Honest Question: Why do we place a stigma on certain Sins?

[Zaac]

I ask this because I keep reading off the cuff comments about a particular sin for which we don't create topics. The latest comment referred to people as queers and termed their lifestyle as sickening.

I understand why people say it.

But

Why don't we say that about every sinful lifestyle?
Why don't we say that about the folks who refuse to pray for the President and other leaders?
Why don't we say that about the folks popping prescribed pills everyday?
Why don't we say that about the folks who don't share the Gospel?

Why do we constantly insist on denigrating folks because of their attempt to deal with their brokenness while ignoring the heinousness of the sins we commit to deal with our own?

Just some thoughts.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

I ask this because I keep reading off the cuff comments about a particular sin for which we don't create topics. The latest comment referred to people as queers and termed their lifestyle as sickening.

I understand why people say it.

But

Why don't we say that about every sinful lifestyle?
Why don't we say that about the folks who refuse to pray for the President and other leaders?
Why don't we say that about the folks popping prescribed pills everyday?
Why don't we say that about the folks who don't share the Gospel?

Why do we constantly insist on denigrating folks because of their attempt to deal with their brokenness while ignoring the heinousness of the sins we commit to deal with our own?

Just some thoughts.

You know of any other sin which has organized advocacy groups, declared as good, being blessed, and as one Episcopal bishop has described it, a vehicle of God's grace? When wife beating, alcoholism, drug abuse, etc., are given this status, I'll concede you have a point, but until then.......

 

[Zaac]

You know of any other sin which has organized advocacy groups, declared as good, being blessed, and as one Episcopal bishop has described it, a vehicle of God's grace? When wife beating, alcoholism, drug abuse, etc., are given this status, I'll concede you have a point, but until then.......

When does what a sinner does dictate how we treat them and their sin? Has not Christ already set the example as to how we are supposed to treat people? So why have we taken it upon ourselves to speak and treat those who commit certain sins in such a wicked way?

 

[Bronconagurski]

When does what a sinner does dictate how we treat them and their sin? Has not Christ already set the example as to how we are supposed to treat people? So why have we taken it upon ourselves to speak and treat those who commit certain sins in such a wicked way?

Jesus said that when people have been warned by the preaching of God's word and continue to reject His truth, things will be worse for them.
Mark 6:10-11 (NKJV)
10 Also He said to them, "In whatever place you enter a house, stay there till you depart from that place.
11 And whoever will not receive you nor hear you, when you depart from there, shake off the dust under your feet as a testimony against them. Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!"

In the above scripture, Jesus is giving His disciples the command to declare judgment upon those who would not receive them, nor hear them. This is pretty bold stuff, but degrees of punishement is taught in the scriptures, and the homosexual crowd in this country has been warned more than anyone, I would say. Yes, some is hateful and I don't recommend using what I perceive to be vulgar speech, but the homosexual act (they are not a minority group like they claim) is direct rebellion agains God and His plan for mankind, pure and simple.

 

[Don]

The difference is sinners and unrepentent sinners. As was pointed out, when sin is called good, acceptable, and even something to aspire to, then those that hold the truth must shout out that it is not good, acceptable, or something to aspire to.

Where I think Zaac is trying to determine the line is between the sin and the sinner. If we don't agree that homosexuality is a sin, then there can't be agreement on how to deal with unrepentent homosexuals.

 

[Zaac]

Jesus said that when people have been warned by the preaching of God's word and continue to reject His truth, things will be worse for them.
Mark 6:10-11 (NKJV)
10 Also He said to them, "In whatever place you enter a house, stay there till you depart from that place.
11 And whoever will not receive you nor hear you, when you depart from there, shake off the dust under your feet as a testimony against them. Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!"

In the above scripture, Jesus is giving His disciples the command to declare judgment upon those who would not receive them, nor hear them. This is pretty bold stuff, but degrees of punishement is taught in the scriptures, and the homosexual crowd in this country has been warned more than anyone, I would say. Yes, some is hateful and I don't recommend using what I perceive to be vulgar speech, but the homosexual act (they are not a minority group like they claim) is direct rebellion agains God and His plan for mankind, pure and simple.

Not the Gospel and righteous judgment. I'm referring to the name calling and the portrayal that their sin is worse than ours.

 

[Zaac]

The difference is sinners and unrepentent sinners. As was pointed out, when sin is called good, acceptable, and even something to aspire to, then those that hold the truth must shout out that it is not good, acceptable, or something to aspire to.

Where I think Zaac is trying to determine the line is between the sin and the sinner. If we don't agree that homosexuality is a sin, then there can't be agreement on how to deal with unrepentent homosexuals.

And there indeed shouldn't be any confusion about homosexual acts being sinful. But why do sinners have to hear things like "your lifestyle is sickening". And I'm just using that as an example.

 

[Bronconagurski]

And there indeed shouldn't be any confusion about homosexual acts being sinful. But why do sinners have to hear things like "your lifestyle is sickening". And I'm just using that as an example.

From direct experience I have learned that no matter how you tell them their lifestyle is sinful, they hate you for saying it. What they want is a pass. I know this for a fact.

 

[Revmitchell]

Why do we constantly insist on denigrating folks because of their attempt to deal with their brokenness while ignoring the heinousness of the sins we commit to deal with our own?

Who is doing this? Who is we? And please give a specific example of this for clarity.

 

[Zaac]

From direct experience I have learned that no matter how you tell them their lifestyle is sinful, they hate you for saying it. What they want is a pass. I know this for a fact.

So why are we pointing out their sinful lifestyles as opposed to everybody else's sinful lifestyle? Does any man have a sinless lifestyle?

Christians have come to use "sinful lifestyle" in a very derogatory way, and it is evident to these people that we don't think our lifestyles fall into that category.

They have a life that contains sin just like the rest of us.

 

[saturneptune]

Zaac,
Since you asked an honest question, I am going to attempt to answer it without any reference of the past, which I have handled very badly in relation to you, and hope this post sets us on the right course.

This has been mentioned in many threads, but for starters, lets look at the subject as it exists in some local Baptist churches, without reference to which type of Baptist. In many churches, the subjects of dancing, drinking, gambling, smoking, TV, movies have been created as sins, when in fact, there is no sin basis in Scripture. At the same time, the same church ignores gossip, as it is practiced freely. It is one of the most destructive sins to the unity of the local church and the cause of the Gospel. One of the most pitiful scenes I have ever seen was a 300 pound church member stuffing his face full of food so fast at a pot luck, one could hardly understand what he was saying, but, if one listened closely, he was talking about a fellow church member buying lottery tickets.

If one has followed the threads lately, this has gotten so out of control, there was one thread implying people with tatoos were heathens, and another that stated that the intensity of singing a hymn was a reflection of a person's salvation. This whole mindset shouts loudly that someone does not understand the Gospel, or how the Lord views sin.

Now, on the subject you brought up about homosexual activity, why is it a stigma? Well, unlike dancing, smoking, etc, it is without a doubt a sin, and a disguisting one. The reason it is a stigma above other sins is because most of us do not engage in that sin. Yet, how many have cheated on their spouses either physically, or how Jesus mentions in Matthew when he talks about lusting after a woman. My guess is that those males guilty of that sin approach 100%. In the eyes of the Lord, it is no more a noble act than the most revolting homosexual act one can imagine. Yet, in our warped set of standards, we give the lustful thoughts a pass, and condemn the homosexual to hell for eternity.

Zaac, you mention another sin that really strikes a chord with me, those who have been saved ten, twenty, forty, or fifty years, that have never gone on visitation, been on a mission trip, or bothered to tell one person about the Good News of Jesus Christ. They have sat on their dead butts for decades and not lifted one finger for the Lord. They are usually the same ones that never help with church meals, drive the van, visit the sick, help the poor or encourage anyone.

In summary, we set up stigmas to make ourselves holier than thou. There is no excuse for it. I know it takes other forms in other denominations, but we are Baptists, and this is where our problems are. Every pastor should be charged with knocking down all of these barriers, including the power cliques in his local church.

Zaac, this is as honest as I know how to answer the question, and hope you will take this as an end to our disagreements so we can behave like Christian brothers.

 

[Bronconagurski]

So why are we pointing out their sinful lifestyles as opposed to everybody else's sinful lifestyle? Does any man have a sinless lifestyle?

Christians have come to use "sinful lifestyle" in a very derogatory way, and it is evident to these people that we don't think our lifestyles fall into that category.

They have a life that contains sin just like the rest of us.

I know what I have done, but tell me, what would you do when one looks you in the eye and says that he is a Christian and that his lifestyle is not a sin? That's where the rubber meets the road. It is one thing to be guilty of certain sins, as we all are. It's quite another to make a practice of a sinful lifestyle. I would tell someone the same thing that gets drunk all the time, or steals all the time, or shacks up and says it is ok, or......well, you get my drift.

 

[Zaac]

Zaac,
Since you asked an honest question, I am going to attempt to answer it without any reference of the past, which I have handled very badly in relation to you, and hope this post sets us on the right course.

This has been mentioned in many threads, but for starters, lets look at the subject as it exists in some local Baptist churches, without reference to which type of Baptist. In many churches, the subjects of dancing, drinking, gambling, smoking, TV, movies have been created as sins, when in fact, there is no sin basis in Scripture. At the same time, the same church ignores gossip, as it is practiced freely. It is one of the most destructive sins to the unity of the local church and the cause of the Gospel. One of the most pitiful scenes I have ever seen was a 300 pound church member stuffing his face full of food so fast at a pot luck, one could hardly understand what he was saying, but, if one listened closely, he was talking about a fellow church member buying lottery tickets.

If one has followed the threads lately, this has gotten so out of control, there was one thread implying people with tatoos were heathens, and another that stated that the intensity of singing a hymn was a reflection of a person's salvation. This whole mindset shouts loudly that someone does not understand the Gospel, or how the Lord views sin.

And SN, that is exactly what I mean. When will we start to see people in their brokenness as Christ sees them? When will the Church start viewing these people as people in need of redemption or restoration instead of seemingly taking away their hope with our words because we've already been saved and want everyone to think we totally got it together? God help us to hurt for the ones You died for.

Now, on the subject you brought up about homosexual activity, why is it a stigma? Well, unlike dancing, smoking, etc, it is without a doubt a sin, and a disguisting one. The reason it is a stigma above other sins is because most of us do not engage in that sin.

Exactly. But I would add that all sin is disgusting to a Holy God.:thumbs:

Yet, how many have cheated on their spouses either physically, or how Jesus mentions in Matthew when he talks about lusting after a woman. My guess is that those males guilty of that sin approach 100%. In the eyes of the Lord, it is no more a noble act than the most revolting homosexual act one can imagine. Yet, in our warped set of standards, we give the lustful thoughts a pass, and condemn the homosexual to hell for eternity.

Precisely.

Zaac, you mention another sin that really strikes a chord with me, those who have been saved ten, twenty, forty, or fifty years, that have never gone on visitation, been on a mission trip, or bothered to tell one person about the Good News of Jesus Christ. They have sat on their dead butts for decades and not lifted one finger for the Lord. They are usually the same ones that never help with church meals, drive the van, visit the sick, help the poor or encourage anyone.

In summary, we set up stigmas to make ourselves holier than thou. There is no excuse for it. I know it takes other forms in other denominations, but we are Baptists, and this is where our problems are. Every pastor should be charged with knocking down all of these barriers, including the power cliques in his local church.

AMEN!!!

Zaac, this is as honest as I know how to answer the question, and hope you will take this as an end to our disagreements so we can behave like Christian brothers.

:1_grouphug:

 

[Zaac]

I know what I have done, but tell me, what would you do when one looks you in the eye and says that he is a Christian and that his lifestyle is not a sin?

I'd tell him you're absolutely correct. Your lifestyle IS NOT a sin. Lifestyles aren't sinful. Lives are. And my life is just as sinful as his. But if you're committing homosexual acts, in accordance with God's word, that is sin.

That's where the rubber meets the road. It is one thing to be guilty of certain sins, as we all are. It's quite another to make a practice of a sinful lifestyle.

But we've all got a sinful lifestyle and we've all made a practice of sinning in it. They have chosen to deal with their brokenness through repeating the same sin.

I would tell someone the same thing that gets drunk all the time, or steals all the time, or shacks up and says it is ok, or......well, you get my drift.

Do you lust? Do you covet? Do you tell white lies? Do you cheat at anything?

If you consistently did these things, would you term your lifestyle as sinful too?

 

[Bronconagurski]

I'd tell him you're absolutely correct. Your lifestyle IS NOT a sin. Lifestyles aren't sinful. Lives are. And my life is just as sinful as his. But if you're committing homosexual acts, in accordance with God's word, that is sin.



But we've all got a sinful lifestyle and we've all made a practice of sinning in it. They have chosen to deal with their brokenness through repeating the same sin.



Do you lust? Do you covet? Do you tell white lies? Do you cheat at anything?

If you consistently did these things, would you term your lifestyle as sinful too?

No, you are missing the point entirely. Of course I have done some of those things, but I was convicted and repented and asked God to help me not to do them. That is the difference. These people don''t see what they do as a sin. So they don't think they need to repent. And, yes, it most certainly is a practicing lifestyle.

1 John 3:8-10 (NASB)
8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

"Whosoever is born of God does not practice sin!"
Why? Because he has a new nature within him, and that new nature cannot sin. John calls this new nature God's "seed."

So don't put true Christians in the same state as lost sinners, because they are not. Yes, all sin, but some practice this lifestyle of sin with no repentence or remorse. If they can do this and get by with it, then I am doubtful they are saved, no matter what the sin.

Hebrews 12:5-11 (GenevaBible)
5 And ye have forgotten the consolation, which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not the chastening of the Lord, neither faint when thou art rebuked of him.
6 For whom the Lord loveth, he chasteneth: and he scourgeth every son that he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God offered himself unto you as unto sons: for what son is it whom the father chasteneth not?
8 If therefore ye be without correction, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9 Moreover we have had the fathers of our bodies which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: should we not much rather be in subjection unto the father of spirits, that we might live?
10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure, but he chastened us for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11 Now no chastising for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: but afterward, it bringeth the quiet fruit of righteousness, unto them which are thereby exercised.
When a person receives Christ as his Saviour, tremendous spiritual changes take place in him. He is given a new standing before God, being accepted as righteous in God's sight. This new standing is called "justification." It never changes and is never lost.
The new Christian is also given a new position: he is set apart for God's own purposes to live for His glory. This new position is called "sanctification," and it has a way of changing from day to day. On some days we are much closer to Christ and obey Him much more readily.
Bible Exposition Commentary - Bible Exposition Commentary – Be Real (1 John).

 

[Yeshua1]

I ask this because I keep reading off the cuff comments about a particular sin for which we don't create topics. The latest comment referred to people as queers and termed their lifestyle as sickening.

I understand why people say it.

But

Why don't we say that about every sinful lifestyle?
Why don't we say that about the folks who refuse to pray for the President and other leaders?
Why don't we say that about the folks popping prescribed pills everyday?
Why don't we say that about the folks who don't share the Gospel?

Why do we constantly insist on denigrating folks because of their attempt to deal with their brokenness while ignoring the heinousness of the sins we commit to deal with our own?

Just some thoughts.

Sexual sins are a special category to the Lord, for IF one is claiming to be saved yet commiting fornication/adultery/homosexuality, they are treating jesus as a Pimp!

And homosexual lifestyle is ONLY sin that seems tio be getting 'acceptance" among even church members today!

paul said in Romans that lifestyle is abominable, and that thsoe who actively practice and promote do grave sinning, worthy of even death!

NOT saying someone with tempations with it, or one fighting thu it are such, its those claiming "God made me that way!"

 

[Zaac]

No, you are missing the point entirely. Of course I have done some of those things, but I was convicted and repented and asked God to help me not to do them. That is the difference. These people don''t see what they do as a sin. So they don't think they need to repent.

And how does the Church help them to get to the point of repentance by telling them their lifestyle is sickening, disgusting, etc?

As SN pointed out, there are a lot of extremely obese Baptists. Do they see their greed and gluttony as a sin of which to be repented? You got to wonder because the congregations keep getting fatter.

I have yet to hear Baptists refer to the lifestyles of all the Baptist gluttons as sickening or disgusting.

And again, I believe it's just as SN said. We can throw all sorts of non-Christ like phrasing at their sin because it's THEIRS and not ours.

And, yes, it most certainly is a practicing lifestyle.

And where in God's word does He speak to a lifestyle as sinful? People sin.Lifestyles do not.

They may be sinning. But they are living a life just like you and I.

1 John 3:8-10 (NASB)
8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

"Whosoever is born of God does not practice sin!"
Why? Because he has a new nature within him, and that new nature cannot sin. John calls this new nature God's "seed."

You find no qualms from me about God's word.

So don't put true Christians in the same state as lost sinners, because they are not. Yes, all sin, but some practice this lifestyle of sin with no repentence or remorse. If they can do this and get by with it, then I am doubtful they are saved, no matter what the sin.

I put true Christians in the same place as everyone else living life: living it while continuing to sin. And this is what Baptists seem to keep missing. God has not saved us to make folks feel like their sin is so bad that they are beyond being saved too. He saved us and left us here to go through the sanctification process so that the unsaved can see that yes I still sin. But God has changed my desires of wanting to keep committing the same sin again and again. And he can change your desires too.

But this whole practicing a sinful lifestyle and telling folks their lifestyle is sickening simply is not of God.

Our sin is the exact same as their sin. The difference is Jesus.

Lifestyles aren't sinful. People are.

When a person receives Christ as his Saviour, tremendous spiritual changes take place in him. He is given a new standing before God, being accepted as righteous in God's sight. This new standing is called "justification." It never changes and is never lost.
The new Christian is also given a new position: he is set apart for God's own purposes to live for His glory. This new position is called "sanctification," and it has a way of changing from day to day. On some days we are much closer to Christ and obey Him much more readily.
Bible Exposition Commentary - Bible Exposition Commentary – Be Real (1 John).

But we still unrepentantly sin at times because we often do things that we don't even think is sin.

 

[Zaac]

Sexual sins are a special category to the Lord, for IF one is claiming to be saved yet commiting fornication/adultery/homosexuality, they are treating jesus as a Pimp!

So any saved person who looks at a man or woman with lust in his heart is treating Jesus as a pimp?

And homosexual lifestyle is ONLY sin that seems tio be getting 'acceptance" among even church members today!

What on earth is a homosexual lifestyle?

paul said in Romans that lifestyle is abominable, and that thsoe who actively practice and promote do grave sinning, worthy of even death!

Paul spoke to specific acts as being abominable. He didn't speak to a lifestyle.

NOT saying someone with tempations with it, or one fighting thu it are such, its those claiming "God made me that way!"

This last statement appears to be opinion. what do you do with the folks who say God made them that way but they are still gonna refrain from committing homosexual acts?

 

[Oldtimer]

Zaac, aren't you being as judgemental as you are accusing others of being?

Zaac, aren't you playing word games with "lifestyles"?

Would your replies be worded, as they are, if the main topic of conversation was about the perverted "lifestyle" of peodifles who prey on little children?

Bronconagurski wrote:
So don't put true Christians in the same state as lost sinners, because they are not. Yes, all sin, but some practice this lifestyle of sin with no repentence or remorse. If they can do this and get by with it, then I am doubtful they are saved, no matter what the sin.

You said:
I put true Christians in the same place as everyone else living life: living it while continuing to sin. And this is what Baptists seem to keep missing. God has not saved us to make folks feel like their sin is so bad that they are beyond being saved too. He saved us and left us here to go through the sanctification process so that the unsaved can see that yes I still sin. But God has changed my desires of wanting to keep committing the same sin again and again. And he can change your desires too.

The point that you are continuing to ignore is that a true Christian is repentent and when they fail they are ridden with guilt. A true Christian, even with their failures, does reflect God's grace in their lives. Scriptures tell us over and over again, you will know them by their fruit.

Why do you single out "Baptists"? What is your point in trying to sterotype ALL Baptists, as if you are the only one who understands the "proper way" to witness and minister to the lost?

In closing, please let me ask you one more question. Would you vote to approve membership in your church of a gay couple who state they WILL continue to live together in a marital relationship? Yes or no, please.

 

[Crabtownboy]

You know of any other sin which has organized advocacy groups, declared as good, being blessed, and as one Episcopal bishop has described it, a vehicle of God's grace? When wife beating, alcoholism, drug abuse, etc., are given this status, I'll concede you have a point, but until then.......

1. Some sins are popular, so they are not mentioned, at least not often.

2. Some sins are unpopular and are mentioned often ... especially those we do not engage in.

3. Popular and unpopular sins change from era to era.

4. Some sins are not recognized as sin ... thus they are not mentioned.