Honest debate of Lordship Salvation

webdog · Dec 7, 2007

reformedbeliever said:

You read well web.
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Care to elaborate on this, then?
I understand sir....... and that is my wish too. It is not about Calvinism for me either..... but I do believe sir that Calvinism is at the root of the disagreement between Lou, Quack and other non calvinist with those who hold to reformed theology.

reformedbeliever · Dec 7, 2007

webdog said:

Care to elaborate on this, then?
I understand sir....... and that is my wish too. It is not about Calvinism for me either..... but I do believe sir that Calvinism is at the root of the disagreement between Lou, Quack and other non calvinist with those who hold to reformed theology.
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I think the problem has already been noted. Canady noted the fact that most Calvinist believe that regeneration comes before one can exercise their faith or at least at the same time. Lou holds to one believing before he is regenerated........ hense the disagreement. JM is most definately Calvinist... and he holds the belief that God's gift is given to man (faith) when he is given the new nature to respond in belief/faith.... and after this he does respond with commitment to Jesus. Does that make sense web. I have a hard time putting things I want to say into words. I hope it makes sense for you.

reformedbeliever · Dec 7, 2007

I too have a problem with the way JM words the part about whole hearted commitment. Regenerate people may have intentions about being whole heartedly committed to Jesus... but their commitment falls way short too many times.

canadyjd · Dec 7, 2007

webdog said:

Your posts read as "Nuh, uh!"

Continuing to state the same things over and over agains does not make them so.
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That is why I actually took you to MacArthur's website and demonstrated that he didn't require "upfront" commitment prior to salvation and that he rejects the notion of a works based salvation.

However, you just keep repeating the same ole things, regardless of the facts that have been presented to you.

peace to youraying:

canadyjd · Dec 7, 2007

webdog said:

Because canady has said there are those coming at this dishonestly, doe not make it so. Nobody has done this, IMO, and the title of the thread is misleading.
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I have demonstrated it by comparing what Lou claims John MacArthur teaches with (in context) quotes from MacArthur's website, specifically on this subject.

That has yet to be responded to by you or Lou, simply because there is no denying the side by side comparison demonstrates MacArthur is being misrepresented.

peace to youraying:

canadyjd · Dec 7, 2007

reformedbeliever said:

I too have a problem with the way JM words the part about whole hearted commitment. Regenerate people may have intentions about being whole heartedly committed to Jesus... but their commitment falls way short too many times.
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When you look honestly at what J.Mac is saying on Lordship, then I, too, have stated the same thing you are saying concerning "wholehearted" commitment.

He doesn't appear, at least initially, to allow for growth in commitment toward Jesus as a person matures in their faith.

If that is what LS teaches, then I disagree.

peace to youraying:

TCGreek · Dec 7, 2007

reformedbeliever said:

I understand sir....... and that is my wish too. It is not about Calvinism for me either..... but I do believe sir that Calvinism is at the root of the disagreement between Lou, Quack and other non calvinist with those who hold to reformed theology.
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Why that is the case, I don't know. I do not see Calvinism as a direct link to the LS framing. Does anyone see a link?

Alex Quackenbush · Dec 8, 2007

TCGreek said:

Why that is the case, I don't know. I do not see Calvinism as a direct link to the LS framing. Does anyone see a link?
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Yes, the Calvinist doctrine of Perseverance is the primary source for the development of LS. The same conclusions incorporated into P are applied in LS.

Rippon · Dec 8, 2007

What's the matter Q ? Can't you admit you made a blunder ? BB is not a Calvinist ( apparently you thought so ) so you made an unwarranted leap and charged Calvinists with holding to his views . Please document just one Calvinist here or elsewhere who claims that someone who is regenerate always turns away from sin . If you can't furnish such a quote admit your folly and move on . But please don't go on a grandiloquent rant in an attempt to cover-up your unfounded assertions .[/quote]

Again ,please document your assertion .

Isaiah40:28 · Dec 8, 2007

canadyjd said:

When you look honestly at what J.Mac is saying on Lordship, then I, too, have stated the same thing you are saying concerning "wholehearted" commitment.

He doesn't appear, at least initially, to allow for growth in commitment toward Jesus as a person matures in their faith.

If that is what LS teaches, then I disagree.

peace to youraying:
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Hi canadyjd,
I have some quotes from various proponents of the Lordship Salvation debate. I post the following quotes to perhaps help you understand what the LS position is and what it is not. Hope you find it helpful regardless of what stand you take in this issue.

From Kenneth Gentry's short book entitled Lord of the Saved: Getting to the Heart of the Lordship Debate which I have been reading and reading throughout the duration of this thread.

Gentry said:

Christian faith results in Christian life, and Christian life is, by its very nature, in conflict with the world and self. This is not to say that in order to be a Christian one has to perform certain prerequisite, meritorious works. It simply affirms that to follow Christ for eternal life means having an attitude of self-denial and looking in trust and hope, not to self, but to Christ as Lord.
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Gentry said:

Paul sternly warns professing believers, "Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Prove yourselves" (2 Cor. 13:5). John teaches, "No one who is born of God practices sin"(1 John 3:9, NASB). James says, "Faith without works is dead" (James 2:20). Faith is living, productive, and fruitful. That does not imply perfectionism, eradicationism(the eradication of the sin nature), synergism(redemption by the aid of man), or autosoterism(self-salvation). The lordship view of discipleship is essentially the same as the nonlordship view, except that all believers are considered disciples.
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And this is John Macarthur speaking about the call to repentance from his book The Gospel According to Jesus( revised and expanded edition)

Macarthur said:

Repentance is not a one-time act. The repentance that takes place at conversion begins a progressive, lifelong process of confession (1 John 1:9).
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Here also is Sam Storms (http:///www.enjoyinggodministries.com/article/the-lordship-salvation-debate) commenting on the LS position:

Sam Storms said:

Thus lordship salvation recognizes a distinction between the implicit acknowledgment by the new convert of the principle of Christ's rightful authority over his life and the explicit practice of progressive submission to the Christ who is Lord. Receiving Christ as Savior and Lord does not mean the new convert is wholly committed. It does mean he is committed to being holy.
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Sam Storms continues with some thoughts from John Piper:

Sam Storms said:

John Piper provides the following helpful illustration.
Someone might object by saying that she accepted Jesus as Savior when twelve years old but didn't submit to His Lordship until she was 30. "If Lordship salvation is true," she says, "had I died when I was a teenager I would have gone to hell."

No. Jesus was her Lord from the moment of her conversion. Her experience since then has been one of more or less yieldedness to his sovereign rights as Lord over her life. She says she didn't fully submit to his lordship then. She is right. But she has not fully submitted even now, or she would be sinlessly perfect. The Christian life is one that begins with accepting and bowing to Jesus as Sovereign ruler and Lord . . . with a progressive degree of experiential submission as one matures. The Lordship of Christ is not something one discovers and yields to only once but thousands of times over the course of our Christian experience.
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canadyjd · Dec 8, 2007

Isaiah40:28 said:

Hi canadyjd,
I have some quotes from various proponents of the Lordship Salvation debate. I post the following quotes to perhaps help you understand what the LS position is and what it is not. Hope you find it helpful regardless of what stand you take in this issue.....Kenneth Gentry's short book entitled Lord of the Saved: Getting to the Heart of the Lordship Debate....John Macarthur speaking about the call to repentance from his book The Gospel According to Jesus( revised and expanded edition)....Here also is Sam Storms (http:///www.enjoyinggodministries.com/article/the-lordship-salvation-debate) commenting on the LS position:....Sam Storms continues with some thoughts from John Piper:
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Thank you very much! These quotes are helpful to my understanding, particularly Sam Storm.

Originally Posted by Sam Storms
Thus lordship salvation recognizes a distinction between the implicit acknowledgment by the new convert of the principle of Christ's rightful authority over his life and the explicit practice of progressive submission to the Christ who is Lord. Receiving Christ as Savior and Lord does not mean the new convert is wholly committed. It does mean he is committed to being holy.
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This was one area which I misunderstood. The idea of "explicit practice of progressive submission to Christ...."deomonstrates that, at least some, advocates of LS do understand a believer will mature in their faith, which will lead to greater commitment to our Lord.

Thank you again:thumbs: Isaiah40:28

peace to youraying:

Isaiah40:28 · Dec 8, 2007

canadyjd said:

Thank you very much! These quotes are helpful to my understanding, particularly Sam Storm.This was one area which I misunderstood. The idea of "explicit practice of progressive submission to Christ...."deomonstrates that, at least some, advocates of LS do understand a believer will mature in their faith, which will lead to greater commitment to our Lord.

Thank you again:thumbs: Isaiah40:28

peace to youraying:
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Glad you found the post helpful.
I looked for John MacArthur's teaching on sanctification and found this link:
http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/90-287.htm

John MacArthur said:

Now when I mention the idea of sanctification, you know what I mean by that—that’s the progress towards holiness—that’s spiritual growth. That’s becoming increasingly separated from sin and separated unto Jesus Christ. Sanctification begins at our salvation and it ends, or culminates, at our glorification. We are justified: declared righteous at our salvation; we are glorified—made fully righteous when we see the Lord face to face. In the meantime we are being progressively sanctified, that is, we are progressively being separated from sin unto Christ.

The process of sanctification goes on all our life long and we never arrive at the finish—there is no such thing in this life as perfect sanctification, but the process is dependent upon Scripture. Just as the process of your own growth is dependent upon food: you grow as you eat, and our food is Scripture—the Word of God: “Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God” [Matthew 4:4]. Characteristic of life is growth; where there is life there is growth; where there is growth there is life—it’s not static. We grow because we live, and we live because we eat, and we eat the Word of God.
So the Scripture then is the food that fuels our spiritual growth and our sanctification.
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John MacArthur said:

When you become a Christian; when you become saved, you know God, God is your father, and you depend on God, and you trust God, and you know God loves you and that’s what you know, and that’s basically all you know. You are still immature. You recognize whose you are; you recognize who cares for you; who loves you; who gave His Son for you; you have attachment to God; you have dependence on God. It is more regulated by your trust than by your knowledge.

It is characteristic of immaturity to be attached—right? What do we mark out as maturity? When a child grows to the point where they detach—right? Where they are on their own. Where they are responsible.

It is characteristic of children, according to Ephesians 4:13 and 14 to be “tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine.” Why? Because all their ignorance hasn’t been eliminated. They are in the process of learning the ABC’s—the elements, Hebrews 5:12 and 13 describes children as those who lack discernment; they don’t have the criteria to discern, so they need to be protected because they are really susceptible to error.
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John MacArthur said:

There you see very clearly what takes you from spiritual infancy and vulnerability to spiritual strength: the Word of God—you know what it is.
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If you have time to read the whole sermon, I think you will find that what MacArthur teaches and believes is very much in line with the views of the others already quoted.

canadyjd · Dec 8, 2007

Isaiah40:28 said:

Glad you found the post helpful.
I looked for John MacArthur's teaching on sanctification and found this link......:
http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/90-287.htm

If you have time to read the whole sermon, I think you will find that what MacArthur teaches and believes is very much in line with the views of the others already quoted.
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From what I knew of J.Mac, I suspected that to be true.

What is curious however, is his talk of "wholehearted commitment" being an element (if you will) of salvific faith in his discussion of the Lordship issue. I am, I suppose, not quite understanding what he means by "wholehearted commitment" and how that is related to maturing in the faith.

peace to youraying:

blackbird · Dec 9, 2007

This thread has reached the Baptist Board page limit of 30 and will be closed

There is a similiar thread of like subject in this forum---please feel free to continue discussions there

Blackbird

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