HOUSE APPROVES “ANTI-HATE” BILL

[OCC]

Bunyon, don't Christians want to be "more special" than others? If our rights are taken away, they are taken away. Jesus told us the world would hate us and persecute us.

But legally, in the case of rights as they do exist, your (generic "your") rights end where mine begin. So in Canada, nazi-like people do NOT have the right to spread their vile, etc. through public mediums. Not only do they not have the right, they don't have public support as our philosophy as a nation is totally against nazism.

But if it became illegal to speak the Word of God then people with guts will still do it. They won't complain that they are persecuted for it. I'm sure you will speak it despite persecution as well.

The ultimate aim may be to destroy Christianity...but so what? Does anyone honestly think it can happen? Do we put more trust in our "guaranteed rights" than in Christ Himself? I don't know if I believe that crimes against people should be handled by the state. Isn't there a Supreme Court that prosecutes after endless appeals? And up here we do have the "Criminal Code of Canada".

 

[Bunyon]

I'm not sure we have a disagreement. agree with all you said. Let me trow some Bible at you and see if I can modify your view slightly towards mine.

First we live in a democarcy, so we are responible for what happens here. If christians are ever overtly persecuted here or there, all who have a vote will bear some responsiblity for that, which means we can't wash our hands or the people and events that are taking us there.

Here is some Bible. Remember Paul int that one town. They throw him in jail, and beat him. Then he lets them no he is a Roman citizen and and that they have broken the law by whipping a Roman citizen without a hearing. They freak and try to appease him, but he dose not let them, he keeps their feet to the fire over the issue.

While I agree completely with all you have said, I feel we are obligated to try and accomplish the best society possible, based on Christian values, if we fail, we must fail while doing our best. We owe it to our children to try and hand them the best society we possible can.

-----"Not only do they not have the right, they don't have public support as our philosophy as a nation is totally against nazism"

So you think that putting a man on trial and fining him just because he thinks the Bible says homosexuality is wrong and was willing to put the verses in a newpaper is ok?

The Gay community is the main force behind this legislation. Barney Frank, a flamboyant homosexual Gongressman, introduced the bill. Think about it, any time a homosexual is killed. The homosexuals blame it on Christian and their preachers. It always happens. Usually it is not a christians who did it. In the Matthew shepard case the perpetrators were not chuch attenders. Yet I kept seeing where Gay activist were blaming "the hate" that is preached in churches for the murder and other incidents. They even blamed DR. Dobson and his radio show. Do you see where this is going?

I don't believe anyone can stop Christianity. They would have to box the wind first. But I don't want my children kicked out of school or taken away, or thrown in prison because they are Christians either.

 

[OCC]

I hear what you are saying. I get your point.

As for the last half I will discuss that. I don't think it's ok for the man to be on trial but Jesus told us as much that it would happen. We should be willing to go through anything for His glory. False arrest, persecution, an undeserved bad reputation, etc.

I'm going to say something that I know some people will lash out against. I ain't saying it would be easy and in fact, I know it's tough as heck. But we are supposed to love God MORE than our own children. We should try to protect our children but if they are taken away for our faith, God KNOWS about it. He will deal with it. Remember, I'm only stating the ideal. I am in no way saying it is easy or even natural. It would take God's help to survive something like that.

 

[Bunyon]

I don't think we have a disagreement. I accept everything you have said. But I will try to perserve our democracy in the Judao/Christian foundation it was based upon, in fact, that is my duty. But if I fail, I will strive to live up to the ideal you have stated, even to the loss of my children. But if there is a better way- I plan to take it. In a democracy we still have options for the present.

 

[just-want-peace]

While I agree completely with all you have said, I feel we are obligated to try and accomplish the best society possible, based on Christian values, if we fail, we must fail while doing our best. We owe it to our children to try and hand them the best society we possible can.

Well said, and the primary reason this country is heading down the sewer.

We (The Body of Christ) have sat on the political sidelines too long and let the others (however you wish to label them) set the agenda.

Now that the Christians are asserting their LEGAL rejection loud and clear, we're being told that we ought not to be in politics, but to trust God.

I don't see it as an either-or situation. Absolutely no reason we can't be involved in politics AND trust God; just so long as the priorities are correct.

 

[Gold Dragon]

Originally posted by Bunyon:
But I will try to perserve our democracy in the Judao/Christian foundation it was based upon, in fact, that is my duty.

I feel no desire to preserve the "Judeo-Christian culture of the 1700s" the "Protestant fundamentalist culture of the 1950s" or any other man-made culture for that matter.

If there was ever a counter-cultural figure, it would be Jesus who constantly challenging the cultural norms that the religious elite of his time had grown comfortable and complacent in.

I wish to advance the Kingdom of God here on earth which includes being a blessing to all peoples and hope for the oppressed. If there is any "Christian culture" that is so comfortable with the way things were that it is no longer advancing God's kingdom, it deserves to stay in the past.

 

[church mouse guy]

But what you are talking about, Dragon, is some sort of cosmic justice or social justice that is postulated by modernist theology. You are worried about social conditions and certain religious groups that you dislike and you do not mention the condition of men's souls. Your gospel talks about confrontation and attributes that to Jesus and to this world but that is not the nature of the kingdom of God. You are advocating a modernist theology based upon material considerations and government control of the society to conform with these modernist outcomes. Christianity is not a modernist theology but a personal relationship with Jesus and a love for Jesus. The government cannot compel love for Jesus.

 

[Gold Dragon]

Originally posted by church mouse guy:
But what you are talking about, Dragon, is some sort of cosmic justice or social justice that is postulated by modernist theology. You are worried about social conditions and certain religious groups that you dislike and you do not mention the condition of men's souls.

Men's souls need Christ. My role as one who has been forgiven and redeemed by Christ is to advance the kingdom of my Lord and Saviour and in that process hope that others will also know him. If that mean opposing oppresive "Christian" cultures that I consider to be not like the biblical Jesus at all, then that is my role.

Originally posted by church mouse guy:
Your gospel talks about confrontation and attributes that to Jesus and to this world but that is not the nature of the kingdom of God. You are advocating a modernist theology based upon material considerations and government control of the society to conform with these modernist outcomes.

What do you believe is this modernist theology I am advocating, since I consider myself to be a postmodern Christian.

As for attributing confrontation to Jesus, no attribution is necessary. It is in the gospels. I refer you to Matthew 5 as an example of Jesus' counter-cultural perspective. I refer to you Matthew 23 and his woes to the religious establishment to show you his confrontationalism.

Originally posted by church mouse guy:
Christianity is not a modernist theology but a personal relationship with Jesus and a love for Jesus.

I sure hope Christianity is not only modernist. I find modernism in Christianity to be the source of a lot of oppression. As a postmodernist, I definitely advocate the centrality of a relationship with Jesus Christ as the source of everything in Christianity.

Originally posted by church mouse guy:
The government cannot compel love for Jesus.

Of course not. But they can and should protect the people they represent who are being oppressed.

 

[church mouse guy]

Well, I stand corrected. Post-modernism is even worse than modernism. Post-modernism would throw the baby out with the dirty bath water. Note that you once again attack Christian culture, as you say, If that mean[sic] opposing oppresive "Christian" cultures that I consider to be not like the biblical Jesus at all, then that is my role. You are still looking at social conditions, a hallmark of modernist theology.

 

[Bunyon]

Gold Dragon,

The Bible says that there will always be buzzards in the branches. There will always be aspects of Christianity that you can gripe about. But the fact that the western world has modeled itself on Biblical Judeo/Chrisitian values has allowed it to be the biggest blessing the world has ever seen. Who has done better. The Greeks? The Romans? The Ottoman Turks? Who? Can't you give a little credit where credit is due?

 

[Gold Dragon]

Originally posted by Bunyon:
Gold Dragon,

The Bible says that there will always be buzzards in the branches. There will always be aspects of Christianity that you can gripe about. But the fact that the western world has modeled itself on Biblical Judeo/Chrisitian values has allowed it to be the biggest blessing the world has ever seen. Who has done better. The Greeks? The Romans? The Ottoman Turks? Who? Can't you give a little credit where credit is due?

Definitely this so-called Judeo-Christian culture has been a blessing to the world in many ways. I grew up in it and am still a part of it. I would say many of the values of that culture are not biblical even thought they try to be, but many are. It is when we start idolizing a culture and not the Christ who is the source of the culture that we run into problems. Cultures come and go, they make their contributions and humanity moves on. I look forward with excitement to a postmodern culture that will be transformed and completely infiltrated by the person of Jesus Christ and the message of hope he brought to mankind.

 

[Gold Dragon]

Originally posted by church mouse guy:
You are still looking at social conditions, a hallmark of modernist theology.

Jesus also looked at the social conditions of his time and was disgusted about the treatment of the poor, oppressed and outcast in that society. Sure, he didn't use politics to approach the problem but chose a better route, the transformation of individual men.

Now that we live in a democratic society where the government serves and protects individuals, should not the transformation of men be reflected in the government those men elect? Should not mercy and grace that is opposed to hate and abuse be reflected in our government?

I agree that liberal governments have their problems, hence I rarely vote liberal. I also believe that conservative governments have their problems too. Honestly, I could care less who is in power but in either case, may the kingdom of God be ever more present on this earth, sometimes by not doing what some Christians want. The kingdom of God is often at odds with the kingdom of Christians.

 

[Gold Dragon]

.

 

[church mouse guy]

What I don't understand is what you are against Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism and why you think that the government should control them?

 

[Gold Dragon]

Originally posted by church mouse guy:
What I don't understand is what you are against Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism and why you think that the government should control them?

I consider myself to be an Evangelical. Many of my friends and family memebers would consider themselves fundamentalists.

I don't think the government should or can control either of them. I do believe the government can and should prevent abuses of free speech that incite hatred and violence against people, even if that hatred is coming from those who identify with the same demographic groups as myself. Jesus was a Jew who strongly opposed the abuses of the Jews in his day.

Prevention of the incitement of hatred is not intended to prevent hate, a condition of sinful man. But to prevent the propogation of hate through abuses in free speech. Yes as a Canadian, I do not put absolute free speech on the pedestal that most Americans put it on. It is definitely important to have free speech, but also to prevent abuses of free speech.

 

[church mouse guy]

The issue in Canada is if a person can say that something is a sin or not. I would consider that pure free speech since it does not call anyone to action or incite anyone. I didn't know that Canada had any Fundamentalists.

 

[Bunyon]

-----"It is when we start idolizing a culture "----

Christian culture is anything but Idealized today, as your assesment attest.

------"I look forward with excitement to a postmodern culture"-----------------------------

No human culture will ever become the utopia you think post modern culture will. Post modern culture can't even let Jesus be what he claimed ot be, the one and only way to God. But name a culture that has been more of a blessing than this one.

 

[Bunyon]

----"but also to prevent abuses of free speech."--------------------------------------------------

To put a man through a hearing and fine him, for simply putting verses in the paper, is the ultimate abuse of free speech. Has any other religion been fined in canada? "Sticks and stone can break my bones, but words can never hurt me." Unless of course one hates Christ and wants to supress his voice in the world. Then we would have to claim his words hurt, so we can shut him up.

 

[Gold Dragon]

Originally posted by church mouse guy:
The issue in Canada is if a person can say that something is a sin or not.

And they definitely can. It is specifically protected in Bill C-250.

Originally posted by church mouse guy:
I would consider that pure free speech since it does not call anyone to action or incite anyone. I didn't know that Canada had any Fundamentalists.

Way of Life : Directory of Independent and Fundamentalist churches - Canada

While Way of Life is generally full of misinformation about other groups, I hope they have good information about fundamentalists groups.

 

[Gold Dragon]

Originally posted by Bunyon:
-----"It is when we start idolizing a culture "----

Christian culture is anything but Idealized today, as your assesment attest.

------"I look forward with excitement to a postmodern culture"-----------------------------

No human culture will ever become the utopia you think post modern culture will.

I agree that postmodern culture will never be a utopia, will be a failure at modelling the kingdom of God and will ultimately have to change.

My excitement is seeing Christ work in this culture and being a part of Christ's work in this new culture.

Originally posted by Bunyon:
Post modern culture can't even let Jesus be what he claimed ot be, the one and only way to God.

I have no problem stating Jesus is what he claimed to be, the one and only way to God.

Originally posted by Bunyon:
But name a culture that has been more of a blessing than this one.

Even if it is the most blessed one, doesn't mean we can't improve on it.