How can free will destroy faith in Christ?

[Reformed]

Right but that is arguing semantics. Calvinists DO believe in a free will, just distinguish what does that will desire.

David, with respect, I think it more than semantics. I am articulating a view held by many Reformed theologians. They view free will as a soteriological doctrine. They separate it from the actions of a liberated (from sin) will. I guess the reason I am such a stickler on this is because of the common use of the term "free will" in a soteriological context. If you and I see this a little differently, that is OK. Calvinists and Reformed folks have plenty of intramural squabbles but we are still on the same team.

 

[Reformed1689]

David, with respect, I think it more than semantics. I am articulating a view held by many Reformed theologians. They view free will as a soteriological doctrine. They separate it from the actions of a liberated (from sin) will. I guess the reason I am such a stickler on this is because of the common use of the term "free will" in a soteriological context. If you and I see this a little differently, that is OK. Calvinists and Reformed folks have plenty of intramural squabbles but we are still on the same team.

We will have to agree to disagree.

 

[Revmitchell]

I agree.

Free will does not destroy faith in Christ.
Free will also does not acquire it, since it is a gift ( Ephesians 2:8 ).

So the other threads are in error?

That the idea of a free and unbiased will

I dont know anyone who believes that.

 

[robycop3]

My only comment in this thread will be that if everyone was already predestinated with no chance to change their status, then why worship at all? Why preach? Why have Bibles? Why did Jesus issue the "Great Commission"?

And again, I know what MY OWN EXPERIENCE in coming to Jesus was, & I thank Him for forgiving my sins & making me part of His kingdom. Jesus knocks on all "doors", but not rorever, and, thankfully, I finally answered mine before He went away.

 

[1689Dave]

If it were true that faith is a gift from God, and one cannot lose their faith, then how is it that free will could destroy said faith in Christ?

Now the statement "Free will destroys faith in Christ" implies:

1. That one has faith in Christ
2. but loses it to do a belief in free will.

Does this mean that those who believe that faith is a direct gift from God also believe that free will of man is pore powerful than the gift God gave?

Those things do not line up.

How? It places faith in your faith and not directly in Christ where it belongs. You trust in yourself to keep your part of the business deal you perceive the gospel to be.

 

[Revmitchell]

How? It places faith in your faith and not directly in Christ where it belongs. You trust in yourself to keep your part of the business deal you perceive the gospel to be.

I dont do any of those things but this does not answer the op

 

[1689Dave]

I dont do any of those things but this does not answer the op

It works like this. In the Ten Commandments people trusted in their free will obedience to save them from God's wrath. Free will also sees the gospel as law, and those who do, also have faith in their obedience (choosing to believe) to save them.

 

[Scott Downey]

My only comment in this thread will be that if everyone was already predestined with no chance to change their status, then why worship at all? Why preach? Why have Bibles? Why did Jesus issue the "Great Commission"?

And again, I know what MY OWN EXPERIENCE in coming to Jesus was, & I thank Him for forgiving my sins & making me part of His kingdom. Jesus knocks on all "doors", but not forever, and, thankfully, I finally answered mine before He went away.

Most people labor only for the fire.
Even Christians, their works will be tested on Judgement Day by fire and it is possible all of them will be burned up, except for the work God did in saving them by making them born of God.
If your works are not those good works prepared beforehand by God for you to do, they will be fuel for the fire.

10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Christ said everyone will be salted with fire. The fire will burn them up, their lawless works and them also who Jesus tells He never knew them. Christian works may or may not burn up. A saved person's spirit is God's handiwork. But the good works they do will be the ones God preordained-predestined beforehand, as in planned out for them to do. So yes, it is all predestined what will occur before your born. God made you and everything about you, all your days were written in His book when they had not yet happened.

Habakkuk 2
13 Behold, is it not of the Lord of hosts
That the peoples labor to feed the fire,
And nations weary themselves in vain?

Psalm 139
13 For You formed my inward parts;
You covered me in my mother’s womb.
14 I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
Marvelous are Your works,
And that my soul knows very well.
15 My frame was not hidden from You,
When I was made in secret,
And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16 Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed.
And in Your book they all were written,
The days fashioned for me,
When as yet there were none of them.

 

[Revmitchell]

It works like this. In the Ten Commandments people trusted in their free will obedience to save them from God's wrath. Free will also sees the gospel as law, and those who do, also have faith in their obedience (choosing to believe) to save them.

None of that is true. Believing is not OT law. Neither is it works. You need to stop telling people what they believe.

 

[1689Dave]

None of that is true. Believing is not OT law. Neither is it works. You need to stop telling people what they believe.

Free will turns the gospel into law and grace into works. IF Salvation is conditional.

 

[Revmitchell]

Free will turns the gospel into law and grace into works. IF Salvation is conditional.

Works in scripture is a reference to ot law. It was never applied another way. Salvation is not conditional. God gives it freely to anyone who wants it. However this has nothing to do with the op. Stay on topic.

 

[Reformed1689]

My only comment in this thread will be that if everyone was already predestinated with no chance to change their status, then why worship at all? Why preach? Why have Bibles? Why did Jesus issue the "Great Commission"?

Simple. Because we are commanded to and that is how God has chosen to enact his purposes.

 

[1689Dave]

Works in scripture is a reference to ot law. It was never applied another way. Salvation is not conditional. God gives it freely to anyone who wants it. However this has nothing to do with the op. Stay on topic.

How about those who don't want it....Apostle Paul for example?

 

[Revmitchell]

How about those who don't want it....Apostle Paul for example?

Off topic

 

[MB]

How? It places faith in your faith and not directly in Christ where it belongs. You trust in yourself to keep your part of the business deal you perceive the gospel to be.

It's the gospel that gives us faith. Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Are you telling us that you don't trust your self when it comes to being saved. More than anything in Calvinism Salvation has to be the most important and according to what you've said in the past you don't know for sure you are saved. You have convinced your self that you are which is trusting in your self. I remember the day I was saved and what took place like it was just a moment ago. For me that was a very special day in my life. It changed my perceptions,my desires. My way of life. I knew right then that the Holy Spirit was with in me. I knew that I was saved. It was a relief to know I was not hell bound anymore. That I was being led by the Spirit from that moment on.
MB

 

[percho]

because of this, even as through ( eating of the tree of free will ) one man the sin did enter into the world, and through the sin the death; and thus to all men the death did pass through, for that all did sin; Rom 5:12 Percho YLT

Destroyed? Faith in God?

 

[MB]

because of this, even as through ( eating of the tree of free will ) one man the sin did enter into the world, and through the sin the death; and thus to all men the death did pass through, for that all did sin; Rom 5:12 Percho YLT

Destroyed? Faith in God?

If true then show us where in the Bible it says God took away our freewill? especially since we had freewill in the beginning.
MB

 

[agedman]

If true then show us where in the Bible it says God took away our freewill? especially since we had freewill in the beginning.
MB

Perhaps it would be better to present that free will existed other than in the Christ and in believers,

The OT uses free will in the title of offerings. It does not suggest that folks had free will, but made free will sacrifices.

It was customary for folks to offer life sacrificially as some appeal for health and wealth. Such is documented cross culturally in every place.

The Lord pointed out such sacrifice was scarce even for a friend, much less for an enemy combatant.


Another OT presentation considers the volunteer aspect for some mission. Again that is not presented as one incapable actually attaining, but service.

So, when the Scriptures use the words “free will” (exception- Christ and believers) it is in service not in accepting or attaining unless it is in hope of personal gain.

Do you find something different?

 

[1689Dave]

It's the gospel that gives us faith. Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Are you telling us that you don't trust your self when it comes to being saved. More than anything in Calvinism Salvation has to be the most important and according to what you've said in the past you don't know for sure you are saved. You have convinced your self that you are which is trusting in your self. I remember the day I was saved and what took place like it was just a moment ago. For me that was a very special day in my life. It changed my perceptions,my desires. My way of life. I knew right then that the Holy Spirit was with in me. I knew that I was saved. It was a relief to know I was not hell bound anymore. That I was being led by the Spirit from that moment on.
MB

“And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.” Acts 16:14 (KJV 1900)
Compare to the Pharisees whom God hardened their hearts so the could not believe.

 

[1689Dave]

Off topic

Just sayin' nobody wants God in truth unless first born again.