How can free will destroy faith in Christ?

[Revmitchell]

If it were true that faith is a gift from God, and one cannot lose their faith, then how is it that free will could destroy said faith in Christ?

Now the statement "Free will destroys faith in Christ" implies:

1. That one has faith in Christ
2. but loses it to do a belief in free will.

Does this mean that those who believe that faith is a direct gift from God also believe that free will of man is pore powerful than the gift God gave?

Those things do not line up.

 

[Scott Downey]

If it were true that faith is a gift from God, and one cannot lose their faith, then how is it that free will could destroy said faith in Christ?

Now the statement "Free will destroys faith in Christ" implies:

1. That one has faith in Christ
2. but loses it to do a belief in free will.

Does this mean that those who believe that faith is a direct gift from God also believe that free will of man is pore powerful than the gift God gave?

Those things do not line up.

You say faith is not a gift.
But everything you have you have received.
And why do you boast as if you have not received it?

! Corinthians 4
6 Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be [c]puffed up on behalf of one against the other. 7 For who makes you differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive? Now if you did indeed receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?

 

[Revmitchell]

You say faith is not a gift.
But everything you have you have received.
And why do you boast as if you have not received it?

! Corinthians 4
6 Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be [c]puffed up on behalf of one against the other. 7 For who makes you differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive? Now if you did indeed receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?

So, no answer to the op? Hmmm

 

[Reformed]

If it were true that faith is a gift from God, and one cannot lose their faith, then how is it that free will could destroy said faith in Christ?

Please correct me if I am wrong, but your creation of this thread seems to be in response to the two threads that @1689Dave started on this topic. I was not a big fan of those threads because, while I do believe saving faith is gifted by God, the threads served no other purpose than to poke non-Calvinists in the eye and to polarize the discussion from the outset. That said, I will attempt to address your comments as best I can.

Speaking in soteriological terms, liberum arbitrium (free will) does not exist. Free will is also referred to as free choice, with "choice" acting as a verb, denoting the will in action. An oft cited definition of free will/choice used by scholars on both sides of the debate is, "The capacity of the human will to be free from any external constraint or imposed necessity." If we accept this definition as accurate, it clearly presents the differences between the Calvinist and non-Calvinist. The Calvinist believes scripture teaches that the sinner is under bondage to sin (Romans 6); spiritually dead (Ephesians 2); and incapable of understanding the things of the Spirit of God (1 Corinthians 2). It is not until the external work of the Holy Spirit works in the individual (Ephesians 2) that the individual is capable of exercising saving faith. When this happens the individual does exercise faith freely but this is not the same as free will. The non-Calvinist doctrine of free will excludes any external work of the Spirit in gifting faith. The doctrine of free will assumes that all men, regardless of their spiritual condition, posses the capability of saving faith. Obviously, the Calvinist rejects this position.

I am sure this thread will soon go off the rails because this topic always seems to go that route. So, I will make this my only post in this thread unless the author of the OP asks me a question directly.

 

[Scott Downey]

So, no answer to the op? Hmmm

How can you say that, when the verse says what you have, you have received, which means it was given to you.
How does God's gift destroy faith, when it confirms and builds it up.

The power of God is creating in us our faith and that is how He keeps us.

Acts 3:16 And His name, through faith in His name, has made this man strong, whom you see and know. Yes, the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

 

[atpollard]

If it were true that faith is a gift from God, and one cannot lose their faith, then how is it that free will could destroy said faith in Christ?

Now the statement "Free will destroys faith in Christ" implies:

1. That one has faith in Christ
2. but loses it to do a belief in free will.

Does this mean that those who believe that faith is a direct gift from God also believe that free will of man is pore powerful than the gift God gave?

Those things do not line up.

You are splitting semantic hairs since you know full well that what you propose is not what was meant by the original post “Free will destroys faith in Christ”.

To answer your questions:

If it were true that faith is a gift from God, and one cannot lose their faith, then how is it that free will could destroy said faith in Christ?

It is true that Faith is a gift from God (as part of “by grace you have been saved through faith”) per Ephesians 2:8, so there is no “IF” about it. Free will could only destroy faith if if there were no God ordained “Perseverance of the Saints”, since this would allow one to walk away from salvation. However, “He who began a good work in you will perfect it” (Philippians 1:6) and “no one” means no one (John 10:29), so the deposit will guarantee the inheritance (Ephesians 1:14) and all those called, will be glorified (Romans 8:30).


Does this mean that those who believe that faith is a direct gift from God also believe that free will of man is more powerful than the gift God gave?

No.

 

[Reformed1689]

If it were true that faith is a gift from God, and one cannot lose their faith, then how is it that free will could destroy said faith in Christ?

Now the statement "Free will destroys faith in Christ" implies:

1. That one has faith in Christ
2. but loses it to do a belief in free will.

Does this mean that those who believe that faith is a direct gift from God also believe that free will of man is pore powerful than the gift God gave?

Those things do not line up.

I don't think free will destroy's faith in Christ. Free will solidifies the NEED for faith in Christ, the gift of faith given by God.

 

[Scott Downey]

Free will led Eve to be deceived by the devil and Adam freely went along with the choice. Free will of a fallen will leads to more sin and further away from Christ. And such thinking about free will is another deception that the person thinks they are free, but they are slaves to depravity.

Deceptions of False Teachers
18 For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped from those who live in error.

19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage.

Everyone is either a slave of the devil and sin, or a slave of God and righteousness. Read Romans 6

Romans 6:6
knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Romans 6:15
[ From Slaves of Sin to Slaves of God ] What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Romans 6:16
Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Romans 6:17
But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Romans 6:18
And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Romans 6:19
I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Romans 6:20
For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Romans 6:22
But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.

So no, you are not free, you are always overcome by another. When overcome by God, you then take on His nature of also being an over comer of the world, sin and the devil and have eternal life as God does. But when overcome by this world, you are overcome by sin, the devil, and destruction and abide in eternal death as Satan does.

Only the Son of God can make you free from sin.

 

[Revmitchell]

Please correct me if I am wrong, but your creation of this thread seems to be in response to the two threads that @1689Dave started on this topic. I was not a big fan of those threads because, while I do believe saving faith is gifted by God, the threads served no other purpose than to poke non-Calvinists in the eye and to polarize the discussion from the outset. That said, I will attempt to address your comments as best I can.

Yes, it is in response to the several threads on the same topic. I agree they are only started to be divisive and not for reasonable discussion.

Speaking in soteriological terms, liberum arbitrium (free will) does not exist. Free will is also referred to as free choice, with "choice" acting as a verb, denoting the will in action. An oft cited definition of free will/choice used by scholars on both sides of the debate is, "The capacity of the human will to be free from any external constraint or imposed necessity."

Not to be contrary but this is a bit pedantic. It is a reference to the ability to choose to accept or reject the offer of grace from God. Further, it is recognized that we are in fact influenced on both sides of the issue. We are influenced by the world and Satan to reject it and influenced by God via His word to accept it.

If we accept this definition as accurate, it clearly presents the differences between the Calvinist and non-Calvinist. The Calvinist believes scripture teaches that the sinner is under bondage to sin (Romans 6); spiritually dead (Ephesians 2); and incapable of understanding the things of the Spirit of God (1 Corinthians 2).

Yes, as you know I am well aware of the calvie position. As you also know I reject it.

It is not until the external work of the Holy Spirit works in the individual (Ephesians 2) that the individual is capable of exercising saving faith. When this happens the individual does exercise faith freely but this is not the same as free will. The non-Calvinist doctrine of free will excludes any external work of the Spirit in gifting faith. The doctrine of free will assumes that all men, regardless of their spiritual condition, posses the capability of saving faith. Obviously, the Calvinist rejects this position.

I know but explaining all of this does not really address the op. What I want to know is how can a calvie claim that faith is a gift of God but that same gift can also be destroyed by free will? This is according to the title of several threads. To tell you the truth I know the answer but it seems to me that in the rush to, as you put it, "poke non-Calvinists in the eye and to polarize the discussion" they seemed to have made an accusation that cannot be supported by even calvinist own doctrine.

I am sure this thread will soon go off the rails because this topic always seems to go that route. So, I will make this my only post in this thread unless the author of the OP asks me a question directly.

Yes it already has. Thank you for the reasoned reply.

 

[Reformed]

What I want to know is how can a calvie claim that faith is a gift of God but that same gift can also be destroyed by free will?

I tried to answer your question by stating that free will does not exist, ergo there is nothing to destroy anything with. My reasons for this were given in my previous post. I know non-Calvinists reject those reasons and that is fine.

Peace, brother.

 

[Revmitchell]

I tried to answer your question by stating that free will does not exist, ergo there is nothing to destroy anything with. My reasons for this were given in my previous post. I know non-Calvinists reject those reasons and that is fine.

Peace, brother.

So you disagree with the of those other threads for that reason?

 

[Reformed1689]

I tried to answer your question by stating that free will does not exist, ergo there is nothing to destroy anything with. My reasons for this were given in my previous post. I know non-Calvinists reject those reasons and that is fine.

Peace, brother.

Calvinists also reject the idea that there is no free will. What Is Free Will? by R.C. Sproul

 

[Reformed]

So you disagree with the of those other threads for that reason?

I am on record as saying that I object to those other two threads because they both started off with a divisive tone. They shut down constructive dialogue before it even began. As to Dave's theological point, he makes the following statement:

"But this [free will*] destroys faith in Christ as savior. Free will is a walk by sight trust in yourself for salvation based on rules you fulfill. So trust is always in self who fulfills them."

While I do not believe free will exists (soteriologically speaking), I do agree that the Calvinist and non-Calvinist views of the human will are incompatible. So, why do I not just say that the non-Calvinist view of free will destroys faith as a gift from God? Because I believe in something called a happy inconsistency. You and I disagree about Calvinism. That is not news. However, I have no reason to doubt that you are a child of God. If I did doubt your profession then I would have to doubt my own because I was a rabid anti-Calvinist for a good portion of my Christian life. The reason I use the term "happy inconsistency" is that even though I believe the non-Calvinist view of the human will is wrong, I rejoice that salvation is not dependent on human understanding or even purity of doctrine. So, while the non-Calvinist would say they believe in salvation by faith alone in Christ alone, I would say that their confession is inconsistent with their view of the human will. However, if their profession is true then they are a Christian in spite of the apparent inconsistency in what they confess and what they believe. Thus, the happy inconsistency.

Again, this is my take and I am not foisting it on you.

 

[Reformed]

Calvinists also reject the idea that there is no free will. What Is Free Will? by R.C. Sproul

There is no such thing as free will soteriologically speaking. That does not mean we do not believe freely. We do. However, we only believe freely after the will has been liberated by the Holy Spirit. Prior to that our will is in bondage.

OK. Unless anyone asks me a direct question, I am out of this thread.

 

[MB]

There is no such thing as free will soteriologically speaking. That does not mean we do not believe freely. We do. However, we only believe freely after the will has been liberated by the Holy Spirit. Prior to that our will is in bondage.

OK. Unless anyone asks me a direct question, I am out of this thread.

When you get more time I would like to hear where you get these ideas. There are slaves who obey there masters and there are slaves who desire to be free. No matter the slavery. To say there is no freewill is ignorant of the truth. I have also disproved that there is a lack of ability to perceive and understand the gospel. Inability is a myth at best because it is not in scripture. Act 28:28 would not exist if it were true. Why would the Lord grant repentance to the Gentiles. ( That's Gentiles as a whole) not some individually elect group. There are no elect Gentiles mentioned in scripture.
MB

 

[MB]

There is no such thing as free will soteriologically speaking. That does not mean we do not believe freely. We do. However, we only believe freely after the will has been liberated by the Holy Spirit. Prior to that our will is in bondage.

OK. Unless anyone asks me a direct question, I am out of this thread.

Of course when you can't prove there is no freewill run?
MB

 

[Dave G]

Those things do not line up.

I agree.

Free will does not destroy faith in Christ.
Free will also does not acquire it, since it is a gift ( Ephesians 2:8 ).

What I want to know is how can a calvie claim that faith is a gift of God but that same gift can also be destroyed by free will?

You'd have to ask @1689Dave

To me, man's will does not destroy God-given faith, and cannot.
But I also think that I understand what he was trying to develop...

That the idea of a free and unbiased will ( that has the ability to either choose God or to reject God ), makes the faith of Christ ( Galatians 3:22 ) that was given to God's children ( Jude 1:3 ) into a hollow thing...
No longer a gift, but something that can be purchased or acquired through an act of the will.
It denies the Scriptural principle that all truly good things come from God ( John 3:27, 1 Corinthians 4:7, James 1:17 ).

As for lumping everyone who looks like a "Calvinist" together:

Not all "Calvinists" are in lock step with one another...
Neither are all "Arminians".

To me, they all have their own opinions and agreements, as well as disagreements.

 

[Dave G]

You say faith is not a gift.
But everything you have you have received.
And why do you boast as if you have not received it?

Amen.

" John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven. " ( John 3:27 ).

" For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake; " ( Philippians 1:29 ).

" But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
13 which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." ( John 1:12-13 ).

" And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given." ( Matthew 13:10-11 ).

 

[Dave G]

I have also disproved that there is a lack of ability to perceive and understand the gospel.

" For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith." ( Romans 1:16-17 ).

" For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." ( 1 Corinthians 1:18 ).

" But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." ( 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 ).

There are no elect Gentiles mentioned in scripture.

Romans 8:31-33.
Ephesians 1:4-13.
1 Thessalonians 1:1-4.
2 Thessalonians 2:13-14.
1 Peter 1:1-2.

 

[Reformed1689]

There is no such thing as free will soteriologically speaking. That does not mean we do not believe freely. We do. However, we only believe freely after the will has been liberated by the Holy Spirit. Prior to that our will is in bondage.

OK. Unless anyone asks me a direct question, I am out of this thread.

Right but that is arguing semantics. Calvinists DO believe in a free will, just distinguish what does that will desire.