion and resurrection, Jerusalem could still be referred to as "the holy city" (Matthew 27:53), just as it will still be "the holy city" during the coming tribulation (Revelation 11:2).
Note that the Bible doesn't teach reincarnation, for "it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment" (Hebrews 9:27). Reincarnation denies the coming judgment and eternal punishment in hell. It encourages people to continue in their sin without fear, believing they can die in their sin and work out any "bad karma" in their next life.
John the Baptist simply ministered in the same spirit that God gave to Elijah, just as Elisha did: "And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias" (Luke 1:17); "The spirit of Elijah doth rest on Elisha" (2 Kings 2:15).
John expressly denied being Elijah: "Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not" (John 1:21).
I believe the two witnesses, "the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth" (Revelation 11:4), are Moses and Elijah, the two men that stand by the Lord at the transfiguration (Luke 9:30-31). I believe Revelation 11:4 is referring back to Zechariah, where it says "these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side... are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord" (Zechariah 4:11, 14).
I believe Moses and Elijah will appear in their original bodies in the tribulation, for they are killed at one point and their dead bodies lie in the street (Revelation 11:8). Elijah was taken bodily into heaven (2 Kings 2:11), and I believe Moses' body was recovered from Satan by Michael (Jude 1:9).
Note that the plagues brought on by the two witnesses of turning water to blood, shutting heaven so that it doesn't rain, and devouring their enemies with fire (Revelation 11:5-6), exactly match what Moses and Elijah did during their first time on the earth (Exodus 7:20; 1 Kings 17:1; 2 Kings 1:10).
http://www.geocities.com/postrib
[ January 24, 2003, 06:13 AM: Message edited by: postrib ]
I personally don't believe the raising and ascension of the two witnesses is the 1st resurrection and rapture because their raising and ascension is completed before the 7th trumpet even begins to sound, and is part of the 6th trumpet (or 2nd "woe"), which is an entirely different "woe" than the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:11-15, 8:13, 9:12). I don't believe the 1st resurrection and rapture of the church will take place until after the "last trump" sounds (1 Corinthians 15:52, compare 1 Thessalonians 4:16).
I don't believe the 7th trumpet is the "last trump" because the Lord won't return and sound the last trump until "after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), the final stage of which I believe is the 7 vials. Between the 6th and 7th vials, Jesus exhorts us to hold on (Revelation 16:15). I believe this is the same blessing as Daniel 12:11-12, so that we must wait the full 1,335 days, not just 1,260, for the 1st resurrection and rapture.
I don't believe Christ will come to gather us up until the 7 vials are finished, for when Christ comes the Antichrist is destroyed (2 Thessalonians 2:1, 8). The Antichrist isn't destroyed when the two witnesses arise, for he is still gathering his armies after the 6th vial (Revelation 16:12-16), and isn't destroyed until the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-20), after the vials (Revelation 16).
Note that they only beheld the two witnesses rising in Revelation 11:12; they didn't behold the coming of Christ or the rapture and resurrection of the entire church. None of these are found in Revelation 11:12, just as none of these are found at the "come up hither" spoken only to John in Revelation 4:1.
I don't believe the raising of the two witnesses is the 1st resurrection for the same reasons raisings in the past weren't the 1st resurrection. I believe the two witnesses are merely resuscitated back into their mortal bodies like Lazarus or those many after Christ's resurrection were raised (John 12:9-10, Matthew 27:52-53), and translated in their mortal bodies into heaven like Elijah and Enoch were taken into heaven (2 Kings 2:11, Genesis 5:24).
DeafPosttrib
New Member
You have to be realize the book of Revelation is not chronologically. Before I used to believe Revelation is chronology. Now, I realized it have retelling events and there have parallels in Revelation.
I have been reading and study Revelation many times over hundreds times, or a thousand time since 5 months before I became saved.
I have been reading Revelation repeat and repeat till I getting understand them better.
I urge you to study Revelation repeat and repeat till you get understand them better. Take your time.
Lot of Christians are easy misunderstand and misinterpreting on Revelation, because many of them read through in hurry. Actually, in fact, most Christians learned on Revelation through pastors, teachers, commentaries, and books.
Most Christians believe them, whatsoever they saying, they trust in them. Well, they might be wrong on their interpreting on Revelation. Every Christians are responsible to study the Bible by theirselve.
2 years ago, I asked pretrib pastor on Revelation. Does he believe Revelation is chrnonology? He told me, NO, it have retelling events and repeat. I agree with him. Also, he told me, Tim LaHaye believe 144,000 of Revelation 7 and 14 both are different group. He disagree on LaHaye's interpreting. Me too! I disagree with Tim LaHaye's interpreting. I strong believe 144,000 of Revelation 7 and 14 both are SAME group.
Revelation chapter 7 is talking about the gathering/rapture of the Christians after the sixth seal broken - at the end of Tribulation same with Matt 24:29-31.
Revelation chapter 14 is talking about the gathering/rapture of the Christians at the Second Advent.
I urge you to read Revelation repeat and repeat carefully till you get understand, take your time.
I am still learning never stop till I die or Lord comes.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
Posttrib/Amill
I have been reading and study Revelation many times over hundreds times, or a thousand time since 5 months before I became saved.
I have been reading Revelation repeat and repeat till I getting understand them better.
I urge you to study Revelation repeat and repeat till you get understand them better. Take your time.
Lot of Christians are easy misunderstand and misinterpreting on Revelation, because many of them read through in hurry. Actually, in fact, most Christians learned on Revelation through pastors, teachers, commentaries, and books.
Most Christians believe them, whatsoever they saying, they trust in them. Well, they might be wrong on their interpreting on Revelation. Every Christians are responsible to study the Bible by theirselve.
2 years ago, I asked pretrib pastor on Revelation. Does he believe Revelation is chrnonology? He told me, NO, it have retelling events and repeat. I agree with him. Also, he told me, Tim LaHaye believe 144,000 of Revelation 7 and 14 both are different group. He disagree on LaHaye's interpreting. Me too! I disagree with Tim LaHaye's interpreting. I strong believe 144,000 of Revelation 7 and 14 both are SAME group.
Revelation chapter 7 is talking about the gathering/rapture of the Christians after the sixth seal broken - at the end of Tribulation same with Matt 24:29-31.
Revelation chapter 14 is talking about the gathering/rapture of the Christians at the Second Advent.
I urge you to read Revelation repeat and repeat carefully till you get understand, take your time.
I am still learning never stop till I die or Lord comes.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
Posttrib/Amill
DeafPosttrib
New Member
You have to be realize the book of Revelation is not chronologically. Before I used to believe Revelation is chronology. Now, I realized it have retelling events and there have parallels in Revelation.
I have been reading and study Revelation many times over hundreds times, or a thousand time since 5 months before I became saved.
I have been reading Revelation repeat and repeat till I getting understand them better.
I urge you to study Revelation repeat and repeat till you get understand them better. Take your time.
Lot of Christians are easy misunderstand and misinterpreting on Revelation, because many of them read through in hurry. Actually, in fact, most Christians learned on Revelation through pastors, teachers, commentaries, and books.
Most Christians believe them, whatsoever they saying, they trust in them. Well, they might be wrong on their interpreting on Revelation. Every Christians are responsible to study the Bible by theirselve.
2 years ago, I asked pretrib pastor on Revelation. Does he believe Revelation is chrnonology? He told me, NO, it have retelling events and repeat. I agree with him. Also, he told me, Tim LaHaye believe 144,000 of Revelation 7 and 14 both are different group. He disagree on LaHaye's interpreting. Me too! I disagree with Tim LaHaye's interpreting. I strong believe 144,000 of Revelation 7 and 14 both are SAME group.
Revelation chapter 7 is talking about the gathering/rapture of the Christians after the sixth seal broken - at the end of Tribulation same with Matt 24:29-31.
Revelation chapter 14 is talking about the gathering/rapture of the Christians at the Second Advent.
I urge you to read Revelation repeat and repeat carefully till you get understand, take your time.
I am still learning never stop till I die or Lord comes.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
Posttrib/Amill
I have been reading and study Revelation many times over hundreds times, or a thousand time since 5 months before I became saved.
I have been reading Revelation repeat and repeat till I getting understand them better.
I urge you to study Revelation repeat and repeat till you get understand them better. Take your time.
Lot of Christians are easy misunderstand and misinterpreting on Revelation, because many of them read through in hurry. Actually, in fact, most Christians learned on Revelation through pastors, teachers, commentaries, and books.
Most Christians believe them, whatsoever they saying, they trust in them. Well, they might be wrong on their interpreting on Revelation. Every Christians are responsible to study the Bible by theirselve.
2 years ago, I asked pretrib pastor on Revelation. Does he believe Revelation is chrnonology? He told me, NO, it have retelling events and repeat. I agree with him. Also, he told me, Tim LaHaye believe 144,000 of Revelation 7 and 14 both are different group. He disagree on LaHaye's interpreting. Me too! I disagree with Tim LaHaye's interpreting. I strong believe 144,000 of Revelation 7 and 14 both are SAME group.
Revelation chapter 7 is talking about the gathering/rapture of the Christians after the sixth seal broken - at the end of Tribulation same with Matt 24:29-31.
Revelation chapter 14 is talking about the gathering/rapture of the Christians at the Second Advent.
I urge you to read Revelation repeat and repeat carefully till you get understand, take your time.
I am still learning never stop till I die or Lord comes.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
Posttrib/Amill
DeafPosttrib
New Member
Excuse me, I do not mean to post it same twice. Please delete this post. Thanks!
I personally believe that Revelation is in sequence, that the trumpets are subsequent to the seals because the 7 angels aren't given the 7 trumpets until after the 7th seal has been opened (Revelation 8:1-2, 6-7), and that the vials are subsequent to the trumpets, that they come out of the 7th trumpet's temple opening (Revelation 11:15, 19; 15:5-6).
I believe that the two witnesses will be alive during the same 1,260 days (Revelation 11:3) that the Antichrist will rule (Revelation 13:5), so that chapters 11 to 14 should be read as a unit -- all together they describe the events of the 1,260 days -- and shouldn't be read as if the events of chapter 13 happen after those of chapter 11, etc.
I believe the "great multitude" that "came out of great tribulation" (Revelation 7:9, 14) will be those of us Christians who will enter the tribulation and die in the war, famine, persecution, and cataclysm of the seals which occur in the chapter just prior (Revelation 6).
I think the rapture may not be at the 6th seal, but will be "after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), after the 7 trumpets and 7 vials are finished, for when Christ comes to gather us the Antichrist is destroyed (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). The Antichrist isn't destroyed at the 6th seal, for he is still gathering his armies after the 6th vial (Revelation 16:12-16), and isn't destroyed until the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-20), after the vials (Revelation 16).
I think that Revelation 14:14-16 may not be a rapture/resurrection: it could possibly be Jesus harvesting into heaven the souls of those Christians dying under the Antichrist for not taking the mark:
"They have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped" (Revelation 14:11-16).
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[ January 27, 2003, 05:36 AM: Message edited by: postrib ]
