How can Jesus make this claim ...

[kyredneck]

If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

Who is he asking to come the natural man or the spiritual one?

He is calling any man and every man who will come.

Thirst denotes life. Those 'coming' have been quickened already. John 3:21

6 Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. Mt 5

These are fortunate because it is God that has wrought within them. The natural man devoid of the Spirit has no such longing for righteousness.

 

[loDebar]

The Holy Spirit's role is to deal with sinners, preparing one's heart to understand the need and Jesus as the solution. The Holy Spirit draws men but the ultimate decision is left to the sinner. Reference the Parable of the Sower, some Word does not lead to Salvation

 

[The Archangel]

The very fact that Adam sinned proves the free will of man. Adam didn't have to sin; he chose to sin (I Timothy 2:14). Adam's sin did not change the free will of man, it simply made sin inherent.

If it is so, as you suggest, that "Adam's sin did not change the free will of man," you would have to affirm that the Genesis 6 passage about the heart of man desiring only evil continually and the and the Jeremiah 17 passage about the heart of man being deceitful above all things and desperately wicked also applied to Adam before he sinned.

Now, you might reply that Adam's sin becoming "inherent" is what changed the heart and the heart is not the will. However, the Jesus' words in Matthew 15 about murder, adultery, etc. coming out of the heart would mean that Adam was created with such a heart...

What say you?

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[Mikey]

The very fact that Adam sinned proves the free will of man. Adam didn't have to sin; he chose to sin (I Timothy 2:14). Adam's sin did not change the free will of man, it simply made sin inherent.

not post fall it doesn't.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

Ok, just for you ...

You're too kind....

[John 6:44 NIV] "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."

SINCE men have FREE WILL, how can Jesus make the claim that "No one" can (is able to) come to him?

That's not what Jesus said in its entirety. He said, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him." That is far different than, "No man can come to me."

No one is able to come Him unless the Father draws them. The Father draws every man (John 1:9; I Timothy 2:4; Titus 2:11) and every man has to choose to respond to the drawing.

Is it not true that some, if not most, that do come to Jesus come because they choose to?

It is true, yes. All men who come to Jesus come because they choose to.

SINCE men have FREE WILL, how can Jesus make the promise that he will "raise" ALL that come to him?
Is it not true that even if God draws all, not all will choose to believe and some will believe for only a season?

It is true, yes. Some will choose not to believe even though they've be given the opportunity.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

If it is so, as you suggest, that "Adam's sin did not change the free will of man," you would have to affirm that the Genesis 6 passage about the heart of man desiring only evil continually and the and the Jeremiah 17 passage about the heart of man being deceitful above all things and desperately wicked also applied to Adam before he sinned.

I certainly would not claim to have all the answers; but, it would definitely seem, by the very fact that Adam sinned, that he was created with the propensity to sin.

Now, you might reply that Adam's sin becoming "inherent" is what changed the heart and the heart is not the will. However, the Jesus' words in Matthew 15 about murder, adultery, etc. coming out of the heart would mean that Adam was created with such a heart...

What say you?

There can be no doubt that heart of man was greatly affected by the fall simply by creating a distance and lack of fellowship with his Creator. Eve was deceived and chose to sin. Adam was not deceived yet still chose to sin. After Adam and Eve, we are born sinners (Romans 5:12) and therefore sin is in our very nature.

This in no way negates the free will of man (unless, as Doc is trying to interject, that man is not free NOT to sin). Free will is the freedom to choose or reject the remedy for sin. Adam had that choice, and every one of his ancestors have the same choice.

 

[TCassidy]

Non sequitur...

No, it's not. You said "there is far too much scriptural evidence that supports the free will of man." I asked for just one verse that says the will of the lost man is free as opposed to being in bondage to the law of sin and death.

I think the problem may be that you can't provide a single verse so you make the specious claim of it being a non-sequitur.

 

[TCassidy]

Bob, read of Peter's experience in Herod's prison.

Acts 12:6 And when Herod would have brought him forth, the same night Peter was sleeping between two soldiers, bound with two chains: and the keepers before the door kept the prison.
7 And, behold, the angel of the Lord came upon him, and a light shined in the prison: and he smote Peter on the side, and raised him up, saying, Arise up quickly. And his chains fell off from his hands.
8 And the angel said unto him, Gird thyself, and bind on thy sandals. And so he did. And he saith unto him, Cast thy garment about thee, and follow me.

This passage is a picture of our salvation.

Before God saves us, we are like Peter, sleeping in the darkness, oblivious to our sin, and not able to see the light of the glory of the gospel of Christ.

Our sins chained us so that we could not escape, even if we had wanted to. We were under God’s sentence of death.

While we were in this desperate and helpless condition, God broke in with the light of His glory, woke us out of our spiritual slumber, and caused our chains to fall off so that we could willingly and joyfully follow Him out of this prison of death.

Charles Wesley, brother of John Wesley, founder of the Methodist Church wrote of this passage in his great hymn, "And Can it Be."

Long my imprisoned spirit lay fast bound in sin and nature’s night;

Thine eye diffused a quick’ning ray, I woke, the dungeon flamed with light;

My chains fell off, my heart was free; I rose, went forth and followed Thee.

John Wesley was, of course, a classical Arminian, but even his brother, Charles, understood that our heart being set free is the result of God's quickening (regeneration) and not the cause of it.

 

[The Archangel]

I certainly would not claim to have all the answers; but, it would definitely seem, by the very fact that Adam sinned, that he was created with the propensity to sin.

This is a dangerous position to hold. You would have to deny the Genesis account of God declaring everything "Very good" to hold the position you're espousing here. Having the freedom to sin and the propensity to sin are two very different things. Having a propensity to sin is the mark of man after the fall, not before, as Paul states in Romans 5.

In short, nothing about your position matches with the biblical text.

There can be no doubt that heart of man was greatly affected by the fall simply by creating a distance and lack of fellowship with his Creator. Eve was deceived and chose to sin. Adam was not deceived yet still chose to sin. After Adam and Eve, we are born sinners (Romans 5:12) and therefore sin is in our very nature.

This in no way negates the free will of man (unless, as Doc is trying to interject, that man is not free NOT to sin). Free will is the freedom to choose or reject the remedy for sin. Adam had that choice, and every one of his ancestors have the same choice.

This is Pelagianism. Several won't like that label, but that's exactly what it is.

Also, you're statements do not follow logically. You define free will as "the freedom to choose or reject the remedy for sin" and then state "Adam had that choice." The problem with this line of thinking is that Adam's sin had noting to do with a remedy for sin; his choice was between obedience and disobedience. There was no thought of "salvation" at that point as, before the fall, he was not in any need of salvation.

What is more, you'd have to posit that people who have never heard the Gospel have some type of choice--thought they've never heard the Gospel. Even more, what do you do about Romans 1 when Paul tells us we all "suppress the truth in unrighteousness?" That certainly doesn't sound like a "freedom" to choose. It seems as if, left to ourselves, we run from the truth, not toward it.

The Archangel

 

[loDebar]

If it is so, as you suggest, that "Adam's sin did not change the free will of man," you would have to affirm that the Genesis 6 passage about the heart of man desiring only evil continually and the and the Jeremiah 17 passage about the heart of man being deceitful above all things and desperately wicked also applied to Adam before he sinned.

Now, you might reply that Adam's sin becoming "inherent" is what changed the heart and the heart is not the will. However, the Jesus' words in Matthew 15 about murder, adultery, etc. coming out of the heart would mean that Adam was created with such a heart...

What say you?

Blessings,

The Archangel

no, Sin is through free will, Man being body and eternal soul, when was this choice made.? The body does not sin but the soul does.

When did sin first occur and were we part of it then?

 

[The Archangel]

no, Sin is through free will, Man being body and eternal soul, when was this choice made.? The body does not sin but the soul does.

When did sin first occur and were we part of it then?

The whole "The body does not sin but the soul does" is actual Gnosticism. This thought is as far from orthodox Christianity as it gets.

The Archangel

 

[tyndale1946]

The whole "The body does not sin but the soul does" is actual Gnosticism. This thought is as far from orthodox Christianity as it gets.

The Archangel

Well then there no reason for resurrecting the body just clean up the soul and take it to heaven?... Really?... Is this board getting weirder or have I just been here to long?... Brother Glen

 

[The Archangel]

Well then there no reason for resurrecting the body just clean up the soul and take it to heaven?... Really?... Is this board getting weirder or have I just been here to long?... Brother Glen

True. And, if I may add, if Gnosticism is right, there was no reason for Jesus to become man since His obedience done in the body for our benefit would also have no reason to be done in the body.

The Archangel

 

[Robert William]

How would you explain this verse, atpollard?
John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

Or this one?
Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Simple, the natural man will NOT thirst.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Robert William]

Thirst denotes life. Those 'coming' have been quickened already. John 3:21

6 Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. Mt 5

These are fortunate because it is God that has wrought within them. The natural man devoid of the Spirit has no such longing for righteousness.

Kyrednenck, the sound doctrine question is, who will embrace the gospel??

 

[kyredneck]

Kyrednenck, the sound doctrine question is, who will embrace the gospel??

Those to whom He grants repentance, of course!

 

[Mikey]

Well then there no reason for resurrecting the body just clean up the soul and take it to heaven?... Really?... Is this board getting weirder or have I just been here to long?... Brother Glen

if you think this is weird, don't go on Christian Forums its full of weirdness and heresy. this is relatively normal

 

[Yeshua1]

Kyrednenck, the sound doctrine question is, who will embrace the gospel??

Those who are his sheep!

 

[Pastor_Bob]

I asked for just one verse that says the will of the lost man is free as opposed to being in bondage to the law of sin and death.

The very request is flawed, Tom. Man has a free will in spite of the fact that our flesh is still in bondage. This doesn't just apply to a lost man; it applies to you and me as well.

Paul was most certainly a saved man when he wrote, "For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin." Romans 7:22-25

Paul clearly illustrates and challenges us to exercise our free will when he said, "Let not [do not let] sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should [choose to] obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye [Choose not to yield] your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield [choose to yield] yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace." Romans 6:12-14

In other words, we do not have to sin. When we do sin, we have chosen to sin. We have yielded - we have obeyed the law of sin in our body.

I think the problem may be that you can't provide a single verse so you make the specious claim of it being a non-sequitur.

You may not agree with my interpretation, Tom, but I'll always have a verse to back up my posts.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

Before God saves us, we are like Peter, sleeping in the darkness, oblivious to our sin, and not able to see the light of the glory of the gospel of Christ.

I can see how this could be an analogy of our salvation, with one exception. Peter was most certainly aware of his predicament. Peter's desire was to be freed, although he knew he could not free himself. He knew he was chained and needed divine intervention to be freed. That is why the church was praying around the clock for him.