How are we made righteous?

[Darrell C]

Therefore, the redeemed did not have to wait until the cross to be redeemed, but were already, yet not complete.

Not to sound harsh, but Scripture does not teach that, but in fact teaches the exact opposite.

And we can begin with the passage already given you:


Hebrews 9:12-15
King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


"The redemption of the transgressions that were under the First Covenant" refers to Christ redeeming the sins of the Old Testament Saint by His death.

In v.12 we see clearly that Eternal Redemption was gained by His blood (death), and is contrasted (as he does several times in the Book) to the provision for atonement for sins they had prior to the Cross, which was the blood (death) of bulls and goats (in the stead of the sinner).

That is why they could not enter into Heaven, because they awaited their redemption, and awaited remission of sins that was complete.

We see another explicit statement of this here:


Hebrews 11:13
King James Version (KJV)

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.


Hebrews 11:39-40
King James Version (KJV)

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


One more obvious text I don't think many give thought to in regards to its magnitude in what it states:


2 Corinthians 5:18-19
King James Version (KJV)

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.


Reconciliation was accomplished by God through Christ, and this through the Incarnation, dying on the Cross, the Resurrection, and returning to Heaven that He might send the Comforter. No man was reconciled to God prior to this, and no man was born of God until Christ came:


John 1:11-13
King James Version (KJV)

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


We are born again through the Resurrection of Christ:


1 Peter 1
King James Version (KJV)

1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,


"The Word of Reconciliation" is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It is the Comforter's ministry through which we receive understanding of the Gospel and can be obedient to the Sacrifice of Christ, and we are born again by the Resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.

You just can't have redemption on an eternal basis apart from Christ death, burial, and Resurrection.


Continued...

 

[agedman]

I disagree. The Old Testament was written allegorically so that we would understand the principles of the New Testament's freedom. It is a "tutor" that should lead us to Christ. Insomuch, then, we can apply all of the OT principles to NT faith. In fact, salvation by grace through faith alone originated in Genesis with Abraham (430 years before the law was given, so it is outside of the law).

The choice presented in Deuteronomy 30 is not between The Law and Faith, but rather between Life and Death. Jesus came and said "I am the way, the Truth, and the Life." He was indicating He is the choice God gave them to make if they wished to choose Life.

See, there is this common mistake that folks want to raise the capacity of humans to be able to "choose" eternal life. But it was NOT about ETERNAL life.

1) the LAW cannot ever give life. It is at best a school master (as Paul states) that directs one, points one, to both the need of redemption and what form that redemption takes.

2). The "life and death" choice was not that of ETERNAL life, but temporal life in the land. These had been born of those who came from Egypt. Those who were adults and came from Egypt did not enter into the land, and the picture is that if those who were about to enter were to remain they better live according to the standards established by the Law.

3) The Israeli for all that they might emotionally or intellectually strive, they ultimately had to fail, for all striving under the law as Paul states in Romans is ultimately failure. Hence the righteousness of the law in COMPARISON to the righteousness of the Christ.​

In fact, we all have God's word on our hearts. Do you recall the name God gave the tree that Adam was not to eat from? The tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil. One might say this tree is The Law. To know Good and Evil, one must have The Law. To know The Law one must have it written on their heart. A heart with God's Law written on it cannot be completely depraved as Calvin suggested.

Rom 2:14
For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,​

Even those estranged from God have His law written on their hearts... this has been true since the Fall in Eden. This is so that none have an excuse on the day of judgment.

And what does that law written upon the heart do? Does it redeem? Or does it condemn?

Do not try to make the natural person that is by nature ungodly able from their ungodliness attain that which is Godly. Does the unclean ever make the unclean clean?

That isn't even logical thinking, much less that which Scriptures present.

Ultimately, it is true that all have failed to meet God's standard of righteousness, so yes, in that sense all have failed. How many have failed to be born? Righteousness through faith is to be born again... do you try and fail at being born? Is your birthright earned or do you receive it based on to whom you were born? Faith qualifies us for human adoption under Abraham and we Christ's righteousness. It is not earned of ourselves, but it was earned by Christ and freely given to all the descendants because of a promise. So then we know that it is not God acting on human behavior to give righteousness, but rather God acting toward the righteousness of Christ and making a promise to Himself and Christ and it is God's will to honor His Word which imparts life to the sinful.

Just how does God choose whom His holy people are?

Deuteronomy 7:6
For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.
7 The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples,
8 but because the LORD loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the LORD brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
9 Know therefore that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God, who keeps His covenant and His lovingkindness to a thousandth generation with those who love Him and keep His commandments;​

Nehemiah 9:7
You are the LORD God, Who chose Abram And brought him out from Ur of the Chaldees, And gave him the name Abraham.
8 You found his heart faithful before You, And made a covenant with him To give him the land of the Canaanite, Of the Hittite and the Amorite, Of the Perizzite, the Jebusite and the Girgashite— To give it to his descendants. And You have fulfilled Your promise, For You are righteous.

John 6:64
But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.
65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

1Peter 1:2
[chosen] according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.​

John Calvin himself said of God’s predestined elect, “God has attested this [predestination] not only in individual persons, but has given us an example of it in the whole offspring of Abraham."

So even John Calvin recognized that God chose Abraham’s descendants as a group, and not each person individually. God’s elect (or chosen) are those who inherit the oath he made with Abraham. Those who are qualified as heirs of the promise or covenant.



Do you believe this is what Jesus meant when He said "You will know my sheep by their love." And do you think insulting a person makes them more likely to listen to and consider accepting your arguments or less likely? If I may offer some advice; I recommend you reconsider this debate strategy.

I do not know were you got, "So then we know that it is not God acting on human behavior to give righteousness, but rather God acting toward the righteousness of Christ and making a promise to Himself and Christ and it is God's will to honor His Word which imparts life to the sinful."

I am totally taken back by such a statement. It is not what the Scriptures present.

God has no need to "make(Ing) a promise to Himself and Christ" and He most certainly does not "act toward the righteousness of Christ."

Perhaps you can display some Scripture to support this statement?

Romans 10:

8But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”​

Prior to ANYONE being saved, the Word was ALREADY in the heart and mouth.

If that Word was not present in the heart, it matters not what that person may say. For, with the HEART one believes and is JUSTIFIED (righteous). The MOUTH professes that salvation, not to gain but that it has been gained.

I don't know where you were going with that you posted about individuals and groups.

But perhaps you have been taught some "corporate election" business.

It is unfortunate that some have taken it to the extreme that I have encountered in the past.

God saves individuals, not corporates. God placed importance upon individuals gathering and assembling themselves together.

But, God attends to the individuals of the assembly and, as those individuals work (or not) within the aspects of others of the assembly, the Holy Spirit will hold the individuals of the assembly accountable. See the early deaths of individuals in the Corinthian church as an example.

 

[Darrell C]

The poor man Lazarus was "not condemned already" as that rich man was but was as all believers, "not condemned."

There is nothing in Luke 16 that teaches that "Lazarus...was not condemned."

All men are born under condemnation, and the only remedy for that condemnation is the Cross.

If the believers of the OT were "not condemned"

This is a syllogistic conclusion:

Major premise: Those who believe on Christ are not condemned;

Minor premise: Agedman thinks Lazarus, and other Old Testament Saints, was a believer in Christ;

Conclusion: men were redeemed by Christ prior to Christ dying.


Not even the disciples believed on Christ as the Risen Savior until Pentecost:


Mark 16:9-14
King James Version (KJV)

9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

10 And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.

11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.

12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.

13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.

14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.


Can a man be eternally redeemed by something other than believing on the Risen Savior?

The answer is no.

We would have to ascribe Abraham's belief, for example, in God's promises, as the means of his salvation, when it still remains that Abraham was retroactively redeemed when Christ died on the Cross.

Again...


Hebrews 9:12-15
King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


Old Testament provision for remission of sins was the blood of bulls and goats. Animals died in the sttead of the sinner...until Christ did.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

that means that the blood was shed (for without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin) in atonement for them either before they lived or while they lived.

Great, all you have to do is, first, find Scripture that verifies that, and secondly...address the Scripture given that shows redemption awaited Christ in regards to eternal Redemption and Remission of sins.

For there is no escape from condemnation without the shed blood.

Not entirely accurate, and I want you to note carefully what I say, so you do not confuse it with what you think I am saying: the Old Testament Saint could be justified by their obedience to the revelation (God's revealed will for men) they had available to them. During Pre-Cross eras God gave them animal sacrifice as a means of vicarious death, meaning, animals died in their place for their sin. This began in the Garden, and is seen in every Age: Abel, Noah, Abraham, Job, and Jacob all offer up sacrifice prior to the establishment of the Law. When the Covenant of Law was established, that was the ruling dispensation until Christ.

So note carefully these passages again:


Hebrews 10:1-4
King James Version (KJV)

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


That is contrasted with Christ's Sacrifice:


Hebrews 10:10-14
King James Version (KJV)

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


The word "perfected" speaks of bringing to an end the issue described. Here, the context is that of remission of sins, and the point is, "The sacrifices of the (Covenant of) Law could not make the comer thereunto (the worshiper) complete in regards to remission of sins, that is why they had to be continually offered. But, the Sacrifice of Christ needed only be offered once for all time, and it has made the comer thereunto, the one sanctified by the Sacrifice of Christ...

...complete in regards to remission of sins for ever.

And again, we see the Old Testament saint was not made complete in regards to remission of sins forever, as seen in Hebrews 11:13 and Hebrews 11:39-40 (given in previous response so I won't quote them again), because they did not receive the fulfillment of God's promise as seen here:


Jeremiah 31:31-34
King James Version (KJV)

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


Hebrews 10:15-18
King James Version (KJV)

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.


The Writer's point being that Christ has fulfilled the promise to remove sin, both the penalty, as well as practically in the lives of believers.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

as all the not condemned already did prior to the cross.

We only view Saints prior to the Cross as not condemned from an eternal perspective. They had been declared Just, but, they died still in need of having their sins forgiven, and awaited Eternal Redemption.

We see them distinguished from the Church (saints born again during this Age, starting at Pentecost) here...


Hebrews 12:22-24
King James Version (KJV)

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

They are called "spirits" because they had died. They are called just because they had been justified, just as we see Abraham was, by both faith and works (which must be kept in a temporal context).

And they were made perfect the same way we are, through the Work of Christ:


Hebrews 11:39-40
King James Version (KJV)

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


Continued...

 

[Yeshua1]

Ephesians 1 tells us the order is hear the gospel, believe (faith), then regeneration.

Eph 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.​

"Saving faith" doesn't regenerate a person. "Saving faith" merely qualifies a person for human adoption. God's promise to Abraham that his descendants would inherit righteousness is what regenerates a person, but this process is indirect.

Col 1:12
giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.

Heb 9:15
For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

1Pe 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,​

This is why you must be "born again." You must be born as a child of God, or adopted as children of Abraham. Faith DOES NOT have the power to regenerate a person. It is merely a human qualifier for being considered the descendant of Abraham.

I ask Calvinists this question: Are the Jews God's holy, chosen people? Which ones? Does God consider the whole of Abraham's offspring elect (as John Calvin himself stated) as a holy, chosen people? Does being descended from a Jew qualify one as a Jew (and therefore part of the elect group) or do they have to earn their family ethnicity?

So we see that being adopted as a child of Abraham (again - a human adoption with no mystical, special regeneration involved) is sufficient to qualify for God's promise in Genesis 17:7 that all of Abraham's descendants would inherit the righteousnesses he was given.

A true child of Abraham would one who has been saved by God, through Jesus Christ, and they believed unto Jesus for salvation due to God having already elected them out beforehand, and granting them the means to receive Him and be now saved!

 

[Darrell C]

Do you recall a verse that short little verse in the Revelation 13? I records that the lamb was slain before the foundations of the world were set in place.

This speaks of the fact that Christ dying on the Cross was something that was planned before the world even came into existence.

It does not suggest that Christ died on the Cross prior to His dying on the Cross.

There are those who would like God to be conformed to the time and space of human reckoning,

And then there are those like me who simply want Christians to be conformed to what Scripture actually teaches.

The mythology of Christ's Sacrifice applied in advance of His being born of a woman, dying on the Cross, and the Resurrection is something I reject.

It cannot be supported by the Word of God, and not one man can deny the Scriptures that teach that Eternal Redemption was obtained by Christ when He died.

Again:


Hebrews 9:12-15
King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


The Writer does not equate the two sacrifices he speaks of, he shows that the sacrifices of the Law could not make one complete in regards to remission of sins, but Christ's does...for ever.

yet there is no reason that one should assume that the work of the crucifixion was not already an accomplished fact from the beginning from God's perspective.

Doesn't mean we apply redemption prior to it being obtained by Christ.

The man Christ did not exist until the Son of God took up residence in the body that was created in the womb of Mary. Mary cannot be placed prior to the time whe was alive. Christ's death did not take place until that day He was lifted up.

It is error, popular though it may be, to ascribe Eternal Redemption to the Old Testament Saints prior to the Cross. Their Eternal REdemption was retroactive.


Continued...

 

[agedman]

You do know that the Scriptures you posted support what I said more than your view?
For example you posted:

Hebrews 9:12-15
King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Who is the us?
Taking the Scriptures that the crucifixion was already a reality in heaven as the Revelation passage declares.
Then the "US" includes the OT saints.

And the posting of the next part fits perfectly for certainly "they which ARE CALLED" did and do receive the promise of eternal inheritance (resurrection to life).
Did you happen to see that the verse is excluding all the not called. Seems Paul was rather Calvinistic in that statement.

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


"The redemption of the transgressions that were under the First Covenant" refers to Christ redeeming the sins of the Old Testament Saint by His death.

Perhaps you are taking the "under the first testament" to mean THOSE under the first testament. Not true.

It is the transgressions that were (and continue to occur) under the first testament that Paul is addressing. That which the Law cannot resolve, but only condemn.

Just as I stated. They (OT saints) were already redeemed, but waited for the resurrection from the death.

v.12 we see clearly that Eternal Redemption was gained by His blood (death), and is contrasted (as he does several times in the Book) to the provision for atonement for sins they had prior to the Cross, which was the blood (death) of bulls and goats (in the stead of the sinner).

That is why they could not enter into Heaven, because they awaited their redemption, and awaited remission of sins that was complete.

OT saints could not enter heaven because there was no resurrection of the lamb.

The lamb was slain from the foundations of the world, but the resurrection had to occur in human time line.

Where are the redeemed at this current time?

They are not in "Abraham's bosom" but there at that great alter in heaven. (Revelation 6)

We see another explicit statement of this here:


Hebrews 11:13
King James Version (KJV)

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.


Hebrews 11:39-40
King James Version (KJV)

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Hence, why I stated that the Scriptures are supportive of what I hold.

Here we find that the OT saints DID NOT attain that perfected body "without us" but had to wait until the resurrection. We, also, because of the resurrection have that promise of the new perfect body.

One more obvious text I don't think many give thought to in regards to its magnitude in what it states:


2 Corinthians 5:18-19
King James Version (KJV)

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.


Reconciliation was accomplished by God through Christ, and this through the Incarnation, dying on the Cross, the Resurrection, and returning to Heaven that He might send the Comforter. No man was reconciled to God prior to this, and no man was born of God until Christ came:


John 1:11-13
King James Version (KJV)

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


We are born again through the Resurrection of Christ:


1 Peter 1
King James Version (KJV)

1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,


"The Word of Reconciliation" is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It is the Comforter's ministry through which we receive understanding of the Gospel and can be obedient to the Sacrifice of Christ, and we are born again by the Resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.

You just can't have redemption on an eternal basis apart from Christ death, burial, and Resurrection.


Continued...

I have to run, but let me again state, that eternal redemption was in two elements. It is why we have been given by the Lord the remembrance of blood and body.

The blood is a separate element from the resurrection.

HOWEVER, the blood does not stand apart from the resurrection when it comes to the completed redemption of the human.

The blood was from the foundation of the world. That is why the OT believers could reside at rest in Abraham's bosom, while the unbelievers being condemned already were and are in torment.

The resurrection had to occur in the human timeline (for it would be impossible for there to be a resurrection in heaven) and therefore the OT redeemed were complete and in His presence following the resurrection.

Paul and John were very careful when writing that they distinguished between the work of the blood and the work of the resurrection.

 

[Darrell C]

That the blood shed in human history was factually shed from the foundations established as earth.

Great. Where is your Scripture?

Remember Rev. 5 there is a search made of heaven and great sorrow when none was found to take the scroll?

This takes place...in the future, lol. It has no relevance to Christ's death or Redemption imposed erroneously into Old Testament Ages.

Yet, there was the one who appeared as a lamb slain.

He had in fact died at that point, which again...makes it irrelevant to the teaching you are trying to support.

When it comes to salvation (from the tabernacle to the cross)

There was no salvation in the Tabernacle, or in the Temple, or in any Age prior to Christ dying, rising from the dead, and reconciling men unto Himself.

Again:


Hebrews 9:7-10
King James Version (KJV)

7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:


This is how remission of sins was accomplished under Law. The "blood" here refers to the death of an animal. We do not equate this to the Sacrifice of Christ, and we see that they had to do this to receive remission of sins from God.

He is the One Who established this system.


8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

The "Holiest of All" is defined by the Writer as Heaven. In other words, "The way into Heaven was not made manifest while the Tabernacle was still standing (and I think we can apply, based on the passage, the services of the Tabernacle as well)."


9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;


See the link. The Tabernacle, Holy Place, and Holy of Holies...was a parable. It was not the reality, which was Heaven and God's actual presence. Only the High Priest could come before God, this in figure/parable, and only once a year. Quite a contrast to our coming into God's presence today, now that Christ has opened the way in the Holiest of All, Heaven.


10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.


His point? These things were physical, and only a figure/parable of the realities.



Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

the earth is reflecting that which is in factually present in heaven

As just seen in the example of the Tabernacle, this is true...back then.

We do not have "a reflection" of Heaven and God's presence at this time, we have the reality.

(Hebrews 8 if I recall correctly).

Chapter Nine.

Certainly, the crucifixion was real, the blood was actual, and all that went into the crucifixion took place in human time. However, the OT saints were not in Hades, but rested in the "Bosom of Abraham"

That is still Hades. It is the term used to speak of the place of the dead. It was Sheol in the Hebrew Scriptures.

They could do so, because in heaven human events such as the cross was already an accomplished fact.

How does going to Hades, and not coming into the presence of God in reality...support Pre-Cross Eternal Redemption?

Remember the Lord's table has TWO elements.

This is true, but both speak of the same accomplishment...His death.


Luke 22:19-20
King James Version (KJV)

19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.


So we do not divide the "two elements" because they refer to one thing: His death.

It is not only the blood, but the body.

Both blood and body refer to death.

So when reading such verses as it is the complete package (blood and body) that is in consideration, not one or the other.

Have no idea what point it is you're trying to make.

The blood had a specific mission, the body had a specific mission.

?

Could you show me Scripture on that?

Together they accomplished what was necessary for reconciliation.

He made possible Reconciliation for men who were in need of Eternal Redemption that they might dwell with God in Heaven and actually be placed in Him, and have Him dwell in them.

The OT saints did not wait on redemption, but were already redeemed.

Great, now all you need is Scripture to verify that.

I'll be waiting...


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

They were perfected in Him.

Sorry, they were not (the Old Testament Saints, that is, prior to the Cross):


Hebrews 11:39-40
King James Version (KJV)

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

What they waited upon was the resurrection of Christ.

I would disagree with that too, for it is just my view that the Old Testament Saint was redeemed through the Cross. That is what Hebrews states as the means of the transgressions under the Law being redeemed, as well as the obtaining of Eternal Redemption.

That resurrection was not a completeness of perfection, but the completeness of the promise.

Perfection was the promise, lol.

God promised complete remission of sins, and that was only accomplished through Christ's Sacrifice.

That is why the blood (death) of bulls and goats is contrasted with it, and is said that they could never take away sins (or the penalty thereof), and they could not make the comer thereunto complete in regards to remission of sins.

That;s why they had to be continually offered, and the Priests had no rest.

But...


Hebrews 10:10-14
King James Version (KJV)

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

There is no more a place called "paradise" in which the keeping of the redeemed reside until the resurrection.

As to whether it is still there or not we do not know, but, what is relevant to your teaching is that we can say dogmatically that the Just are not there anymore, and that believers do not any longer go there after death.

To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. That is because Christ made manifest the way into the Holiest of All through His death. We enter into the Holiest of All through His flesh (death), which the veil of the Tabernacle was but a parable for.

When the believer discards this earthly husk, we are present with the Lord, just as the OT saints are currently.

Hey...something we agree on!

In the days of my rebellion and brokenness.

Well, HVAC is enough to drive one to drink, lol. We are the special ops of Construction.

So its not all bad.


God bless.

 

[SheepWhisperer]

In a recently closed thread, it was claimed being made righteous by the blood of Christ is the same thing as being declared righteous or having righteousness "imputed" to us. This assertion is false theology.

When God and God alone transfers us into Christ, when we are baptized into Christ, we undergo the circumcision of Christ where our sin burden (what God holds against us due to sin) is removed. Thus the Lamb of God takes away the sin of the world, one sinner at a time.

It was also claimed we have not been made righteous, because we still think and do sinful things. This assertion is false theology. Although we certainly think and do sinful things, because we have been justified, once for all our sins, past, present and future, it is just as if we had not sinned, therefore we remain righteous.

One poster posted a translation of Titus 3:7 which read in part, we have been "declared righteous" but the vast majority of translations render the Greek word "dikaiOthentes" as "justified. So a Greek word has within its range of meanings "declared righteous" but according modern translations (NASB, NKJV, NET, LEB and NIV) they all render it justified at Titus 3:7.

Also candor requires that I admit I was wrong when I said no verse or passage says "declared righteous." Besides the YLT, I also found that the NLT also translates verses where the Greek word appears with words to the effect we were declared righteous.

Summary, how are we made righteous, by the blood of the Lamb.
When are we made righteous, when we are transferred into Christ.

Righteousness is "imputed" to a person because of his faith in Christ and His finished work on Calvary, end of story.
see Romans chapter 4, especially 4:20-25

 

[Gup20]

Part1

See, there is this common mistake that folks want to raise the capacity of humans to be able to "choose" eternal life. But it was NOT about ETERNAL life.

I disagree. I believe the context of Deuteronomy 30 is clearly New Covenant salvation:

Deu 30:6
Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your [fn]descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.

Rom 2:29
But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Heb 8:10
FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL
AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD:
[fn]I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS,
AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS.
AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD,
AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
​

In fact, not only does God command us to make the choice, but God explicitly says WE CAN DO IT, and that the choice is not made by God in heaven:

Deu 30:11
For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach.
12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’
13 Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’
14 But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.
15 See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;
19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,​

1) the LAW cannot ever give life. It is at best a school master (as Paul states) that directs one, points one, to both the need of redemption and what form that redemption takes.

Agreed and Amen.

2). The "life and death" choice was not that of ETERNAL life, but temporal life in the land. These had been born of those who came from Egypt. Those who were adults and came from Egypt did not enter into the land, and the picture is that if those who were about to enter were to remain they better live according to the standards established by the Law.

The context is circumcision of the heart. Moreover, in Romans 10 we just saw that Paul specifically calls out this passage as supporting eternal life:

Rom 10:6
But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, ‘WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?’ (that is, to bring Christ down),
7 or ‘WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).”
8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.​

Do you think Paul isn't talking about eternal salvation in this passage?

3) The Israeli for all that they might emotionally or intellectually strive, they ultimately had to fail, for all striving under the law as Paul states in Romans is ultimately failure. Hence the righteousness of the law in COMPARISON to the righteousness of the Christ.

The righteousness of the Law in comparison to the righteousness of faith, but yes, otherwise we are in agreement here. Faith vs Law are the two covenants as Galatians 3-4 and Hebrews 8 describes.

And what does that law written upon the heart do? Does it redeem? Or does it condemn?

The Law has no power to redeem... it can only condemn.

Gal 3:21
Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law.​

Do not try to make the natural person that is by nature ungodly able from their ungodliness attain that which is Godly. Does the unclean ever make the unclean clean?

That isn't even logical thinking, much less that which Scriptures present.

If this was true, Adam who didn't have a sinful nature, only a divine nature at creation, would not have been able to sin. Yet he did operate outside of his nature and sinned, bringing death and the curse... and with it a knowledge of both good and evil.

I do not know were you got, "So then we know that it is not God acting on human behavior to give righteousness, but rather God acting toward the righteousness of Christ and making a promise to Himself and Christ and it is God's will to honor His Word which imparts life to the sinful."

I am totally taken back by such a statement. It is not what the Scriptures present.

I originally got this from Galatians 3-4, but it has expanded to everywhere since then. Let me lay some groundwork here:

2Corinthians 5:21
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Hebrews 9:15
For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Hebrews 9:12
and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.​

So moving to Galatians, lets unpack that.

Galatians 3:6​

Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.

This is the scriptural basis for faith being the exchange currency for righteousness. Paul shows that the Torah, the law itself, provides the basis for salvation by faith because he is quoting from Genesis 15 (part of the Torah).

Genesis 15:5​

And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

What God showed me was that it wasn’t that Abraham simply believed God when He told him any random thing. The reason Abraham was credited as righteous was because he believed something very specific. For example, if God said “the sky is blue” and I believed Him, it doesn’t make me righteous. Paul continues to lay out the case in Galatians 3 for us:

Galatians 3:16​

Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as referring to many, but rather to one, “And to your seed,” that is, Christ.

According to Paul, when God says to Abraham in Genesis 15:5 “so shall thy seed be” He was talking about Jesus Christ! It wasn’t that Abraham believed any random thing, but rather that God told Abraham specifically about Jesus Christ, and when Abraham believed God regarding Jesus Christ, he was made righteous. Isn’t this the same as we Christians do today? Aren’t we made righteous by believing the gospel of Jesus Christ? Some might say, “but faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.” Yes, that is true and I believe that God Himself was preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ to Abraham and when Abraham believed the gospel of Jesus Christ, he was saved – or made righteous. Paul confirms this in Galatians 3:8:

Galatians 3:8
The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU.”

So Abraham was made righteous because God preached the gospel to him and he believed the gospel! This means Abraham was the first “Christian” – the first person saved by grace through their faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ. Paul confirms that Abraham was indeed the first believer:

Galatians 3:7​

Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.

Galatians 3:9
So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

Luke 19:9
And Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham.”

Paul then moves into describing to the Galatians how this works. Paul reiterates that while righteousness can come by the covenant of the law, there will be no one who will be made righteous that way (presumably because all have sinned and are thereby disqualified from being declared righteous by The Law). The only way to be made perfectly and permanently righteous once you have sinned, is through the covenant of faith.

Galatians 3:11​

Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.”

Habakkuk 2:4
“Behold, as for the proud one, His soul is not right within him; But the righteous will live by his faith.

 

[Gup20]

Part 2

Paul describes that the righteousness we receive is the righteousness of Christ. He redeems us by purchasing us, and exchanging his righteousness for our sin – but even more specifically Christ’s righteousness went to Abraham.

Galatians 3:14
in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Hebrews 2:16
For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.
​

Galatians 3:14 reminds me of Deuteronomy 30. The Bible sometimes uses the word blessing as a synonym for salvation, and an antonym for sin and death.

Deuteronomy 30:19
“I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,​

Paul talks about the promise of the spirit through faith. So what is this promise? The next section of Galatians 3 describes this.

Galatians 3:14
in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
15 Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is only a man’s covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it.
16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as referring to many, but rather to one, “And to your seed,” that is, Christ.
17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise.
18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.​

This promise is the promise of salvation. It is the gospel. In verse 15 Paul defines this promise as being the very covenant of faith itself. He goes on in verse 16 to say these promises were spoken to Abraham, but were specifically referencing (and being made TO) Christ and those in Christ. Then Paul makes a powerful and illuminating statement in verse 17 – the covenant of faith came 430 years before the covenant of The Law. When you look at this statement with verse 15 – that once a covenant has been ratified, you cannot add conditions to it or set it aside, you realize that there is no legitimate theological position for any sort of works-based salvation. So when was this covenant ratified?

The covenant of faith was ratified by God in Genesis 15 – immediately following God making Abraham righteous by his faith in the gospel. A friend of mine once preached a message on the ratification of that covenant – in those days a covenant was ratified by splitting an animal in half and walking between the two halves with a torch. In Genesis 15:8-17, Abraham asks God how he can know and be sure that the things God promised him would come to pass. God makes the covenant and ratifies it by having Abraham get a heifer, a ram, a goat, a turtledove, and a pigeon and split them in half. After dark, God passes between the two halves as a pillar of fire, thereby ratifying the covenant. Once ratified, it can’t be added to or have conditions placed upon it. So The Law, which came 430 years later, doesn’t modify the covenant of faith.

The next point to note is that Paul says in Galatians 3:18 that this promise is an inheritable promise. Indeed, we see from the Genesis account, God makes it an “everlasting covenant” that will be inherited by all of Abraham’s descendants.

Genesis 17:2
And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,
4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
​

So at the inception of the covenant of faith, God does something interesting. He gives Abraham a new name. Here we see the concept of being “born again” being alluded to. He says that Abraham (no longer Abram) will be the “father of many nations” indicating that the covenant of faith will cause the adoption as sons of other peoples besides his own offspring. So when we call him “Abraham” rather than “Abram” we proclaim that this promise is to all the nations, and not the Jews alone! I specifically used the King James Version here because I think it’s one of the only translations that agrees with Galatians 3:16 in showing “seed” as a singular rather than a plural like “descendants”. Here in Genesis 17:7 we see that God is establishing the covenant of faith with Abraham and says that it will be an “everlasting covenant” both to Abraham and then inherited by his “seed” in their generations. This alludes to the fact that while the promise is being made to Christ, it is also to those who are “in Christ.”

I believe that God is referring to Abraham’s spiritual seed (those who have the same faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ that Abraham had), not his physical seed (the Jews). I do leave room (and I think a case can be made) for the possibility of a simultaneous dual meaning. I no longer have room for a physical-descendant-only interpretation. This is confirmed by many passages:

 

[Gup20]

Part 3

Galatians 3:7
Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.

Galatians 3:26
For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 3:29
And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.

Galatians 4:30
But what does the Scripture say? “CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN.”

Romans 9:6
But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED.”
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Hebrews 2:16
For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.

Luke 19:9
And Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham.”

Isaiah 54:1
“Shout for joy, O barren one, you who have borne no child; Break forth into joyful shouting and cry aloud, you who have not travailed; For the sons of the desolate one will be more numerous Than the sons of the married woman,” says the LORD.
​

God has no need to "make(Ing) a promise to Himself and Christ" and He most certainly does not "act toward the righteousness of Christ."

What I mean by this is that it is not the faith of the person which influences or motivates God. God is motivated by his promise, not by our faith or lack thereof. The entire basis of "Total Depravity" is that man is too sinful and depraved to motivate action from a Holy, Sovereign God. What I'm saying is that this point is irrelevant because faith doesn't cause God to regenerate or "save" or make a person righteous. God promised Abraham that his descendants would inherit the righteousness God gave him, and it is this promise that motivates God to give Abraham's righteousness to his descendants, not their faith. Their faith merely qualifies them as descendants (or not if they don't have faith). So then, the faith isn't acting on or influencing God, but rather God is acting on His own promise. The big mistake of Calvin (and Arminius) was assuming that faith directly influenced salvation (righteousness, regeneration, etc). It does not. Faith merely qualifies one for human adoption (nothing mystical or regenerative there). But it is WHOM we are adopted by that matters for salvation. If we have the same faith in the gospel of Jesus that Abraham had, we are adopted sons of Abraham and heirs according to God's promise to Abraham.

I don't know where you were going with that you posted about individuals and groups.

Believers are not individually elected as Calvinism presupposes, but rather the group "Abraham's descendants" have been selected as a group to obtain Christ's righteousness which was given to Abraham for his faith. God chose the group, and our choice to believe either qualifies or disqualifies us from being a part of that group. This is why I like to ask Calvinists if the Jews are God's people. If they say yes (in agreement with scripture) then they are admitting that God does choose groups. If they say no, they stand against a vast volume of scripture.

God saves individuals, not corporates. God placed importance upon individuals gathering and assembling themselves together.

Righteousness is applied individually, yes, but the "election" or "chosen" are those who qualify to inherit God's promise to Abraham.

 

[Darrell C]

Darrell C said: ↑

Hebrews 9:12-15
King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

You do know that the Scriptures you posted support what I said more than your view?

Not sure how you see that. Kind of hard to teach men were eternally redeemed when Scripture makes it clear Eternal Redemption was obtained by Christ through the Cross.

Note also He entered into the Holy Place which was not made with hands. That died not take place until He died.

For example you posted:

Darrell C said: ↑

Hebrews 9:12-15
King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Who is the us?

The "us" is all inclusive. It speaks first to those who have been redeemed, but also applies to Israel as a whole. He is speaking to His Hebrew Brethren as well as to Hebrew believers who have been redeemed.

Taking the Scriptures that the crucifixion was already a reality in heaven as the Revelation passage declares.

There is no Revelation passage that declares the Crucifixion was already a reality before it takes place.

And you have not in the least begun to address the numerous passages which make it clear redemption on an eternal basis was retroactive for the Old Testament Saint who had died.

Then the "US" includes the OT saints.

I agree.

And the posting of the next part fits perfectly for certainly "they which ARE CALLED" did and do receive the promise of eternal inheritance (resurrection to life).

But you completely ignore the fact it is stated explicitly that the Old Testament Saints did not receive the promises of God in their lifetime:


Hebrews 11:13; 39-40
King James Version (KJV)

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.


39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Now let's look at your claim again:

And the posting of the next part fits perfectly for certainly "they which ARE CALLED" did and do receive the promise of eternal inheritance (resurrection to life).

That is false and you have been refuted, not by me, but by Scripture.

They did not receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Consider:


Hebrews 9:12-15

King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.


He obtained eternal redemption for us. How? By His death.

This is what the Old Testament Saint had as provision:


13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:


The deaths of bulls and goats.

And it was a physical cleansing, not spiritual.

As Christ's was...


14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

See the contrast? The blood of bulls and goats (what they had) and the Blood of Christ. Blood refers to death. The deaths of animals was allowed in the stead of the sinner.

Now...

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


It is the establishment of the New Covenant, wherein the promises lie, which was established on His death...that they (everyone redeemed by the Blood of Christ) received (as in getting it, not the promise itself) that which God promised.

They did not receive it in their lifetimes.

Did you happen to see that the verse is excluding all the not called.

?

Is that like saying "Did you notice the verse excluded Christ not dying?"

Seems Paul was rather Calvinistic in that statement.

No, Paul was not Calvinistic, because his Doctrine was not flawed by error and humanistic denominationalism.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Darrell C said: ↑
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

"The redemption of the transgressions that were under the First Covenant" refers to Christ redeeming the sins of the Old Testament Saint by His death.

Perhaps you are taking the "under the first testament" to mean THOSE under the first testament. Not true.

Actually, not only is it true, but I have an entire Book full of support to show that Hebrews under Law is the Writer's primary audience.

In view are simply transgressions according to the Law, and while this applies to those same transgressions prior to the establishment of the Law, Pre-Law Ages are not relevant to the Writer because the focus is on Israel as a Nation. That is why, I believe, the Writer refers to the Tabernacle, rather than the Temple.

It is the transgressions that were (and continue to occur) under the first testament that Paul is addressing.

?

Oh, so they are not transgressions anymore? lol

Think about that Agedman. You're really reaching in order to support your doctrine and teaching.

That which the Law cannot resolve, but only condemn.

Sorry, but if Christ had redeemed the transgressions themselves then they would no longer be relevant. You are destroying your own argument.

Just as I stated. They (OT saints) were already redeemed, but waited for the resurrection from the death.

Now you really go off the rails, trying to make this mean glorification.

Glorification is not the context of this passage, and physical resurrection of believers is not in view at all.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Darrell C said: ↑
v.12 we see clearly that Eternal Redemption was gained by His blood (death), and is contrasted (as he does several times in the Book) to the provision for atonement for sins they had prior to the Cross, which was the blood (death) of bulls and goats (in the stead of the sinner).

That is why they could not enter into Heaven, because they awaited their redemption, and awaited remission of sins that was complete.

OT saints could not enter heaven because there was no resurrection of the lamb.

Nor could they be born again, reconciled to God, eternally indwelt by God...

...because they died in their sins, still under penalty and a death still pending for that sin.

he lamb was slain from the foundations of the world, but the resurrection had to occur in human time line.

You impose meaning into that which is not there, and deny the basic principle of Christ's Death in the stead of the sinner took place at the appointed time:


Galatians 4
King James Version (KJV)

1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;

2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.

3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.


This refutes your teaching. The redemption of those under the Law occurred when God sent the Son to redeem them.

Renounce your doctrine. Stop imposing into Scripture doctrine that is not there, but the doctrine of men.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Where are the redeemed at this current time?

They are not in "Abraham's bosom" but there at that great alter in heaven. (Revelation 6)

You say this like I denied it.

Darrell C said: ↑
We see another explicit statement of this here:


Hebrews 11:13
King James Version (KJV)

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.


Hebrews 11:39-40
King James Version (KJV)

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Hence, why I stated that the Scriptures are supportive of what I hold.

You still haven't given the first thing that supports your doctrine.

And you have not addressed that which clearly refutes it.

Now you have a new one to consider:


Galatians 4
King James Version (KJV)

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Here we find that the OT saints DID NOT attain that perfected body "without us" but had to wait until the resurrection.

No, Agedman, we do not, lol.

The context does not deal with the physical resurrection of the Saints.

That was not a promise of God in regards to the New Covenant, it was a Mystery.

We, also, because of the resurrection have that promise of the new perfect body.

Agreed, but what does that have to do with the focus of our discussion, which is whether Old Testament Saints were redeemed or not?

It doesn't. You again impose something into the text which simply isn't there.

I have to run, but let me again state, that eternal redemption was in two elements.

No, it was not.

We are redeemed by on thing, Christ's Sacrifice, and just because Communion has two elements we do not fracture the Death of Christ.

It is why we have been given by the Lord the remembrance of blood and body.

We have been given Communion so that we remember one thing, not two:


1 Corinthians 11:25-27
King James Version (KJV)

25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.


Continued...