Bob dylan had one thing right, as you can serve the devil, or the Lord, but got to serve somebody!
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How can Jesus make this claim ...
- Thread starter atpollard
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You do realize that you asked for a clarification on the OP of this topic. That was one of two basic questions based on General Baptist sotierology[sic] that I raised concerning a verse frequently “proof-texted” by Particular Baptists to reject Free Will sotierology[sic].
That is not a personal attack it is an observation.
That is not running away from the question. One cannot provide a response and be deemed to have run away. One cannot remain in the discussion and be logically deemed to have run away. You accusation as such is a logical fallacy known as an ad hominem.
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Well if you are insulted by that, its on you, that does not make it an insult. What it is, is a statement of fact that you created an argument that is not being made in order to be able to disprove the argument. You are guilty of that logical fallacy. Again not an insult just a statement of fact.
If you are going to claim some level of superiority on Soteriology you need to learn to spell that word first. As Tom has said in other posts it discredits your "superiority". In other words if you cannot spell what it is there is no reason to believe you understand it with any great level of intelligence.
Another common accusation from particulars.
Oh I do, I just do not like the way our positions get twisted by folks like yourself.
Yea,I'm sure.
Wake up, Tom..... I did answer it.
It seems like this is all they have in this thread.
Why dodge the question? Can you answer it or not? I can.
Now I have addressed the verse cited in the op before:
John 6:44
And you have actually dodged one of my questions (unlike what I have done in this thread) before:
Since when is reaching out and receiving a gift also considered part of the giving of the gift?
I do not believe anyone can lose their salvation. I Peter 1:3-5 makes that clear. What I also believe is that God draws people but does not regenerate them with the drawing. He opens a hard heart and then He allows them to choose or not to choose to come to Him. He designed that plan and is sovereign throughout it because He wants it that way.
Once one is saved he is kept by the power of God until we receive our full redemption. The mistake particular folks make is comparing the fruit of salvation, which is being kept in salvation, to coming to Christ. The two are not comparable. You like to think they are because of the use of the words "free-will", "decision", or "choose". What you all are doing is comparing apple to refrigerators.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Therein lies my strength, I made no claim to superiority. I only had to be smart enough to ask an honest question:
MY QUESTION:
(Paraphrase: If a man must choose to believe, then why can he not later choose to disbelieve?).
It falls to the person attempting to answer to be smart enough to answer. I know when I have heard an answer and when someone is just blowing smoke.
YOUR RESPONSES:
So why is it that so far I seem to be just choking on your smoke?
(and I will work on learning to spell "Soteriology". Do you have any plans to learn to answer questions about soteriology?)
Revmitchell, let's see if I understand all the dancing you are doing.
The question was:
Now you are saying: "I do not hold to what he posted, I reject that position,"
So now you are saying that you do NOT believe in "free will" and that you do NOT believe that lost man has the ability to choose?
Interesting turn around. Are you now a "calvinist?"
The question was:
That question is based on your insistence that man has "free will" and has the ability to "choose" to believe.
Now you are saying: "I do not hold to what he posted, I reject that position,"
So now you are saying that you do NOT believe in "free will" and that you do NOT believe that lost man has the ability to choose?
Interesting turn around. Are you now a "calvinist?"
Where did I ever assert that those who believe in Particular Redemption are "superior" to those who deny it?
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Because it requires an action to be performed by the person who is receiving the gift, instead of the gift being dropped right in your lap by the giver.
It's like the difference between God handing you an apple from a tree, and you having to reach out to get it...
...and God leading you up to the tree blindfolded, Him picking an apple from it, pressing it into your hand, and telling you, "This is an apple, it's yours." .
Who gets the credit in each case?
In the first, man and God cooperate. In the second, God does all the work.
What's the difference between the two?
The first is a reward, because you did something to get it, the second is a gift, because you did nothing to get it.
" For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." ( Romans 6:23 )
If you have to do anything to receive a gift, it's no longer a gift.
If you have to do anything ( work ) to gain salvation, then it's no longer God doing it ( grace ).
Please see Romans 11:5-6.
Election is what makes it a gift.
Best wishes to you and yours, sir.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
I would never tell someone that God loves them...until after they've believed on Christ.
The apostles didn't do it, so why should I?
Are you telling me that you would preach the Gospel to someone, and not preach it exactly as the apostles did?
Paul never told anyone that God loved them, until after they believed... and then he told them this, by inspiration:
" But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." ( Romans 5:8 )
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Since when do dead ppl reach for anything?
Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?” Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.[Acts 2:37-38]
When asked what should they do, Peter never said, “Ask Jesus to come into your heart”, neither did he say, “God loves you”, but to “Repent and be baptized.”
In Acts 16, the Philippian jailer asked ”Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”[vs 30b] There was nary a mention of, “Why sir, just ask Jesus to come into your heart”, nor was there this, “God loves you”, he just said , “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”[vs 31a] When we witness to ppl, there is no need of saying those things. But just as Jesus said in Mark 1:15 “Repent and believe in the gospel.”
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Back to the OP:
Because man's will is not "free", it is biased against God and His ways ( Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-17, John 3:19-20 ).
In answer to the second question, "Yes, that's what "free" will usually means".
That most do not come because they made the wrong choice.
Therefore, when God asks someone ( who believes that their will is what made all the difference ) , what they stand on, they would probably tell Him, "Because I chose you", or "because I believed" ( John 3:16, John 3:36, John 5:24 ).
When He asks someone ( who believes that His will made all the difference ), what they stand on, they will tell Him, " Your mercy and grace.", and "I believed because you gave me that privilege ( Philippians 1:29, John 6:29, John 10:26 )" , in context with all the above.
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Throw in Romans 8:5-9, too.
Because Christ was talking to His contemporaries that would have/have not been following Yahweh in that verse. It is an historical narrative. It is not didactic teaching. He is showing them (Mostly hypocritical Jewish Leaders) why they are not believing and following Christ--because they are not really following His Father. God is not drawing them to Christ because they are not His to begin with. This conversation and the truths contained in it find their meaning first with His contemporaries.
Luke 18
13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other;for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”
You're assuming that God's curse from Genesis 3 takes away man's ability to respond to the Gospel. That's simply not true. Christ taught us that the realities of the verse I just quoted can happen. I believe Scripture over Calvin-ism
No, I am assuming that the bible is true and that the lost man is in bondage to the law of sin and death.
Does the law of Sin and death take away man's ability to respond to the Gospel?
The bondage makes the lost man the enemy of God who not only will not but cannot respond. Look at the picture of Peter in prison in Acts 12.
Peter’s deliverance is a picture of how God saves sinners. Probably Charles Wesley had this scene in mind when he wrote the verse of his great hymn, “And Can It Be?”:
Long my imprisoned spirit lay fast bound in sin and nature’s night;
Thine eye diffused a quick’ning ray, I woke, the dungeon flamed with light;
My chains fell off, my heart was free; I rose, went forth and followed Thee.
Before God saves us, we are like Peter, sleeping in the darkness, insensitive to our sin, and not able to see the light of the glory of the gospel of Christ. Our sins chained us so that we could not escape, even if we had wanted to. We were under God’s sentence of death. While we were in this desperate and helpless condition, God broke in with the light of His glory, woke us out of our spiritual slumber, and caused our chains to fall off so that we could willingly and joyfully follow Him out of this prison of death.
All of God, none of me.
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