HITLER'S PRESENT SITUATION

[Scarlett O.]

If Hitler is in hell for his heinous acts of mass killings, then I am doomed for hell because of being jealous of my dear friend's ring that she got for Christmas.

He murdered.

I coveted.

No difference.

No difference until I accepted the saving grace of God through the shed blood of Jesus. Now I am forgiven and can repent of sins both "big" and "small". Because of my repentance, God sees the Blood of Jesus that covers me, not my sin that I have repented of.

Conversely, I can only say that history gives no record of Hitler every acknowledging the grace of God, repenting of his sins, nor living the Spirit-filled life that Christians do.

If he is in hell, and I believe that he is, then he there because as an unrepentant man, he basically spit in God's face and refused Jesus.

Not one single murder of anyone, Jew or non-Jew, sent him there.

Peace-

YSIC
Scarlett O.
<><

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by Scarlett O.:
If Hitler is in hell for his heinous acts of mass killings, then I am doomed for hell because of being jealous of my dear friend's ring that she got for Christmas.

He murdered.

I coveted.

No difference.

No difference until I accepted the saving grace of God through the shed blood of Jesus. Now I am forgiven and can repent of sins both "big" and "small". Because of my repentance, God sees the Blood of Jesus that covers me, not my sin that I have repented of.

Conversely, I can only say that history gives no record of Hitler every acknowledging the grace of God, repenting of his sins, nor living the Spirit-filled life that Christians do.

If he is in hell, and I believe that he is, then he there because as an unrepentant man, he basically spit in God's face and refused Jesus.

Not one single murder of anyone, Jew or non-Jew, sent him there.

Peace-

YSIC
Scarlett O.
<><

Hi Scarlett,

How does this verse figure into the picture?

Rev 21:8 - "But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by whatever:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Scarlett O.:
If Hitler is in hell for his heinous acts of mass killings, then I am doomed for hell because of being jealous of my dear friend's ring that she got for Christmas.

He murdered.

I coveted.

No difference.

No difference until I accepted the saving grace of God through the shed blood of Jesus. Now I am forgiven and can repent of sins both "big" and "small". Because of my repentance, God sees the Blood of Jesus that covers me, not my sin that I have repented of.

Conversely, I can only say that history gives no record of Hitler every acknowledging the grace of God, repenting of his sins, nor living the Spirit-filled life that Christians do.

If he is in hell, and I believe that he is, then he there because as an unrepentant man, he basically spit in God's face and refused Jesus.

Not one single murder of anyone, Jew or non-Jew, sent him there.

Peace-

YSIC
Scarlett O.
&lt;&gt;&lt;

Hi Scarlett,

How does this verse figure into the picture?

Rev 21:8 - "But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death." </font>[/QUOTE]Whatever,

I believe I summed up the answer to your question in the following post that I posted earlier:

If Hitler is in Hell as we speak (which he is), then he is suffering God's judgement. However, it is not because he was a genocidal maniac. It is because of his not being saved, which was evidenced by him being a genocidal maniac along with Arafat.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[APuritanMindset]

Originally posted by James_Newman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by APuritanMindset:
No. As far as I know, he never came to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ, so he is not in hell as a result of his genocidal acts.

What do you mean by this? </font>[/QUOTE]What I mean is he is not in hell as a result of what he did. I don't know that he ever came to saving faith in Jesus Christ. If he did, than, despite his genocidal acts, he is in heaven. If he didn't, then, despite his genocidal acts, he is not in heaven.

 

[APuritanMindset]

Originally posted by James_Newman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by APuritanMindset:
No. As far as I know, he never came to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ, so he is not in hell as a result of his genocidal acts.

What do you mean by this? </font>[/QUOTE]What I mean is he is not in hell as a result of what he did. I don't know that he ever came to saving faith in Jesus Christ. If he did, than, despite his genocidal acts, he is in heaven. If he didn't, then, despite his genocidal acts, he is not in heaven.

 

[Scarlett O.]

Dear whatever,

(By the way, I love that name. I say it ALL of the time) Whatever!!

The verse that you quoted, in my humble opinion, is referring to unrepentant sinners, not sinners saved by grace.

If a person has murdered people and is not saved, then that is what God sees him as....a murderer.

Same thing with a liar, a sexually immoral person....etc. All of the sins listed in that verse could fit this application. If you are not saved, this is how God sees you. He loves you and wants you to be saved, but he sees your ugliness of sin.

But when a Christian repents of sin and confesses sin, even murders, rapes, sexual impurities, gossips, rages, and lies, then he or she is made new in Christ again and again. Not saved again and again (that only happens once), but renewed and sustained.

God looks at those confessed sins and repented-of deeds no more. They are as far as the east is from the west. He looks at us and sees Jesus shielding us.

That's my humble opinion.

Now everyone, let's go to bed!! Santa can't leave us any presents if we are all jibber-jabbering on the computer all night!!

Christ's Peace to you all-

YSIC
Scarlett O.
&lt;&gt;&lt;

 

[HankD]

It was: Is Hitler presently suffering under God's judgment as a result of his (Hitler's) genocidal acts?

No.

HankD

 

[BillyShope]

It's a shame that many prominent evangelists don't understand the crosswork of Christ as well as some of you who have posted.

Of course, Hitler is not suffering because of his genocidal acts. That suffering was already endured by our Savior on the cross. Hitler is suffering because he refused Christ.

When I was young in the Lord (mid sixties), there was an evangelist by the name of Bill Beany who broadcast out of Missouri. One day he said he had a booklet entitled, "Jack Ruby Is Not In Hell Because He Shot Lee Harvey Oswald." This made me furious! How could he say such a thing! So, I sent for the booklet. I learned, of course, that Jack Ruby is not in hell because he shot Oswald, but, instead, is there because he refused to turn to the One Who bore the punishment for that sin of murder on the cross.

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by BillyShope:
It's a shame that many prominent evangelists don't understand the crosswork of Christ as well as some of you who have posted.

Of course, Hitler is not suffering because of his genocidal acts. That suffering was already endured by our Savior on the cross. Hitler is suffering because he refused Christ.

When I was young in the Lord (mid sixties), there was an evangelist by the name of Bill Beany who broadcast out of Missouri. One day he said he had a booklet entitled, "Jack Ruby Is Not In Hell Because He Shot Lee Harvey Oswald." This made me furious! How could he say such a thing! So, I sent for the booklet. I learned, of course, that Jack Ruby is not in hell because he shot Oswald, but, instead, is there because he refused to turn to the One Who bore the punishment for that sin of murder on the cross.

Hi Billy,

At the risk of turning this into another C/A debate thread, let me ask a question or two or three. When Jesus was suffering for Hitler's genocidal acts, was He also suffering for Hitler's unbelief?

And if He was suffering for Hitler's unbelief, why does God still hold that unbelief against Hitler, but not the genocidal acts?

And if He was not suffering for Hitler's unbelief, then even if Hitler had turned to Christ, on what basis could his previous unbelief have ever been forgiven?

This question comes up a lot, and I know what several others around here say, and I really don't want to start anything. I'm just curious how you would answer.

 

[HankD]

And if...
And if...

There is only one sin worthy of condemnation:

John 3
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

The root of the tree is the love of darkness (unbelief), the fruit is the evil deeds (genocidal acts).

Matthew 12:32
33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

HankD

 

[LadyEagle]

What I meant was that the pain inflicted in hell will not be active punishment from God Himself, but a place where all evil will go to be seperated from God. Maybe the sentence should not have been written this way.
--------------------------------------------

Sorry, I don't agree with that premise and probably neither do most Baptists. Hell is separation from God, but it is active punishment as well, as demonstrated in the Rich Man and Lazaras story. Now I suppose we will get into a discussion about how that was just a "story" and doesn't "prove" anything about active punishment.

And yes, I believe Hitler is presently suffering under God's judgment, not only for not accepting Jesus Christ as his Saviour, but for his genocidal acts. I believe there are degrees of punishment in hell.

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by HankD:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />And if...
And if...

There is only one sin worthy of condemnation...</font>[/QUOTE]Hank,

You really didn't answer the question - did Jesus pay the penalty for that sin too, or just for the "fruit" sins?

 

[BillyShope]

Originally posted by whatever:
...was He also suffering for Hitler's unbelief?

The sin of unbelief is the unforgivable sin and, therefore, the one which condemns an individual to hell and for which he is punished. In addition, there are degrees of punishment based upon works (not sins). Whether these works, mentioned in Luke 6:33 and the last phrase of Rev. 20:12, increase or decrease the punishment is, I believe, open to debate. Personally, I believe they increase the punishment. (See my comments in the "levels" thread.)

This discussion would be nonsense to a Calvinist, of course, since he would say that the punishment for Hitler's sins must be borne by Hitler. As for his own sins, he would point to his good works as proof that he is of the elect, meaning that Christ bore his sins on the cross.

 

[Ps104_33]

I think that Hitler is in hell for not receiving Jesus Christ as his personal savior but I also think it is much hotter where he is because because of the heinousness of his sin. I believe there are degrees of punishment in hell accoring to how wicked a person was in life. Just as there will be degrees of rewards in Heaven according to how a Christian served Christ and His Church while on earth.

Now I cant really say I can support this with Scripture so it is not "Thus saith the Lord" but it makes sense to me.
So I would say that yes, in a sense Hitler will be suffering because of his murdering of 6,000,000 Jews whereas someone like that honest law abiding member of the United Methodist Church who never accepted Jesus Christ will not suffer as much but will none the less suffer.

 

[HankD]

Hank,

You really didn't answer the question - did Jesus pay the penalty for that sin too, or just for the "fruit" sins?

I believe I answered it "whatever" but not to your satisfaction.

In one word - everything, both the root and the fruit.

There is only one sin, the fruit of it is the evidence.

Cut down the apple tree and cast it into the fire and everything gets burned up in the fire.

HankD

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by BillyShope:
The sin of unbelief is the unforgivable sin and, therefore, the one which condemns an individual to hell and for which he is punished.

I used to be an unbeliever too, but I was forgiven of that sin as well as the rest, on the basis of Christ's death and resurrection.

Originally posted by BillyShope:
This discussion would be nonsense to a Calvinist, of course, since he would say that the punishment for Hitler's sins must be borne by Hitler. As for his own sins, he would point to his good works as proof that he is of the elect, meaning that Christ bore his sins on the cross.

I'm not sure where that came from. Calvinists point to persevering faith in Christ as evidence of election. Why is election even relevant to this discussion, though?

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by HankD:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Hank,

You really didn't answer the question - did Jesus pay the penalty for that sin too, or just for the "fruit" sins?

I believe I answered it "whatever" but not to your satisfaction.

In one word - everything, both the root and the fruit.

There is only one sin, the fruit of it is the evidence.

Cut down the apple tree and cast it into the fire and everything gets burned up in the fire.

HankD </font>[/QUOTE]OK, I see where you are coming from.

 

[BillyShope]

Originally posted by whatever:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BillyShope:
The sin of unbelief is the unforgivable sin and, therefore, the one which condemns an individual to hell and for which he is punished.

I used to be an unbeliever too, but I was forgiven of that sin as well as the rest, on the basis of Christ's death and resurrection.

This is quite interesting! The principle of "double jeopardy" is highly valued among peoples everywhere. And, it is generally assumed that God honors the same principle. Yet, if the sin of unbelief was borne, for all men, by Christ on the cross, we have that principle violated if the unrepentent sinner must again bear that punishment in hell. I realize the world isn't eagerly awaiting my understanding of the matter, so I'll simply have to say that this is presently a mystery.

Originally posted by whatever:

Originally posted by BillyShope:
This discussion would be nonsense to a Calvinist, of course, since he would say that the punishment for Hitler's sins must be borne by Hitler. As for his own sins, he would point to his good works as proof that he is of the elect, meaning that Christ bore his sins on the cross.

I'm not sure where that came from. Calvinists point to persevering faith in Christ as evidence of election. Why is election even relevant to this discussion, though? </font>

And, what is the fleshly evidence of "persevering faith"? When you finish with Calvin's lengthy explanations, is it not the works performed by the individual? This is pertinent in that the Calvinist would say that the punishment for the sins of the lost (i.e., the non-elect)were never under consideration at the cross, so, naturally, Hitler would be punished for those sins in hell.

 

[Daniel David]

Billy, Revelation 20:8 ends this ridiculous tirade of yours. People are judged by the sins they commit in their body. Unbelief is just another sin like murder, theft, being a Gator fan, voting for a democrat, not driving a Ford truck, and secretly hoping for the South to rise again.

Btw, you aren't going to sneak up on too many people here. You might think you were creative, but you weren't. I knew exactly where you were trying to steer this discussion.

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by BillyShope:
Yet, if the sin of unbelief was borne, for all men, by Christ on the cross, we have that principle violated if the unrepentent sinner must again bear that punishment in hell.

Yet, if the sin of unbelief was not borne, for me, by Christ on the cross, then by what principle could I ever be forgiven for my unbelief? Interesting indeed.