Honest debate of Lordship Salvation

I think you two are talking on different levels of the same plane.

One does not have to fully grasp Christ Lordship in order to be saved.
However, to be saved one must be fully dependant upon Christ to save them and keep them, thus establishing the very basic principle of the Lordship issue, whether it is something they grasp AS Lordship or not.

What is being contended by John and others is that salvation in Christ is not defined by your understanding of the full meaning of Lordship but that it is dependant upon who Christ is and what He has done. To make the understanding of Lordship a priority in salvation is to encumber the Gospel to whether or not we fully grasp Lordship and not grace or both grace AND Lordship.

The fact is, we are to grasp grace and that He alone is able and desirous to save.


On the other hand Pastor Larry and other sare merely acknowledging the basic principle that comes with salvation even if the person doesn't fully grasp the principle yet. That being, when they repent and recieve salvation they ARE setting themselves under Christ's Lordship to both save and Keep them, even though they do not yet fully grasp the concept we understand in spiritual maturity.

I think both are missing each other because you are talking about two different spiritual levels of understanding but speaking to the same thing. Both are right.

It is only when you state that full understanding of Christs Lordship and our verbal declaration of our submittance to it as a prerequisit to salvation is unbiblical. We do not use the term Lord (in the sense of a ruler) as they did back then, but most will agree that they submit to the Godhood of Christ to save and keep them. Why? Because they understand that aspect better (Godhood vs Lordship) Both exemplify rulership and absolute authority over an individual but both are not understood in the same light today, with regard to subject being discussed involving salvation.

Just my opinion though.

 

In John MacArthur's The Gospel According to Jesus both the original and revised version (pp. 218 & 252 respectively) this statement appears,

Here is the passage Dr. MacArthur refers to as an “invitation to salvation”

I will ask just two questions for honest debate:

1) Is the epistle of James, and this passage specifically, directed to the lost or to those who are saved already?

2) Where in James 4:7-10 do we find salvation by grace through faith (Eph. 2:8-9)?


LM
__________________

 

“Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved”.

When the gospel is presented clearly and properly, the persons considering salvation will have had made clear them to that Jesus is God (Lord), that the Jesus of the Bible is the only Jesus that saves (and not another) and that He is the Christ.(the anointed one, the Messiah, the only means of salvation).

When the gospel is presented the Bible does not say, “You must make Him Jesus”. He IS Jesus. When the gospel is presented the Bible does not say, “You must make Him Christ or Messiah or The Annointed One”. He IS Christ. Nor does it say, “You must make Him Lord”. He IS Lord.

Instead, The Lord Jesus Christ is to be presented as IN FACT, The Lord, Jesus and The Christ. It is not an offer for you to make Him any of these but an offer for you to receive salvation from and by means of The Lord Jesus Christ.

Hence, what occurs is that instead of focusing on presenting the gospel plainly and clearly regarding who the Lord Jesus Christ is, a preoccupation with what is going on in the minds of the person hearing the gospel is attempted. This is not anyone’s job, that is the Lord’s responsibility.

And this is a critical problem with “Lordship” salvation.

Believers are only commissioned to make the gospel clear, not control or manipulate the responses of others or micromanage their thought process.

If you have been faithful to clearly communicate “The Lord Jesus Christ” then with the person who says “I believe”, you can know with certainty they believe on “The Lord Jesus Christ”.

You cannot and do not have to power to “make Him Lord” any more than you have the power to “make Him Christ” or “make Him Jesus”. The Bible does not treat these as potentials but as certain facts that you are to believe or not to believe.

If you do not believe Jesus is God then you are not a candidate for salvation. If you do not believe Jesus was or is Jesus, you are not a candidate for salvation. If you do not believe He is The Christ, you are not a candidate for salvation. They are the inseparable realities of the gospel.

*Also posted in another thread I created.

 

Alex, who's Jim? :laugh:

Sorry, I thought that was funny. Back to the discussion...

 

I haven't gotten into this thread because I believe the title of the OP was insinuting that the other conversation in regards to LS was not an honest one. That offended me. Just because a few people want to blow hot air and accuse non LS'ers of dishonest means and taking JM's quotes out of context does not make it so. John of Japan's posts on this thread are excellent, and clearly show the problems with LS...the same problems pointed out in the other thread.

Allan also has clearly demonstrated what LS SHOULD be...a call to full discipleship AFTER salvation, not as a prerequisite FOR salvation.

 

We are expected to grow in maturity and God commands such. But must remember that we are all individually responsible for our spiritual growth in the Christ. We can remain babes, as Paul references to some believers who have not grown as they aught, so to did Peter. They lamented that they must continue giving them the milk of the word. So yes, we can stay in a babe like state.

Since when is a 'lack of progress in spiritual maturity' a defining aspect of conversion. No believer can maintain their old life with no conviction of sin. So there is a distinction between the saved (though still a babe) and those who are not born again to new life in Christ. But that distinction isn't about how much or fast they grow but a definate changed life.

When we start saying "ok, a changed life is the definer. Now how much of a changed life proves salvation" we are wandering to far from what God has asked of us. That being to share the Gospel, baptize, and make disciples. If they are truly saved, God will bring them around or they will leave of their own accord or because of church disciple. If they return after a time, then praise God. If they do not return to God then they 'most likely' were not one of us.

But that begs the next question - how much time must pass till we make that declaration? Easy - till they come back (so don't stop praying for their repentence), or they make themselves an enemy of Christ and gospel.

 

:laugh: :laugh: Now that was hilarious. I was tempted to leave it there because it really read hilariously, but since we have so many who are too easily distracted, well you know. Funny.

 

I saw that to. I read it like 4 times cause I though it was intentional but couldn't figure out what he was saying :laugh: :laugh:

 

Just wanted to make sure not to take your quotes out of context (like John Mac)...and see if you were promoting "another gospel" :laugh:

 

The new doctrine of Jim Jesus...:laugh:

 

I hope you don't have any Kool-Aid stocked in your kitchen

 

Remember, I am a FORMER CALVINIST...oops. :laugh:

 

I have had an unusually busy time at work, and still am.

I am going to come back to JM’s take on James You are not the first and won’t be the last to dismiss an obvious doctrinal error by calling it an “overstatement.” There are many so-called “overstatements,” in his books. and they run like a thread through his four apologetics on LS, and they all point in one direction: LS is a man-centered, non-saving message that frustrates grace (Gal. 2:21).

I am also going to deal with MacArthur, “full surrender” quote.

There is, however, an important point I need to raise with you and base it in part from this note you posted

1) Your statement above is based on the Calvinistic extra-biblical presupposition that regeneration must precede faith. Therefore, the theology is flawed from the outset and will flow from the extra-biblical presupposition will be flawed.

See Lordship’s Out of Order Salvation

See The Danger of Teaching That Regeneration Precedes Faith

2) It seems from some statements you made that you have not read his LS books. Have you, at least read, cover-to-cover, The Gospel According to Jesus and his revised and expanded edition of the same? Please advise.

Off to work.


LM

 

I know what you are saying. You are saying that Moses on the mountain top was a difference Moses than the one who could take his veil off, right? That is, we (and I, more specifically) can give our whole lives to God at the point of salvation, the 'mountain top," but gradually, we 1) didn't realize what the whole life we gave God consisted of and/or 2) the world that we have to go back to live in wears on us.

Are we saved? Absolutely!! But here's the proviso -- we are saved spiritually in eternity but, unless we can and do practive LS in this life, we may not feel or look saved to others.

And you can see the obvious dangers -- we start having "witch hunts" after those who don't appear to be saved according to our standards. We start declaring heretics and anethemas and excommunications upon those who are struggling with the world. Just look at this board for confirmation. :tear:

The teaching of LS is just as dangerous as if JM were a Pharisee. It emphasizes a pattern of behavior in place of genuine, self-initiated repentance toward God, what we call "conversion."

skypair

 

I'm with you on this one, John. The most I get out of the confession is that Jesus is "Lord of all," the larger, general sense. The confession would be He IS God!

I recall I gave Him my life with the knowledge that He could work any way He wanted to to accomplish His plan for my life. But I didn't take that to be "Lord" rather than "Father."

Likewise with Jesus. I didn't see Him as "friend" anymore but "brother" and "bridegroom." That is, we would work together -- "yokefellows" -- to "straignten the crooked path." He gives me the power of the Holy Spirit whereby I can have His strength and direction as a son and brother would.

skypair