How can Jesus make this claim ...

[Benjamin]

I'm sorry, sir, but it seems you have a problem with the biblical teaching that God will have compassion on some, and not others when it comes to saving them.

No, I have no problem with Biblical teaching whatsoever but I do have a problem with your interpretational proof-texting which dance around the true meanings in scripture, which in this case have to do with His judgment, and especially the falsehoods presented towards God attributes in order to fit your soteriological views.

God didn’t plan for or “predestine” that people go to Hell.

Mat 25:41

(41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

The mere suggestion that a God of Love designed the creatures in His world just to suffer in Hell for eternity as His plan is beyond foolishness. No, God planned for redemption in His Son:

Eph 1:4

(4) According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

As that pesky little verse that always get in the way of the Determinist’s doctrine mandates we are commanded to believe in His Son because His love is to all:

John 3:16

(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The invitation is extended to all:

Mat 22:2-10

(2) The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,

(3) And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

(4) Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.

(5) But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:

(6) And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.

(7) But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

(8) Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.

(9) Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.

(10) So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

Act 17:30-31

(30) And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

(31) Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.


It seems Determinists love to argue against God’s love for all, that seems pretty messed up from my perspective of His love, but I suppose such can be expected:

Rom 2:4

(4) Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

It is apparent that God’s love, grace and mercy extend beyond the Determinist’s claims:

Isa 45:22

(22) Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

2Pe 3:9

(9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

If a person ends up in Hell it wasn’t God’s plan for their life but it proves they have absolutely no excuse at judgment. God loves His creatures, He is patient, longsuffering and provides the opportunity of salvation for them.

Psa 86:15

(15) But thou, O Lord, art a God full of compassion, and gracious, longsuffering, and plenteous in mercy and truth.


Yet, disturbingly so, Determinists, strangely, go against the scriptural revelation of the Joy brought into all the world of the Good News and try to make the excuse (Romans 1:20) for people that God doesn’t love them, never did, never will, as to say, “sorry it wasn’t in the luck of the draw…” “…according to my insightful and precious soteriological view.”

A sad and dark message indeed, far from “Good News” and far from understanding the Truth of the Nature of God.

 

[Dave G]

God didn’t plan for or “predestine” that people go to Hell.

I agree.
Hell was created for the Devil and his angels.

But He also knew what free will choice Adam would make, and then used that for His glorification in saving sinners, and in judging sinners.
It's all about Him and His Son, especially, and it always was.

WE offended Him. WE are guilty every last one, before Him for crimes against Him...and like the State with the death penalty, He has the right to pardon whom He wishes, and reserve for judgment those who are guilty, to show the power of the State and to show that His wrath is real.

As that pesky little verse that always get in the way of the Determinist’s doctrine mandates we are commanded to believe in His Son because His love is to all:

In my opinion, that "pesky little verse" that many who read the Bible ( and seem to cover everything else in it over with, like a blanket, in their wish to make God into something that He isn't... all loving to everyone ) is just one verse among 31,102 things that He has to say.

He is not subject to man's faulty understanding, sir, it is up to His children to believe every word, even John 3:16.

My observation is, that most people who approach the living God, do so on their terms, not His.

It seems Determinists love to argue against God’s love for all, that seems pretty messed up from my perspective of His love, but I suppose such can be expected:

Those of us that believe all of His words, declare what He says in the parts that some keep trying to explain away as not meaning what they say, it seems.

It is apparent that God’s love, grace and mercy extend beyond the Determinist’s claims:

"Apparent"? You mean you don't know for sure? To me it is clear that His mercy extends to all in this life, but only to His children as far as eternity is concerned.

Here's one of the verses you posted, which I've expanded one verse to either side to show context:

" But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. ( 2 Peter 3:8-10 )

I remember seeing this verse and hearing it read countless times when I was in "Traditionalist" churches. Then one day, I was reading the entire book of 2 Peter, and the context hit me:


In verse 9, the "us-ward" are the "beloved" from verse 8, which are the " ...to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:" of 2 Peter 1:1.

So, in context, God is not willing that any of the beloved perish, but that all the beloved should come to repentance.
His children, Christ's sheep.

Isolated and out of context, it gets used all the time in an effort to show that God is not willing that any of mankind perish, but that all of mankind should come to repentance.

The God of His word does not "try" to do anything. He does it, because He is all-powerful, and mankind cannot and does not have anything to say about it.

If a person ends up in Hell it wasn’t God’s plan for their life but it proves they have absolutely no excuse at judgment. God loves His creatures, He is patient, longsuffering and provides the opportunity of salvation for them.

Respectfully, if a person ends up in Hell, it was because He didn't save them...purchasing eternal life with their own efforts to believe on His Son, by "making a decision" to "accept Christ", is not what the Bible teaches.

It is what men teach.


However, if you've truly believed on Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, then you are one of the beloved...

So what are you objecting to?

That mankind as a whole doesn't "stand a chance"?
We don't...we are completely at His mercy as rebellious sinners.

I wish we all "had a chance" to atone for what we've done...but then that would make that "chance" dependent upon our own efforts to gain His favor, and not His right to bestow it.
To me, you're looking at Him with some sort of faulty expectation that He has an obligation to extend His mercy to condemned criminals, and that we can negotiate the terms of our release...

We can't.

Salvation is by grace ( God's efforts ) not by works ( man's efforts ).
That is the simplicity of Christ.

It's all about Him, and always will be.



This is my last post to you in this thread, Benjamin.
May He bless you greatly, sir.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

This thread is closed.

Six Hour Warning
This thread will be closed sometime after 7 PM Pacific.