Honest debate of Lordship Salvation

TC Greek:

I agree with you that the definition Lou provided of repentance is accurate. However, our denomination's (I am in the SBC also) statement of faith, the Baptist Faith & Message 2000, disagrees. It states, "Repentance is a genuine turning from sin toward God."

I have always bristled at the "turn from sin" view, because it seems to imply a required "self-reformation", prior to salvation.

I like the rest of the BF&M, but this definition is a real challenge for me.

Your thoughts?

 

You have brought up a very good point. Even one who is regenerated doesn't "turn from sin" always, so we can't expect an unregenerated person to do so in order to receive salvation. They only need to admit the inevitable, that they are sinners and they are separated from God, and turn to Him for salvation (true repentance).

 

Allan:

FWIW, I trust you understand there is a BIG difference between "dependence" on, and "whole-hearted commitment, full surrender."

You do recognize the difference; don't you?


LM

 

TC:

Thanks for your comment.

That definition is an important part of the revised version of my book.


LM

 

Paul:

Thanks for the comment.

The "turn from sin" statement can be problematic as you noted. IMO, you can only to turn to God to do for you what you cannot do for yourself; and what the Holy Spirit is convincing and convicting of at the time (John 16:7-ff).

Kind regards,


Lou

 

Welcome to the BB.



I'll be back.

Ed

 

Hi Paul,

1. At one level the SBC statement is correct, because a sinner has been violating the holiness of God in sin---so the conviction and work of the Spirit brings about this realization, which causes the sinner to change her thinking toward this violation of the holiness of God because of sin and then turn to Christ in faith (Acts 20:21).

2. SBC only provides basic definitions, so one must turn to Scripture. Do not let the SBC statement of faith become your Bible.

3. I know what you mean, but only the Spirit can bring about this conviction through the Word (John 16). When this happens the sinner would ask the question What must I do?

 

I take issue with your unsupported claim that " even one who is regenerated doesn't "turn from sin" always." Someone who is regenerated ALWAYS turns away from sin. That may not be convenient or easy to accept but it's certainly Biblical.

 

You don't sin? Unreal... :BangHead:

I've been regenerated, and I continue to sin.

 

Yes that is my feeling as well, it is a wider and deeper word than our phrase "change of mind".

My feeling is that the "morpho" is the form or image of Christ. We are changed from the image of Adam to the image of Christ and that to me has its root in our thinking which is impacted by the Spirit and the Word of God. If this is true then one aspect of "repentance" is life long.

Dont be sorry

Kittels is indeed a mixed bag. But to me sometimes that is valuable.

Thank you for your response JoJ.

HankD

 

I certainly agree that the results of true repentance are life long! I'll have to think through the rest.

Any time, brother! :wavey:

 

Sorry, but no you don't.

Back to :sleep: mode.


LM

 

Twin Errors on Repentance

Paul:

Hi, I see you are new to BB.

Earlier in this thread I linked to an article I wrote on the Lordship Salvation view of Repentance. I'll provide the link once more to make sure you have a chance to read it.

Based on what I have read from you here I think you'll appreciate it.

How Does the Lordship Advocate Define Repentance?

Then, I believe I saw you reference the Free Grace community. You may be aware of a huge rift and division in the FG community over the Zane Hodges "Crossless" interpretation of the Gospel. Bob Wilkin and the GES hold to this position and many have left the GES over it.

Anyway, Hodges, Wilkin and the GES take a different view of repentance than the LS side, but it is no less disconcerting.

You can read of it in this article, Is There Such a Thing as Repentance...?

Hope you find these helpful.


LM

 

Your simple illumination here exposes the end of erring rationalization. And this is a symptom of the ills of Calvinism. While God's Holy Word clearly presents certain absolutes, a body of absolutes forwarded by Calvinists are not reflective of those "real" absolutes in Scripture. Hence, Calvinists speak in very absolute terms that with even the most basic method of concluding s its fractured structure is exposed.

Here one claims that "someone who is regenerated ALWAYS turns away from sin" and you, in a most milk based doctrinal position demonstrate the obvious and fatal flaw of the end of this claims. Thank you WD.

A claim has been made, that believers "ALWAYS" act in a certain way. You accepted that claim, that "someone who is regenerated ALWAYS turns away from sin" and then investigated its truthfulness. You prescribed it to your self and found it a FAILURE since as a believer you, yourself, know you still sin which means you don't always turn away from it. You took a faulty idea and revealed its erring end. Never minding the plethora of accounts in the Bible of believers not always turning away from sin. You didn't have to go that far since your very first case found the idea to be invalid.

The only thing left of course is for someone to come along and now help you understand that "ALWAYS turns away from sin" doesn't mean what you thought it meant. :laugh:

 

Lou,
Thanks for the welcome and the information you provided. I have read your book and was blessed by it. I fall into the Charles Ryrie/Charles Stanley position, and I think Dr. Wilkin erred when he abandoned his original position on repentance. It seems that Professor Hodges is extremely influential over Wilkin and others in the extreme FG movement. His views seem to automatically become the default positions of the men you have described on your blog. This is unfortunate.

My primary concerns at the moment center around the generally poor understanding of repentance in its soteriological context in the Southern Baptist Convention and the rise of strict Calvinism (and the worship of John Piper) among young SBC pastors.

Keep providing the information on LS. I realize you are taking heat, but, to many of us, the material is quite helpful.

 

Careful.......... he will call you a liar too.

 

Your posts read as "Nuh, uh!"

Continuing to state the same things over and over agains does not make them so.