how can calvinism be "the Gospel?" isn't Tjat Jesus And the Cross/Resurrection?

[Skandelon]

Yes! One is Man Centered & one is God Centered.

The only way our view is more "man centered" is our insistence that men are "without excuse" because God has made his appeal to be reconciled to Him abundantly clear. And the only way your view more "God centered" is that you place the culpability for right back in His lap giving man the perfect excuse on the final day.

"It is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is a gift of God"

"Οὐ τὴν πίστιν λέγει δῶρον Θεοῦ ἀλλὰ τὸ διὰ πίστεως σωθὴναι τοῦτο δῶρόν ἐστι Θεοῦ. ‘He does not say that faith is the gift of God; but to be saved by faith, this is the gift of God.’"
-Quote from Calvin Commentaries note 124

 

[Skandelon]

This is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. In a noncalvinist's view, one cannot have a flawed notion of Christ and the atonement and still be saved.

Are you saying that we believe that those, like yourself, who disagree about Christ's atonement aren't saved? Am I understanding that correctly, because I don't think anyone here has said that.

The Calvinist says that the Lord knoweth them that are His, even if they are in grievous error.

Do you believe that some of his elect might die while still in that error, or do you believe he will effectually bring them to correct understanding?

 

[JesusFan]

Please leave the dancing for professionals.
Aaron made the comment in the very post you quote and agree to.

I didn't ask you to deflect the question by asking me to ask others. I wanted YOU to answer the question posed to YOU.

If Calvinism preaches the ONLY true gospel that entails all others are in fact preaching a false gospel which of necessity equates to no one but Calvinists are saved.

think that this involves the "what/how" of salavation itself...

IF we stick to strictly the "Gospel" message here...
ANY who preach that man is a sinner, unable to save himself, must place personal faith in the Cross of Christ, receive Him as your saviour...

that would fall under "what" saves anyone... Death of Jesus paying the sin debt we owe to God , a penal; substitute rendering to God what is now owed Him...

the "how" would be the actual method used by God, calvinism or Arminian view of salvation...

MOST people that turn to God were not really debeating the finer points of it being TULIP/Cal?Arm etc
Just repented believed received Jesus as their Lord and Saviour...

After that salvation process, then we went into trying to discover what the Lord had in His Bible concerning the "how" of the Christian faith....

I tend to see it this way...
both Cals/Arms preach Christ crucified, resurrection, place faith in Him and be saved...
Differ on the "How saved" not "what saves"

Think Calvinism, at least the TULIP aspect is better at the "how" part than Arminism, but that would NOT mean ONLY those who epouse Cal theology actually get saved!

As one who takes moderate Cal viewpoint, what saves all of us is the Cross Of Christ, and His resurrection validating that event...

So ALL arms are saved by same "how/what" we cals are, by the election and grace of God, just not "seeing" that as one he did it!


If a false gospel then we preach a false message. If a false message, no one can be saved since the message is not true. Ergo we preach a false Christ, a false message, and thus there is no salvation.

Have the what right, which is what saves anyone, not the how yet though...

Speak plain and answer the question

(WAIT) .. you're not even a Calvinist, and don't 'really' hold to reformed theology because you hold to PB views. Though the view itself has reformed aspects to it they are not necessarily linked together. Thus I guess another question is why do you agree with them since they stand in opposition to the fundamental aspect of your view whereby in their view people are eternally saved when they believe and you hold all elect are already eternally saved? That view stands in opposition, with the exception of God choosing the elect.

gues i am "between camps" myself than, as believe in all but limited atonement, but still hold to good ole Dispy theology !

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

"Οὐ τὴν πίστιν λέγει δῶρον Θεοῦ ἀλλὰ τὸ διὰ πίστεως σωθὴναι τοῦτο δῶρόν ἐστι Θεοῦ. ‘He does not say that faith is the gift of God; but to be saved by faith, this is the gift of God.’"
-Quote from Calvin Commentaries note 124

Are you speaking in tongues now?:smilewinkgrin:

 

[Skandelon]

JesusFan,

Brother, I've had to tell you many times to learn the quote feature. Your last post makes it appear Allan has said all that, when in reality your words are mixed in with his. This makes things very confusing and difficult to respond to. There must be a quote box

before and after the person's words to which you are responding. There is a / before the word quote on the ending quote box. It will do it automatically for you if you highlight the section you want to quote and push the bubble in your tool bar. Please practice and learn how to use this feature. Let me know if you need further help.

 

[Allan]

gues i am "between camps" myself than, as believe in all but limited atonement, but still hold to good ole Dispy theology !

I sortof figured out what you were saying.. you might go back and fix your quotes

I agree that the gospel is only speaking of 'what' saves man. It is the good news of the Work of Christ Jesus.

The view of how or the operating mechanics, is not part of the gospel message preached to all men everywhere.

To sum it up.. It is not understanding the theology of salvation which saves but to understand what Christ did and why He had to do it, that message is power of God unto salvation.

Note for your quotes
I will use { in place of this [ . I changed the quote feature to show you what it should look like
{quote} Hello, you silly goose {/quote}

You can manually do this, or just highlight the piece you wish to quote, then hit the quote button. Then once posted look to see if you did it correctly. Edit your post and look over it to make sure you {} are there or your quote feature is in the right places.

 

[Allan]

JesusFan,

Brother, I've had to tell you many times to learn the quote feature. Your last post makes it appear Allan has said all that, when in reality your words are mixed in with his. This makes things very confusing and difficult to respond to. There must be a quote box [quote} before and after the person's words to which you are responding. There is a / before the word quote on the ending quote box. It will do it automatically for you if you highlight the section you want to quote and push the bubble in your tool bar. Please practice and learn how to use this feature. Let me know if you need further help.

hehe.. what he said.

 

[JesusFan]

Are you saying that we believe that those, like yourself, who disagree about Christ's atonement aren't saved? Am I understanding that correctly, because I don't think anyone here has said that.


Do you believe that some of his elect might die while still in that error, or do you believe he will effectually bring them to correct understanding?

think that this involves the "what/how" of salavation itself...

IF we stick to strictly the "Gospel" message here...
ANY who preach that man is a sinner, unable to save himself, must place personal faith in the Cross of Christ, receive Him as your saviour...

that would fall under "what" saves anyone... Death of Jesus paying the sin debt we owe to God , a penal; substitute rendering to God what is now owed Him...

the "how" would be the actual method used by God, calvinism or Arminian view of salvation...

MOST people that turn to God were not really debeating the finer points of it being TULIP/Cal?Arm etc
Just repented believed received Jesus as their Lord and Saviour...

After that salvation process, then we went into trying to discover what the Lord had in His Bible concerning the "how" of the Christian faith....

I tend to see it this way...
both Cals/Arms preach Christ crucified, resurrection, place faith in Him and be saved...
Differ on the "How saved" not "what saves"

Think Calvinism, at least the TULIP aspect is better at the "how" part than Arminism, but that would NOT mean ONLY those who epouse Cal theology actually get saved!

As one who takes moderate Cal viewpoint, what saves all of us is the Cross Of Christ, and His resurrection validating that event...

So ALL arms are saved by same "how/what" we cals are, by the election and grace of God, just not "seeing" that as one he did it!

 

[Allan]

I tend to see it this way...
both Cals/Arms preach Christ crucified, resurrection, place faith in Him and be saved...
Differ on the "How saved" not "what saves"

Actually, both even agree on HOW one is saved, they just differ on the mechanics regards a few aspects of 'how' operates/functions.

 

[savedbymercy]

So one of the Truths that the Gospel of Gods Grace teaches in order to explain why salvation must be all of Grace, is the Truth of mans total depravity or inability due to the fact we are nature dead to God.. Eph 2:

5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved )

See how paul uses that Truth [being dead in sin] to maginify the Gospel of God's Grace ? It takes a quickening, a being made alive, and that by grace...

 

[Allan]

So one of the Truths that the Gospel of Gods Grace teaches in order to explain why salvation must be all of Grace, is the Truth of mans total depravity or inability due to the fact we are nature dead to God.. Eph 2:

5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved )

See how paul uses that Truth [being dead in sin] to maginify the Gospel of God's Grace ? It takes a quickening, a being made alive, and that by grace...

No.. that is some stuff 'added' into one of the truths of the gospel.

 

[savedbymercy]

No.. that is some stuff 'added' into one of the truths of the gospel.

What Eph 2:5 is not speaking about the Gospel of God's Grace ?

 

[Allan]

What Eph 2:5 is not speaking about the Gospel of God's Grace ?

Of course but it does not end at verse 5... in fact it goes on and qualifies that salvation is by grace THROUGH faith. Not 'just' by grace.

Salvation is a gift of God, thus not of works (we get what we earned) so no one can boast.

 

[Aaron]

The fact that you think I would disagree with this only proves you have yet to understand our perspective. Of course there is only one true righteousness, but this is a new revelation just being made clear to these people at that time. You have once again. . . blah . . . blah . . . blah.

Enough already. You keep revising the expression of your position. Boiled down it is the Cross plus some inherent quality that man by nature possesses, some act that he must perform.

Your little court analogy pretty well summed it up.

 

[Aaron]

"Οὐ τὴν πίστιν λέγει δῶρον Θεοῦ ἀλλὰ τὸ διὰ πίστεως σωθὴναι τοῦτο δῶρόν ἐστι Θεοῦ. ‘He does not say that faith is the gift of God; but to be saved by faith, this is the gift of God.’"
-Quote from Calvin Commentaries note 124

Why are you attempting to mislead folks into thinking this is Calvin's commentary, when it is clearly an editor's comment?

But as far as the assertion goes, have ye never read that the fruit of the spirit is . . . faith? It is not a fruit of human nature, not even with "God's help."

 

[Skandelon]

Why are you attempting to mislead folks into thinking this is Calvin's commentary, when it is clearly an editor's comment?

Can you read the hyper link Aaron? It even says "NOTE" and you can even click on it and READ IT YOURSELF, yet you accuse me of being intentionally misleading???

Plus, many Calvinistic greek scholars agree with the assessment of the note...and it would appear Calvin himself agrees as well since he wrote:

"And here we must advert to a very common error in the interpretation of this passage. Many persons restrict the word gift to faith alone (people like Aaron). But Paul is only repeating in other words the former sentiment. His meaning is, not that faith is the gift of God, but that salvation is given to us by God, or, that we obtain it by the gift of God."

So, Calvin himself believes you are in error Aaron. Now, who is misrepresenting things?

But as far as the assertion goes, have ye never read that the fruit of the spirit is . . . faith? It is not a fruit of human nature, not even with "God's help."

Actually "faithfulness" in listed as a fruit of the Spirit. And, as I've already stated, we all agree that faith comes from hearing the words of God, thus faith is a fruit of God work, not mans. We just don't believe that work is irresistible, thus even still your argument has no merit against what we believe, but only against the straw-man you continue to beat on.

 

[Skandelon]

Enough already. You keep revising the expression of your position.

Translation: "If you keep explaining yourself it will be more and more evident that I'm attacking a straw-man, so just hush up and let me define what you believe and attack you as the heretic I think you are."

Boiled down it is the Cross plus some inherent quality that man by nature possesses, some act that he must perform.

Flash news, we both believe that man must "perform" something to be saved, Aaron, you just believe he does it by the effectual work of God and I believe God's work can be resisted, so your straw-man attack actually applies to you as well if you take the premise that faith is a "performance/work" of man.

 

[Aaron]

Flash news, we both believe that man must "perform" something to be saved, Aaron, you just believe he does it by the effectual work of God and I believe God's work can be resisted, so your straw-man attack actually applies to you as well if you take the premise that faith is a "performance/work" of man.

Let's try this one more time.

You do not believe in the total depravity of man. You reject what Paul has said, that the natural man canNOT receive the things of God, that the carnal mind is at enmity with God and canNOT be subject to the law of God. You believe that natural man either receives or rejects the preaching of God's word. You can say that you think faith is a gift of God all you want, when the rubber of noncalvinist tires meets the road, the efficacy of faith rests with man.

Calvinists believe the Scriptures that you reject. We submit to the righteousness of God which says, Create within me a clean heart. It is the new heart that receives and canNOT reject the things of God.

Our old heart is crucified with Christ, and our new heart is wakened in His Resurrection, the Firstborn of the dead. I sleep, but my heart waketh: it is the voice of my beloved that knocketh, saying, Open to me, my sister, my love, my dove, my undefiled: for my head is filled with dew, and my locks with the drops of the night.

For the Calvinist, the efficacy rests with God. It is all His work, and no flesh will glory in his sight.

It's funny, but when I begin to extol the virtues of Calvinism (which is merely the Gospel), the more lurid and defiled noncalvinism appears. The disparity between the views is absolute. Had Whitfield and Wesley attempted to work together, any affection would have evaporated and they would have parted bitter enemies.

 

[Skandelon]

Let's try this one more time.

I couldn't help notice you ignored the first half of my post...you know the part where I rebutted your accusation that I was being purposefully misrepresentative of Calvin?

I don't blame you for skipping right on past that point...

. You reject what Paul has said, that the natural man canNOT receive the things of God,

You mean passage that is followed in the next couple of verses where Paul goes on to explain that the "brethren" there at the Corinth church were too carnal/natural to receive these "things" either? The "deep spiritual things" of God (vs. 10)? Is that what you are referring to?

that the carnal mind is at enmity with God and canNOT be subject to the law of God.

Of course he can't subject himself to the law of God, but where does it say he can't humble himself and repent for his inability to keep the law and believe in the one who fulfilled the law in his stead once confronted by the powerful life-giving gospel message?

More later, got to run. :wavey:

 

[Aaron]

Of course he can't subject himself to the law of God, but where does it say he can't humble himself and repent for his inability to keep the law and believe in the one who fulfilled the law in his stead once confronted by the powerful life-giving gospel message?

Repentence from dead works and faith toward God are the first principles of the doctrine of Christ. It was the preaching of John the Baptist. And so I ask, the baptism of John, is it from God or man?

Of course, it's from God.

And, the natural man canNOT receive the things of God.

More later, got to run.

Don't bother.