Zaac
Well-Known Member
See THIS is what I mean. You just exposed what's in your heart. So the conversation with you is finished.
I guess in some churches that's written off as Christian love.
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Honest Question: Why do we place a stigma on certain Sins?
- Thread starter Zaac
- Start date
See THIS is what I mean. You just exposed what's in your heart. So the conversation with you is finished.
I guess in some churches that's written off as Christian love.
Zaac
Well-Known Member
What is forgiven sin? How is sin forgiven? Who's sins are forgiven?
How does repent come into play with a born-again believer in Christ?
And, as to a rating system, isn't there a sin that cannot be forgiven?
Further, when I stand before Jesus to be judged for rewards and punishment will everything I've done carry equal weight, positive or negative, as the case may be? Will telling a little white lie to help someone get through a difficult time in their lives receive the same punishment in heaven as committing named abominations to God?
Why are certain sins mentioned over and over in the scriptures, referenced with descriptions, as such as "abomination"? While, if I understand correctly, other sins do not carry the same degree of contempt from God? Does God call failure to fully honor our parents an abomination? Please don't misunderstand. God abhors all sin. Yet, from a layman's view, He seems to put special emphasis on about a half dozen or so specific sins out of an untold number, that can be committed, when Christians don't follow the biblical basis for the Golden Rule.
I've been puzzled for a while, as you've made this comparison before, if memory serves. Can't speak for anyone else's church or beliefs. Gossip is as soundly condemed, if not more so, than excesses relating to the other items that you mentioned.
Further, how do true believers let any sin "run rampant"? Every sin that I can think of is running rampant in this country and in this society. Idol worship is apparent everywhere. Thousands of babies are being murdered everyday. When I turn on the TV in a little while to watch local news, there'll probably be more killings reported. Probably more reports of drunk drivers taking lives of others. Greed is everywhere. From the greed for power in the highest offices of this land to the driver of a white van who is kicking in front doors in our area.
As a born again Christian, how am I "letting" all of this happen? I speak out against abortion, yet babies continue to die. I speak out against idol worship, yet more groves and high places are being built. Speaking out against "gossip" even within my own family hasn't stopped it. Because it hasn't stopped, according to your words means that I'm "letting" gossip thrive -- run rampant.
I'm afraid that I don't understand your premise here. And especially since Zaac agreed with you. :flower:
If comparision has no merit why have you specifically mentioned homosexuality, drinking, dancing, gambling, and gossip? Didn't you make a comparison relating to the last 4?
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Nit-picking about words isn't progressing the discussion.
A man and a woman who live together without being married used to be called "living in sin"; they lived as if married without being married. As such, their "lifestyle" was sinful. The same can be said of married couples who regularly engage in and even live their lives around extra-marital activities.
In other words, "lifestyle" simply refers to the way we live our lives, whether we're living in unrepentent sin. The lifestyle itself is not sin; continuing to live in sin and attempting to justify it is what leads to describing something as a "lifestyle."
So what was this thread supposed to be about? Christians being harsh towards sinners? Or what?
A man and a woman who live together without being married used to be called "living in sin"; they lived as if married without being married. As such, their "lifestyle" was sinful. The same can be said of married couples who regularly engage in and even live their lives around extra-marital activities.
In other words, "lifestyle" simply refers to the way we live our lives, whether we're living in unrepentent sin. The lifestyle itself is not sin; continuing to live in sin and attempting to justify it is what leads to describing something as a "lifestyle."
So what was this thread supposed to be about? Christians being harsh towards sinners? Or what?
Zaac
Well-Known Member
Nit-picking about words is what causes damage. People's words have an effect.
If a lifestyle could ever be sinful, it didn't just start because two people moved in together.
Then call it an unrepentant sinful lifestyle. Because everyone lives their lives sinfully.
Words do mean something otherwise folks wouldn't keep referring to their lifestyles as sinful. And the obvious implication is that the lifestyle of the person who isn't committing the sin that they are isn't sinful.
We may be saints, but we still sin. We just need to start remembering what God saved us from and how patient He was to forgive us as He waited for us to "get" it and turn to HIM in our brokenness instead of the things of the world like gluttony and homosexual acts.
quantumfaith
Active Member
They do not have the love of the Christ in them.
Gregory Perry Sr.
Active Member
Here It Is...
Okay Zaac...Here it is.....since I am probably the guy who made the comments you mentioned above I guess I ought to comment. To refer to these folks as queers is far more accurate than calling them "gay" since that is a word which their "movement" co-opted to try and "soften" their image. I once had a young lady I knew who was a lesbian tell me that "there is nothing gay about her lifestyle" I tried to reach her for Christ but to no avail. In using that word they have ruined a perfectly good english word. I have had, over the years, some casual acquaintance with several people of that "persuasion" and it is a fact that they jokingly refer to themselves as "queer" so it is not at all improper to call them that. Secondly....I don't wish to be crude, particularly in a public forum...but if you think through the unnatural aspects of their lifestyle and the fact that they are attempting to force it on US as a legitimate way of life....then yes....it most definitely is completely unbiblical, unnatural, abominable and sickening. Think it through. They want to force us to have to legally regard them as legitimate....and natural. If you think they aren't blunt and "in your face" about this stuff just witness the well-documented events of most any "gay-pride" parade coming to a city near you! We had the "SoulForce" group that blatantly demonstrated in our city right in front of Bob Jones University.
As to the rest of the "sins" you listed above.....you are absolutely RIGHT. We as professed Bible-believers DO need to be introspective and look inside and do some serious "house-cleaning". These things are just as bad in the respect that they hinder or even destroy our personal fellowship with our God and our fellow-believers....not to mention that they are a terrible testimony to the lost in this world that are watching us. We need to come clean and then maybe we might experience the blessing of personal revival and have the power of God on our lives and our witness for Christ.
The big difference though is that the other things listed above are mostly INTERNAL between us and God. The "gay"thing is VERY public and it is a matter of open perversion that is being forced on us by our own government and a very vocal group of sexual activists. Sadly, there are those in the church (so-called) who are advocating in their favor. In light of the plain teaching of the Word of God and the unnatural aspects of this behaviour it must be a true stench in God's nostrils. By the way...they are trying to force this stuff on the kids in the public school system. That is a topic for another thread. And this is all I have to say about this stuff here.
Bro.Greg:saint:
Okay Zaac...Here it is.....since I am probably the guy who made the comments you mentioned above I guess I ought to comment. To refer to these folks as queers is far more accurate than calling them "gay" since that is a word which their "movement" co-opted to try and "soften" their image. I once had a young lady I knew who was a lesbian tell me that "there is nothing gay about her lifestyle" I tried to reach her for Christ but to no avail. In using that word they have ruined a perfectly good english word. I have had, over the years, some casual acquaintance with several people of that "persuasion" and it is a fact that they jokingly refer to themselves as "queer" so it is not at all improper to call them that. Secondly....I don't wish to be crude, particularly in a public forum...but if you think through the unnatural aspects of their lifestyle and the fact that they are attempting to force it on US as a legitimate way of life....then yes....it most definitely is completely unbiblical, unnatural, abominable and sickening. Think it through. They want to force us to have to legally regard them as legitimate....and natural. If you think they aren't blunt and "in your face" about this stuff just witness the well-documented events of most any "gay-pride" parade coming to a city near you! We had the "SoulForce" group that blatantly demonstrated in our city right in front of Bob Jones University.
As to the rest of the "sins" you listed above.....you are absolutely RIGHT. We as professed Bible-believers DO need to be introspective and look inside and do some serious "house-cleaning". These things are just as bad in the respect that they hinder or even destroy our personal fellowship with our God and our fellow-believers....not to mention that they are a terrible testimony to the lost in this world that are watching us. We need to come clean and then maybe we might experience the blessing of personal revival and have the power of God on our lives and our witness for Christ.
The big difference though is that the other things listed above are mostly INTERNAL between us and God. The "gay"thing is VERY public and it is a matter of open perversion that is being forced on us by our own government and a very vocal group of sexual activists. Sadly, there are those in the church (so-called) who are advocating in their favor. In light of the plain teaching of the Word of God and the unnatural aspects of this behaviour it must be a true stench in God's nostrils. By the way...they are trying to force this stuff on the kids in the public school system. That is a topic for another thread. And this is all I have to say about this stuff here.
Bro.Greg:saint:
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Gregory Perry Sr.
Active Member
I'm reading through this thread right now...
From page TWO of this thread....Zaac...sin is sin...yes..that is true...but it would be helpful if you would please DEFINE your use of the word BROKENNESS as it relates to this topic and THOSE people.
In my mind, brokenness is something that one experiences as an aspect of REPENTANCE that leads to a restoration to fellowship with God. It is closely related to the matter of being under conviction by the Holy Spirit. Most of the people in question are anything BUT that. Most of them are blatant and unrepentant about their chosen way of living. Thay also try to convince people that they were "born that way".
Please do define "brokenness". I don't wish to be derogatory but it sounds a bit like "psycho-babble" the way you are using it. By the way...I do have some "gay" aquaintances that I would dearly like to see get saved. One of them even says he is saved and that God has no problem with his lifestyle since God made him that way.(like Bronco was talking about). He is not "broken" at all. This stuff is personal to me. He is the son of a Pastor brother of mine. It is his Mom and Dad that are "broken"...believe me. It is a mess. No names mentioned...just pray for them. That family is really going through DEEP water right now.
Bro.Greg:saint:
From page TWO of this thread....Zaac...sin is sin...yes..that is true...but it would be helpful if you would please DEFINE your use of the word BROKENNESS as it relates to this topic and THOSE people.
In my mind, brokenness is something that one experiences as an aspect of REPENTANCE that leads to a restoration to fellowship with God. It is closely related to the matter of being under conviction by the Holy Spirit. Most of the people in question are anything BUT that. Most of them are blatant and unrepentant about their chosen way of living. Thay also try to convince people that they were "born that way".
Please do define "brokenness". I don't wish to be derogatory but it sounds a bit like "psycho-babble" the way you are using it. By the way...I do have some "gay" aquaintances that I would dearly like to see get saved. One of them even says he is saved and that God has no problem with his lifestyle since God made him that way.(like Bronco was talking about). He is not "broken" at all. This stuff is personal to me. He is the son of a Pastor brother of mine. It is his Mom and Dad that are "broken"...believe me. It is a mess. No names mentioned...just pray for them. That family is really going through DEEP water right now.
Bro.Greg:saint:
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Thomas Helwys
New Member
:thumbsup:
Yeah, how would anyone like to have their elementary school child forced to read a book about the virtues of a "marriage" between Adam and Steve?
Thomas Helwys
New Member
Thanks for cutting through all the bull to get to the heart of things.
When i used the term "lifestyle", refer to how we practice sinning against the law of God and against Him by behaviour/thoughts/deeds etc...
Do you advocate that Christians can be living out practicing homosexual behaviour and THAT kind of lifestyle be acceptable and pleasing to the lord?
Again, biggest concern is that GOD Himself has stated Homosexual behaviour really bad to him, even worse than 'straight' sin, in that those doing such are acting 'contrery" to design and creation!
saturneptune
New Member
If God sets sins in a certain order, then that is His business. Man has no business catagorizeing sin, which is what these examples are. Besides that, if one dies without Christ, it really does not matter what sin they committed, now does it? You used the phrase "punishment in heaven." There is no such thing.
Gossip ought to be condemned more than the other things I mentioned. It is one of most destructive sins especially within a local church. However, I see no evidence of churches putting a stop to it. How many sermons have you heard on gossip?
On top of all that, I doubt you can even make a Scriptural case to classify dancing, smoking, gambling, TV, and movies as a sin. (I will leave out drinking, another thread)
I think homosexuality is a grevious sin, and quite disguisting. If I was lost, I would think it is just as disguisting. However, the male who lusts in his heart at a woman not his wife is just as guilty, but in our human minds, we will rate the homosexual as having committed a worse sin than the person who lusted. It is just not so.
The law prescribes punishments and restitutions of varying degrees of severity and costs depending upon the offense. Not every transgression was met with a stoning. Not all are abominations.
No one despises a man who, on the brink of starvation, steals bread. However, when he is found, he must restore seven-fold. The coward who deserts his brother on the battlefield is shot.
Not all sins disqualify one from the pastorate. Let one commit adultery, and it's over, even for the deaconate. (And, no, that point is not up for debate.)
But that's the law, and the law is on earth. Grace, however, is in heaven, and the law and grace do not mix. Where we're told there is no male and female in Christ, yet on earth gender is very much a part of nature and how we relate to one another even in the body of Christ.
On earth, there are greater and lesser sins. That's just the fact of the matter.
From the point of view of heaven, however, the impatience of the infant who doesn't get the paps as soon as he wants is met with the same indignation as the man who has an apetite for little boys, and the remedy is the same.
Applying heaven to our interactions on earth in civil and ecclesiastical law is diabolical and disastrous, and those who attempt to do so understand neither the law nor grace and serve the purposes of hell over those of heaven.
What's the result of Zaac's (and your) insistence that there is no real difference between a starving man stealing bread and depraved man buggering little boys? Other than the guilt of accusing God of arbitrary and unjust judgment of the nations throughout history, you're telling Sodom there really is no difference between her and Zion.
There is only one thing on earth that truly sends one to Christ, and that's the law.
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saturneptune
New Member
You totally miss the point, as usual. The man who dies without Jesus Christ is in hell, forever. We are talking about eternal consequences. For you to imply that my posts give leeway to crimes like you mention towards little boys is totally disguisting. You cannot make a theological point without creating a strawman and attacking someone.
For one time in your life, why don't you discuss an issue without demeaning another human being. For example, the original op relates to how God sees sins. That is eternity. You twisted it to our law systems here on earth, which has nothing to do with the subject.
By the way, I am not telling Sodom anything. It is quite revealing to me that when others discuss this thread, they use one word to describe the sin, while you give graphic detail. Why is that?
At least since I Corinthians 5 was read.
saturneptune
New Member
Baloney, the only thing anywhere that sends one to Christ is God's mercy that He chose to bestow on the elect before the foundation of the world and the quickening of their spirit. All the law does is show us the gap between a Holy God and a sinful man. Without a touch from the Holy Spirit, no one cares about that gap.
quantumfaith
Active Member
I think the following program has some relevance.
http://www.focusonthefamily.com/popups/media_player.aspx?MediaId={BBED885F-8154-45BA-AA8A-344F0A0C795A}
http://www.focusonthefamily.com/popups/media_player.aspx?MediaId={BBED885F-8154-45BA-AA8A-344F0A0C795A}
The point was that one thinking sodomy worse than any other vice was mere self-righteousness. The reasoning behind it is a diabolical confusion of heaven and earth.
But the one who murders is sent there sooner (if justice is righteously administered) than the one who steals.
To awaken your natural aversion to it, if you still have it. What is a gay man other than one whose appetite is monstrous, perverted and vile? There is a stigma on that sin over that of, say, divorce, and there should be in secular society and the church.
Now you're arguing with the Scriptures. You will join Scandal on the receiving end of an Apostolic Smackdown. :type: