honest question to PB's and Reformed's

[pinoybaptist]

I forgot where it was but there's something I read somewhere that since not all the elect will be benefited with timely blessings because not all will obey the gospel then LIMITED ATONEMENT is proven.
Now I know this sounds like a question only for PB's since on this board we are the only ones (so far) that speak of, and espouse, the doctrine of Gospel salvation as distinct and separate from eternal salvation.
Nevertheless, I'd like to hear from other than PB's who also say they hold to the Doctrine of Grace.
PLEASE, let us keep the discussion focused on LIMITED ATONEMENT within the context of the questioned premise as stated in the intro,
Thank you.

 

[HankD]

I forgot where it was but there's something I read somewhere that since not all the elect will be benefited with timely blessings because not all will obey the gospel then LIMITED ATONEMENT is proven.
Now I know this sounds like a question only for PB's since on this board we are the only ones (so far) that speak of, and espouse, the doctrine of Gospel salvation as distinct and separate from eternal salvation.
Nevertheless, I'd like to hear from other than PB's who also say they hold to the Doctrine of Grace.
PLEASE, let us keep the discussion focused on LIMITED ATONEMENT within the context of the questioned premise as stated in the intro,
Thank you.

I'll give a response...

Bear with me as this is from personal experience and an opinion about certain scripture.

Early on in my salvation experience I felt that the "elect" had been given a predispositioning to faith which preceded their flesh birth though I never thought it through as to what would happen if there were those who went through this life and never heard the gospel with no opportunity to respond.

I wondered about this because when I came around to actually reading through the scripture (Book of John especially) for the first time, I knew Him in a personal manner, not just about Him but I knew Him and I heard Him calling me personally. Where did this personal knowledge come from? Was it implanted, when? In this life or from the foundation of the world?

Or was it my imagination?

Granted, my life was turned upside down from what it was before the - He found me/I found Him - experience which proved it was not anything I had conjured up because I certainly had a deep realization of my sinful self.

It was easy for me to identify this experience with being "born anew".


HankD

 

[pinoybaptist]

hey, thanks for the reply, HanKD.
I appreciate it.
Now, do you think because you, personally, understand the gospel, and obey it, then the atonement was only for you, and those like you, who do the same ?
Let me explain why I ask this.
My view of limited atonement is that the blood was shed for the elect, and only for them, and that this shed blood, both of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, and the Lamb slain at Calvary in time, covered and atoned for the sins only of the elect (these being those whose names are in the Lamb's book of life), regardless of whether they were born and lived in time before, during or after the cross, and regardless of their social, cultural, geographical, and credal circumstances.
However, the view which I read from one of my fellow PB's (not on this board) is that Limited Atonement is proven when someone obeys the gospel here in time.
That excludes anyone, even the elect (from what I understand about the comment), who does not hear the gospel, or obey the gospel.
And so I'd like feedback from my fellow PB's here on this board, even those who simply lurk around, as well as those who say they hold to the Reformed view of the doctrine of grace.
Again, thanks for the response.

addendum: I DO NOT CARE TO HEAR FROM THOSE WHOSE HATRED OF THE DOCTRINE OF GRACE AND OF CALVINISM IS SUCH THAT THEY COMMENT WITH SO MUCH SARCASM IT DRIPS THROUGH THE LETTERS ON MY SCREEN. THEY CAN KEEP AWAY, FOR ALL I CARE.

 

[kyredneck]

I forgot where it was but there's something I read somewhere that since not all the elect will be benefited with timely blessings because not all will obey the gospel then LIMITED ATONEMENT is proven......

God did not redeem with a strong hand every individual from the House of Bondage, no, He made a clear distinction between the Hebrew and the Egyptian.

Very, very few of those that He redeemed with a strong hand from the House of Bondage believed and obeyed God to go in and possess the Land of Milk & Honey, no, with most of them God was not well pleased, and He swore in His wrath that they would not enter into His rest. He 'shut the door' on them, Moses and Aaron included, and caused them to wander in the Wilderness for the remainder of their lives.

Yet during all their wandering/chastening in the Wilderness He still yet gave them shade by day and light by night, He fed them manna, gave them water, their clothes never wore out, their feet didn't blister, etc., He was with them always.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

God did not redeem with a strong hand every individual from the House of Bondage, no, He made a clear distinction between the Hebrew and the Egyptian.

Very, very few of those that He redeemed with a strong hand from the House of Bondage believed and obeyed God to go in and possess the Land of Milk & Honey, no, with most of them God was not well pleased, and He swore in His wrath that they would not enter into His rest. He 'shut the door' on them, Moses and Aaron included, and caused them to wander in the Wilderness for the remainder of their lives.

Yet during all their wandering/chastening in the Wilderness He still yet gave them shade by day and light by night, He fed them manna, gave them water, their clothes never wore out, their feet didn't blister, etc., He was with them always.

I dont know, should I answer him (my brother Penoy) & risk being called a Hyper Calvinist?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Yea.....what the heck...... most of us Old Schoolers believe that our faith has nothing to do with our eternal destiny but everything to do with the benefits to be had from obedience to the gospel here, now, in this realm.

As you were saying, God Himself has settled all eternal aspects of our salvation. It's up to us to believe that, to rest in it, trust Him, adhere to Him, rely on Him, love Him, love our neighbor, and enjoy the table He has set before us. And this is where I stand....firm in that belief.

 

[HankD]

hey, thanks for the reply, HanKD.
I appreciate it.
Now, do you think because you, personally, understand the gospel, and obey it, then the atonement was only for you, and those like you, who do the same ?

I don't know. Logically a case can be made from what I said - that the atonement is limited to the "elect".

But a case can also be made from scripture which says the opposite, that it is available to all.

I think we can all agree that there is no limit to the power of the blood of Christ to take away sin both in kind and number.
This is why I shrink from "limited atonement" especially in light of John 3:16.

We are told to test the spirits.

If a person's life is producing the fruit of the Spirit (which the flesh cannot produce) then in my mind that outweighs the C&A controversy concerning whether one holds to limited or universal atonement.

If you held a gun to my head I would go with universal atonement but limited appropriation.


HankD

 

[Jacob_Elliott]

hey, thanks for the reply, HanKD.
I appreciate it.
Now, do you think because you, personally, understand the gospel, and obey it, then the atonement was only for you, and those like you, who do the same ?
Let me explain why I ask this.
My view of limited atonement is that the blood was shed for the elect, and only for them, and that this shed blood, both of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, and the Lamb slain at Calvary in time, covered and atoned for the sins only of the elect (these being those whose names are in the Lamb's book of life), regardless of whether they were born and lived in time before, during or after the cross, and regardless of their social, cultural, geographical, and credal circumstances.
However, the view which I read from one of my fellow PB's (not on this board) is that Limited Atonement is proven when someone obeys the gospel here in time.
That excludes anyone, even the elect (from what I understand about the comment), who does not hear the gospel, or obey the gospel.
And so I'd like feedback from my fellow PB's here on this board, even those who simply lurk around, as well as those who say they hold to the Reformed view of the doctrine of grace.
Again, thanks for the response.

addendum: I DO NOT CARE TO HEAR FROM THOSE WHOSE HATRED OF THE DOCTRINE OF GRACE AND OF CALVINISM IS SUCH THAT THEY COMMENT WITH SO MUCH SARCASM IT DRIPS THROUGH THE LETTERS ON MY SCREEN. THEY CAN KEEP AWAY, FOR ALL I CARE.

I agree with you, but I believe that God will make away for His elect to hear and believe

 

[convicted1]

God did not redeem with a strong hand every individual from the House of Bondage, no, He made a clear distinction between the Hebrew and the Egyptian.

Very, very few of those that He redeemed with a strong hand from the House of Bondage believed and obeyed God to go in and possess the Land of Milk & Honey, no, with most of them God was not well pleased, and He swore in His wrath that they would not enter into His rest. He 'shut the door' on them, Moses and Aaron included, and caused them to wander in the Wilderness for the remainder of their lives.

Yet during all their wandering/chastening in the Wilderness He still yet gave them shade by day and light by night, He fed them manna, gave them water, their clothes never wore out, their feet didn't blister, etc., He was with them always.

I had never thought of it this way, but it's true. God told them that none but Joshua and Caleb would enter into that promised land. And He still made them provisions.

 

[convicted1]

I agree with you, but I believe that God will make away for His elect to hear and believe

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[pinoybaptist]

God did not redeem with a strong hand every individual from the House of Bondage, no, He made a clear distinction between the Hebrew and the Egyptian.

Very, very few of those that He redeemed with a strong hand from the House of Bondage believed and obeyed God to go in and possess the Land of Milk & Honey, no, with most of them God was not well pleased, and He swore in His wrath that they would not enter into His rest. He 'shut the door' on them, Moses and Aaron included, and caused them to wander in the Wilderness for the remainder of their lives.

Yet during all their wandering/chastening in the Wilderness He still yet gave them shade by day and light by night, He fed them manna, gave them water, their clothes never wore out, their feet didn't blister, etc., He was with them always.

I can understand what you're saying, brother.
Gospel salvation is not for all because not all will obey therefore not all will benefit from the natural results of obedience.
However, my question is about the scope of the atonement.
does it cover ALL the redeemed from the house of bondage, whether obedient to the gospel, or does it not ?
(I am looking for the article. I remember now that I saw it in one of the PB publications. once I find it I will quote it here, without mentioning the author).

 

[pinoybaptist]

I don't know. Logically a case can be made from what I said - that the atonement is limited to the "elect"........

HankD

well, yes, and I agree to that.
but the thing is with what I read, IF I UNDERSTOOD IT CORRECTLY (maybe I was wrong, once I find the article I can quote it with no errors), atonement is limited WITHIN, as opposed to "TO", the elect.
Like, if you're not obedient to the gospel here in time, then the atonement does not apply to you.
This is something new to me.
But like I said, once I locate the article, I'll be a little more accurate.

 

[kyredneck]

...However, my question is about the scope of the atonement.
does it cover ALL the redeemed from the house of bondage, whether obedient to the gospel, or does it not ?

The type holds true, even after all the wickedness Israel had done in the wilderness after leaving Egypt (unbelief, disobedience, murmuring, idolatry, fornication, rebellion, etc.), and even with Balaam wanting so badly to curse Israel, God made Balaam to declare:

He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob; Neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel: Jehovah his God is with him, And the shout of a king is among them. Nu 23:21
(Blessed is the man to whom, the Lord will not reckon sin. Ro 4:8)

But the Exodus Generation still yet reaped (IN THIS TEMPORAL REALM) for their wickedness after being redeemed from Egypt, they wandered for forty years in the waste places when they could have possessed the promised land.

 

[salzer mtn]

Am I understanding you PB right that there are people here on earth that have the atonement of Christ blood on their soul's yet they come from the womb and go to the grave and never know it and further more never care for it ?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Am I understanding you PB right that there are people here on earth that have the atonement of Christ blood on their soul's yet they come from the womb and go to the grave and never know it and further more never care for it ?

What do you mean by "never care for it"....are you implying rejecting the HS calling / regeneration?

 

[salzer mtn]

What do you mean by "never care for it"....are you implying rejecting the HS calling / regeneration?

The meaning of my question is, from what I am reading in this thread is there are people that will go to heaven un-aware they were bought with the blood of Christ and therefore lived all their lifetime as the world does having no interest in the things of God.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Am I understanding you PB right that there are people here on earth that have the atonement of Christ blood on their soul's yet they come from the womb and go to the grave and never know it and further more never care for it ?

there ARE people that have been atoned for, born redeemed, are and have been regenerate, but may never hear the gospel, be instructed in the gospel, and partake of the blessings of gospel obedience.

because "faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" is a principle that stands even for the elect of all ages whose eternal salvation was entirely PASSIVE all of the Lord and by the Lord, none of them nor by them, in any way. Unless of course, God did not do his electing from the foundation of the world, as the Bible implies, or the "foundation of the world" began when the preaching of the gospel began and the requirement of obedience to it began.

now, since 'faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God" Paul asks a logical question, regarding the elect among the Jews who "have a zeal for God, but NOT according to knowledge" (Romans 10:1-2) which is why following his arguments linearly he asks "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed ? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard ? and how shall they hear without a preacher ? And how shall they preach , except they be sent ? as it is written , How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith , Lord, who hath believed our report? (Romans 10:13-16), and notice he was not referring to the "chosen national people of his time" but to Old Testament Israel since in the next verseverse 16 he quotes Isaiah.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

God did not redeem with a strong hand every individual from the House of Bondage, no, He made a clear distinction between the Hebrew and the Egyptian.

Very, very few of those that He redeemed with a strong hand from the House of Bondage believed and obeyed God to go in and possess the Land of Milk & Honey, no, with most of them God was not well pleased, and He swore in His wrath that they would not enter into His rest. He 'shut the door' on them, Moses and Aaron included, and caused them to wander in the Wilderness for the remainder of their lives.

Yet during all their wandering/chastening in the Wilderness He still yet gave them shade by day and light by night, He fed them manna, gave them water, their clothes never wore out, their feet didn't blister, etc., He was with them always.

So you're saying Moses and Aaron were denied access to the land were also denied access to heaven? Am I understanding that correctly? Obviously the disobedient were denied, but are you counting Moses and Aaron among the "disobedient"?

 

[convicted1]

ETA:I have no idea how this-----> ended up in the "post title" at the very top of this post.

So you're saying Moses and Aaron were denied access to the land were also denied access to heaven? Am I understanding that correctly? Obviously the disobedient were denied, but are you counting Moses and Aaron among the "disobedient"?

God told Moses to speak to the rock, and it would bring forth his water. Moses disobeyed and smote it...TWICE. He did not do what God commanded him to do, yet, God blessed them with the provision of water. God told him that none would enter into the promised land. Moses, being 120 y/o, his eyes not dim, God took him to the top of the mountain, let him view the promised land. Then God took and buried him. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and David, when they died, their eyes were dim, and werely very sickly, too. Moses appeared to be in very good health when God took and buried him.

Numbers 20:7-11

7 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,

8 Take the rod, and gather thou the assembly together, thou, and Aaron thy brother, and speak ye unto the rock before their eyes; and it shall give forth his water, and thou shalt bring forth to them water out of the rock: so thou shalt give the congregation and their beasts drink.

9 And Moses took the rod from before the Lord, as he commanded him.

10 And Moses and Aaron gathered the congregation together before the rock, and he said unto them, Hear now, ye rebels; must we fetch you water out of this rock?

11 And Moses lifted up his hand, and with his rod he smote the rock twice: and the water came out abundantly, and the congregation drank, and their beasts also.

12 And the Lord spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.

Moses asked, "must we fetch water for you out of this rock"? It seems they were taking credit for it, or so it appears. Either way, the rejected God's command, paid for it here, yet they, Moses and Aaron are "resting from their labors".

 

[salzer mtn]

So you're saying Moses and Aaron were denied access to the land were also denied access to heaven? Am I understanding that correctly? Obviously the disobedient were denied, but are you counting Moses and Aaron among the "disobedient"?

I think what he is saying is that the Jews although redeemed and were brought out of the bondage of Egypt were disobedient and God caused them to wander around in the wilderness for forty years till that generation died and they didn't inherit the promised land which was the land of Israel, Moses and Aaron included. I think he is also making a comparison to the land of Israel as gospel salvation which everyone that has eternal salvation like the disobedient Jews, Moses and Aaron will not experience. The PB see's gospel salvation and eternal salvation as two different salvations.