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How can "sola scriptura" be possible?

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BRIANH

Member
When one discusses Sola Scriptura with opponents; inevitably it breaks down just like it has. The Bible verses given provide ample support for this view. The opponents appeals to the Protestant divisions and instead point to the vague and undefined "tradition".
Because the people on THIS forum appear to be Orthodox or Anglican, two groups I do not usually engage, one has a small net presence and the other is pummeling itself without me, I am curious what tradition (s) you are appealing to. I am also curious and perhaps this is easier to answer; what authoratative body or set of writings can one go to and find which traditions are considered infallible; ie on the same par as those of us who adhere to an infallible Bible.
Thanks
 

Thinkingstuff

Active Member
BRIANH said:
When one discusses Sola Scriptura with opponents; inevitably it breaks down just like it has. The Bible verses given provide ample support for this view. The opponents appeals to the Protestant divisions and instead point to the vague and undefined "tradition".
Because the people on THIS forum appear to be Orthodox or Anglican, two groups I do not usually engage, one has a small net presence and the other is pummeling itself without me, I am curious what tradition (s) you are appealing to. I am also curious and perhaps this is easier to answer; what authoratative body or set of writings can one go to and find which traditions are considered infallible; ie on the same par as those of us who adhere to an infallible Bible.
Thanks

I am not Orthodox, Catholic, or Anglican. I go to a SBC. I have for years. I have not noticed that any post on this thread ever claimed that the bible is not the word of God. Now there may be some disagreements about what you mean when you say infallible. But nobody on this thread will say that the bible says anything other than what God wanted to say. The orthodox christian faiths (all three above) looks at tradition in two ways. Faithful apostolic transmition. and that a living commentary ( my words not theirs) on the meaning of scriptures. They believe that the oral tradition comes first and that the scriptures are born out of the church by the power and inspiration of God not the other way around. And when you look at it chronologically they've got a point.
 

BRIANH

Member
Thinkingstuff said:
I am not Orthodox, Catholic, or Anglican. I go to a SBC. I have for years. I have not noticed that any post on this thread ever claimed that the bible is not the word of God. Now there may be some disagreements about what you mean when you say infallible. But nobody on this thread will say that the bible says anything other than what God wanted to say. The orthodox christian faiths (all three above) looks at tradition in two ways. Faithful apostolic transmition. and that a living commentary ( my words not theirs) on the meaning of scriptures. They believe that the oral tradition comes first and that the scriptures are born out of the church by the power and inspiration of God not the other way around. And when you look at it chronologically they've got a point.
So are there any traditions not found in scripture or traditions that illuminate a proper understanding of scripture that are particularly important to you specifically. I do not know the players and am compiling a program to better contribute to the conversation.
 

Thinkingstuff

Active Member
BRIANH said:
So are there any traditions not found in scripture or traditions that illuminate a proper understanding of scripture that are particularly important to you specifically. I do not know the players and am compiling a program to better contribute to the conversation.

Yes. That Jesus is Homoosious with the Father and the Spirit. That the three are Hypostasis that exist together (not one at a time) but three persons that does not contradict the oneness of God. This is one tradition I hold to that illuminates my understanding of the scripture thanks to the first two ecuminical councils.
 

BRIANH

Member
Thinkingstuff said:
Yes. That Jesus is Homoosious with the Father and the Spirit. That the three are Hypostasis that exist together (not one at a time) but three persons that does not contradict the oneness of God. This is one tradition I hold to that illuminates my understanding of the scripture thanks to the first two ecuminical councils.
Sure. Do you believe those councils to be infallible? Do you believe their understanding and scriptural interpretation are the result of knowledge based on by the Apostles?
Still clarifying. So far you sound...like a normal Baptist to me. But I do not run in these crowds traditionally.
 

Pastor Larry

<b>Moderator</b>
Site Supporter
The question being ducked is the sola in SS. I've asked time and again for where it says 'alone'. Each time the likes of you and Mike have avoided answering or glibly said "it's clear." Er...no it isn't. It isn't clear because it doesn't say it.
It is clear. You simply don't accept it because you have decided to be your own pope. You are demonstrating a weakness with the language here. There is no reasonable basis for your rejection given the language that Scripture uses.

Again, I repeat, if Scripture equips us for "every good work" that means that there is no good work for which Scripture does not equip us. Therefore, Scripture is sufficient.

So, given that the Reformed Baptists attribute a partial soteriology to God, and General Baptists say that He loves and wishes to save everybody (to cite just one difference), are you seriously saying that a disagreement so fundamental as to be about the very nature of God Himself is "relatively minor"?
Yes, compared to differences with other denominations (known as denominational distinctives) that is a relatively minor issue since both agree that salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. There are some issues in which Baptists are closer to others than to each other, but not in baptist distinctives.

Doubtless the Methodist would say the same about you. You're discounting a third possibility - perhaps you're both wrong
Obviously (though I suppose I should never leave out the obvious because someone will miss it). But this again proves my point. The point is not whether I or you or anyone else is wrong. The authority is still the authority, even if we are wrong. And that is the issue you won't address.
 

BRIANH

Member
Pastor Larry said:
Obviously (though I suppose I should never leave out the obvious because someone will miss it). But this again proves my point. The point is not whether I or you or anyone else is wrong. The authority is still the authority, even if we are wrong.

Great point and I can show hundreds of groups who adhere to tradition and scripture who disagree about matters as well. So on a practical level, since there was a reference to differing Protestant denominations, one clearly sees that even those who appeal to tradition; differ. They will say they do not differ AS much and contend that the degree speaks to the truth of the authority. In other words, we know we (those who appeal to a three legged stool of authority if you will) are more correct because we perceive we do not differ as much as you do. An interesting presupposition that any group can actually make if one cares to approach it from that perspective.
And a link about a SLEW of groups that appeal to tradition and scripture

http://www.ind-movement.org/links_denominations.html
 

Agnus_Dei

New Member
BRIANH said:
I am curious what tradition (s) you are appealing to.
First it's important to understand that there's a difference between big "T" Traditions and small "t" traditions. Big "T" Traditions is a tool by which the Church, in my case, the Orthodox Church, has determined correct Christian teaching. Tradition big "T", is determined by 3 elements.
1) Antiquity (what has been believed from the very beginning)
2) Universality (what has been believed by all Christians everywhere)
3) Consensus (what has agreed to be Orthodoxy, especially by the Church Councils, Fathers, and Doctors of the Church)

Small "t" traditions are what we've all grown up in...Baptist traditions, Methodist traditions and some of these traditions find themselves comfortable within the big "T" Traditions. Small "t" traditions can develop and change...as an Orthodox Christian, that can be dress of the clergy, sign of the cross...ect.

BRIANH said:
I am also curious and perhaps this is easier to answer; what authoratative body or set of writings can one go to and find which traditions are considered infallible; ie on the same par as those of us who adhere to an infallible Bible.
Again the Church will use the above 3 elements to determine correct teaching. You will find Tradition in the writings of the Apostolic Church Fathers, Early Church Fathers, Doctors and Desert Fathers, the Creed, Canons of the Church, Liturgy...ect .

Some fathers didn't pass the test and were determined heretical. Example: Arius, he made a completely biblical argument of Jesus being a created being, his argument wasn't flawed by the lack of Scripture, but a faulty interpretation of Scripture and he failed the test above and was thus deemed a heretic in regard to his teaching.

Look at Calvinism...it's not unbiblical, its just an interpretation of Scripture that simply not found as Orthodox in Church history. The Apostles and the Church Fathers as a whole, never interpreted Scripture this way.

Now, big "T" Tradition is also referred to as "Holy Tradition" which is the deposit of faith given by Jesus Christ to the Apostles and passed on in the Church from one generation to the next without addition, alteration or subtraction. As Vladimir Lossky has famously described Tradition as "the life of the Holy Spirit in the Church." It is dynamic in application, yet unchanging in dogma. It is growing in expression, yet ever the same in essence.

Unlike many conceptions of Tradition in popular understanding, the Orthodox Church does not regard Holy Tradition as something which grows and expands over time, forming a collection of practices and doctrines which accrue, gradually becoming something more developed and eventually unrecognizable to the first Christians. Rather, Holy Tradition is that same faith which Christ taught to the Apostles and which they gave to their disciples, preserved in the whole Church and especially in its leadership through Apostolic Succession.

One of the distinctive characteristics of the Holy Orthodox Church is its changelessness, its loyalty to the past, its sense of living continuity with the ancient Church.

To an Orthodox Christian, Tradition means the Holy Bible; it means the Creed; it means the decrees of the Ecumenical Councils and the writings of the Fathers; it means the Canons, the Service Books, the Holy Icons, etc. In essence, it means the whole system of doctrine, ecclesiastical government, worship and art which Orthodoxy has articulated over the ages [Timothy Ware, The Orthodox Church, p.204].

We take special note that for the Orthodox, the Holy Bible forms apart of Holy Tradition, but does not lie outside of it. One would be in error to suppose that Scripture and Tradition are two separate and distinct sources of Christian Faith, as some do, since there is, in reality, only one source; and the Holy Bible exists and found its formulation within Tradition.

And don't think that those of us that are Roman Catholic, Anglican or Orthodox who speak against sola scriptura are speaking against Scripture. That's not the case, we each hold Scripture in the highest regard. As an Orthodox Christian myself, I attend Sunday school, my kids attend Sunday school, we have Bible studies twice a week, catechesis classes and Vespers every evening and we are encouraged to read Scripture and develop a healthy prayer rule.

This by now means is an exhaustive explanation, but maybe enough to begin an understanding.

In XC
-
 

BRIANH

Member
Agnus_Dei said:
First it's important to understand that there's a difference between big "T" Traditions and small "t" traditions. Big "T" Traditions is a tool by which the Church, in my case, the Orthodox Church, has determined correct Christian teaching. Tradition big "T", is determined by 3 elements.
1) Antiquity (what has been believed from the very beginning)
2) Universality (what has been believed by all Christians everywhere)
3) Consensus (what has agreed to be Orthodoxy, especially by the Church Councils, Fathers, and Doctors of the Church)

Small "t" traditions are what we've all grown up in...Baptist traditions, Methodist traditions and some of these traditions find themselves comfortable within the big "T" Traditions. Small "t" traditions can develop and change...as an Orthodox Christian, that can be dress of the clergy, sign of the cross...ect.


Again the Church will use the above 3 elements to determine correct teaching. You will find Tradition in the writings of the Apostolic Church Fathers, Early Church Fathers, Doctors and Desert Fathers, the Creed, Canons of the Church, Liturgy...ect .

Some fathers didn't pass the test and were determined heretical. Example: Arius, he made a completely biblical argument of Jesus being a created being, his argument wasn't flawed by the lack of Scripture, but a faulty interpretation of Scripture and he failed the test above and was thus deemed a heretic in regard to his teaching.

Look at Calvinism...it's not unbiblical, its just an interpretation of Scripture that simply not found as Orthodox in Church history. The Apostles and the Church Fathers as a whole, never interpreted Scripture this way.

Now, big "T" Tradition is also referred to as "Holy Tradition" which is the deposit of faith given by Jesus Christ to the Apostles and passed on in the Church from one generation to the next without addition, alteration or subtraction. As Vladimir Lossky has famously described Tradition as "the life of the Holy Spirit in the Church." It is dynamic in application, yet unchanging in dogma. It is growing in expression, yet ever the same in essence.

Unlike many conceptions of Tradition in popular understanding, the Orthodox Church does not regard Holy Tradition as something which grows and expands over time, forming a collection of practices and doctrines which accrue, gradually becoming something more developed and eventually unrecognizable to the first Christians. Rather, Holy Tradition is that same faith which Christ taught to the Apostles and which they gave to their disciples, preserved in the whole Church and especially in its leadership through Apostolic Succession.

One of the distinctive characteristics of the Holy Orthodox Church is its changelessness, its loyalty to the past, its sense of living continuity with the ancient Church.

To an Orthodox Christian, Tradition means the Holy Bible; it means the Creed; it means the decrees of the Ecumenical Councils and the writings of the Fathers; it means the Canons, the Service Books, the Holy Icons, etc. In essence, it means the whole system of doctrine, ecclesiastical government, worship and art which Orthodoxy has articulated over the ages [Timothy Ware, The Orthodox Church, p.204].

We take special note that for the Orthodox, the Holy Bible forms apart of Holy Tradition, but does not lie outside of it. One would be in error to suppose that Scripture and Tradition are two separate and distinct sources of Christian Faith, as some do, since there is, in reality, only one source; and the Holy Bible exists and found its formulation within Tradition.

And don't think that those of us that are Roman Catholic, Anglican or Orthodox who speak against sola scriptura are speaking against Scripture. That's not the case, we each hold Scripture in the highest regard. As an Orthodox Christian myself, I attend Sunday school, my kids attend Sunday school, we have Bible studies twice a week, catechesis classes and Vespers every evening and we are encouraged to read Scripture and develop a healthy prayer rule.

This by now means is an exhaustive explanation, but maybe enough to begin an understanding.

In XC
-

Thank you for your very complete answer. As you can imagine on a Baptist Board, even the other section if you will, bound to be several who differ. One difficulty, and I have read enought threads to understand your viewpoints on Catholicism to a degree, is that the majority of time I engage in Apologetic discussions with Catholics. While I have certainly discussed Orthodoxy and read some books, specifcially upon Peterine Primacy, it is a rather an uncharted area. I suppose it is also problematic. One interesting and handy feature of engaging in discussions with Catholics is the availability of the Catechism. Perhaps we should address antiquity. Antiquity, specifically if it goes back to the Apostles, would be easy to discuss based upon the available sources. This however would be rife with danger. Lets take Icons and the veneration of them for example. We know based upon the Ante-Nicene fathers that we have no early Christians who directly advocate the use of images. Justyn Martyr etc. One difficulty is that opponents will contend he is only referring to Pagan images in his warnings. I do not disagree with that based upon my belief that images were not used in early worship.
So back to antiquity, we know that there are images on catacombs starting in the 2nd or 3rd century. Of course most lay apologists are used to thinking those were first century items; a point that usually is conceded with a general overview of scholarly, not usually net based, books on the subject.
If even one grants that pictures did exist within 150 years of the Apostles, we do not have evidence of veneration.
What we do have, especially found in Eusebius, are statments that would lead us to the exact opposite conclusion.
I am curious if based upon your research, if you have patristic comments that advocate using images to venerate icons that you believe are traceable to the Apostolic age.
Thanks for your reply; if you care to. It has nothing to do with Sola Scriptura specifically but everything to do with the perils of tradition versus scripture I believe
 
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Marcia

Active Member
Agnus Dei said:
Now, big "T" Tradition is also referred to as "Holy Tradition" which is the deposit of faith given by Jesus Christ to the Apostles and passed on in the Church from one generation to the next without addition, alteration or subtraction. As Vladimir Lossky has famously described Tradition as "the life of the Holy Spirit in the Church

What do you mean by "the deposit of faith" passed on "from one generation to the next?" This is where I have a problem with this view. Whatever God wanted passed on to us He orchestrated to be written in His word. Whatever was oral that we needed to know was put into the canon of scripture. Oral teachings that did not get into the canon are not necessary to know and there is no authority for such claimed oral teachings.

I agree with BrianH's poins: many traditions, such as the veneration of icons, are not biblically supported. Other teachings, such as the assumption of Mary, were not taught until much later -- the assumption of Mary was "revealed" around 1950. There is nothing in the Bible about this. One has to accept extrabliblical authority to accept this -- that of the Pope's declaration that this assumption was true.

Some teachings and traditions are biblical but not on a par with the bible and are not authoritative.
 

Emily25069

New Member
ReformedBaptist said:
There is no way I am reading all 63 replies. lol But Emily, I had a question for you. Why are you revisiting everything you believe? What prompted this questioning? I am not saying its bad, but I am curious what provoked this?

Also, by you saying that you have believed Sola Scriptura to be true for the last 13 years, does this mean you have been a Christian now for 13 years? I would also be curious as to your personal testimony of coming to faith in Christ if you don't mind sharing.

Thanks. :jesus:


WHat provoked this?
About a year ago, I attended a wedding at a Lutheran church. In the lobby, there was a pamphlet on infant salvation. I've never heard a good argument on infant baptism before, so I picked the pamphelet up, only moderately curious as to what it would say. It opened my eyes to the fact that those baby baptizers actually *do* have an argument for what they believe. All along, I had thought they didnt have a leg to stand on.

This past March, I went through a crisis of faith. A friend of mine who had been saved for a few years, suddenly realized that she wasnt saved, and got saved "for real" this time. It shook me up like nothing ever had. How can you believe in God with all your heart and serve him and not be saved? She says that there was sin in her life that she hadnt let go of so she concluded that she had never really trusted Christ. It really made me think about what it actually means to be saved. Do we have to "mean it" enough or something? It just started to sound nonsensical. How could anyone possibly know that they are saved, when suddenly they can realize that they arent? It thoroughly confused me and I started to really doubt my own salvation. Though I met with my Pastor and talked the issue TO DEATH with my husband and prayed and cried and sobbed, I could not find any peace.

About that same time, a good friend who I had parted ways with sought me out and we reconciled the friendship. She had just converted to confessional Lutheranism and I guess she sort of witnessed to me and made me realize a few things, that of course I had known all along, but she got me thinking about them again......

which brings me to my salvation story.

I cannot think of one single second of my life where I didnt believe in God or that Jesus died for my sins. I had been raised Catholic. This was a part of upbringing. I simply trusted Christ.

Then in highschool, I learned that that isnt possible, and that I needed to get "born again". So, even though I already believed that Jesus had died for my sins and had been raised from the dead, I decided to make it official, and so I considered February 4th, 1995 to be my spiritual birthday so to speak. That was the day when church really started to interest me I guess, but I'd always believed that Jesus died for my sins.

My friend coming back into my life got the wheels in my brain turning.

It got me thinking about the way the old testament worked. The seal of the covenent happened at birth, and then the child just naturally grew up knowing God.

I started to wonder if that is the way that it works in Christianity as well.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Emily25069 said:
It got me thinking about the way the old testament worked. The seal of the covenent happened at birth, and then the child just naturally grew up knowing God.

I started to wonder if that is the way that it works in Christianity as well.
Hi Emily,
I was a Catholic for 20 years. I grew up with "Christianity," or so I thought. I was devout, learned all about God, Christ, the trinity, and the basics of Christianity, and some of the things that I now know are not so Christian. When I was 20 a young man at the university I went to me explained the gospel to me. It was the first time I had ever heard that message. In 20 years I never heard the gospel message in the Catholic Church. On that day I got saved.
It took two years for me to completely leave the Catholic Church, but once I did there was no looking back. The Bible has been my authority ever since, and more and more I see how wrong the Catholic Church has been, and how they go on deceiving others.

The RCC believes in a "covenant theology" like the Lutherans, Anglicans, Orthodox and some others, even some Baptists. As I study the Bible I see that God made covenants with Israel, not with Gentiles. We, Christians, the bride of Christ, are heirs of God, joint-heirs with Jesus Christ, and share in the blessings of the covenantal promises made to Israel.
But baptism does not replace circumcision.
And because one is born into the nation of Israel and then circumcised, accordingly does not mean that in this age:
One can be born into a "Christian" family and be baptized as such.
If that were the picture, it wouldn't be very good for you, for only the males were circumcised. Then should only the males be baptized, to make the picture complete? One cannot be born a Christian.

When I was 20 I made a decision and I was born again. I wasn't born a Christian, but had to be born again, that is born into the family of God.
I had to make the choice to choose Christ as my Saviour by faith. He paid the penalty for my sin. It was a penalty that I was unable to pay. He satisfied the demands of God as He died on the cross and shed his blood. God accepted that as payment for my sin. And I trust in Him to save me as He promised on the basis of that sacrificial death. He died once, and once for all. Now He is risen from the dead and lives that we also might live.

But he doesn't live in baptism; in a communion wafer, in any kind of religious rite. He condemns the formal ritualism of the Pharisees.

Here is what John says about Christ:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Christ, the Word, came and lived among us.
He still lives today.
He, today, reveals Himself through His Word.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
 

D28guy

New Member
Thinkingstuff...

"Yes. That Jesus is Homoosious with the Father and the Spirit. That the three are Hypostasis that exist together (not one at a time) but three persons that does not contradict the oneness of God. This is one tradition I hold to that illuminates my understanding of the scripture thanks to the first two ecuminical councils."

Why on earth would you need "tradition" and "ecumenical councils" to teach you that....when that is taught in the scriptures?



Mike
 

D28guy

New Member
Well, here again is...YET...EVEN...MORE...scriptural support for Gods doctrine of "Sola Scriptura"....to be ignored by those who can not see:

"Is the Bible Alone Sufficient for Spiritual Truth?

According to Roman Catholicism, Sacred Tradition and the Bible together provide the foundation of spiritual truth. From this combination the Catholic church has produced many doctrines which it says are true and biblical by which Protestants reject: veneration of Mary, penance, indulgence, purgatory, prayer to saints, et. al. Protestantism, however, rejects these doctrines, and Roman Catholic Sacred Tradition, and holds fast to the call "Sola Scriptura," or, "Scripture Alone."

Catholics then challenge, "Is Sola Scriptura biblical?"
The Bible does not say "Do not use tradition" or "Scripture alone is sufficient." But the Bible does not say "The Trinity is three persons in one God," either, yet it is a fundamental doctrine of Christianity. 2 Tim. 3:16 says that scripture is inspired and profitable for correction and teaching. Scripture states that Scripture is what is good for correction and teaching, not tradition. However, in its comments on tradition, the Bible says to listen to tradition but also warns about tradition nullifying the gospel -- which we will look at below.

In discussing the issue of the Bible alone being sufficient, several points should be made:

1) The method of the New Testament authors (and Jesus as well) when dealing with spiritual truth was to appeal to the Scriptures as the final rule of authority. Take the temptation of Christ in Matthew 4 as an example. The Devil tempted Jesus, yet Jesus used the authority of scripture, not tradition, nor even His own divine power, as the source of authority and refutation. To Jesus, the Scriptures were enough and sufficient. If there is any place in the New Testament where the idea of extra-biblical revelation or tradition could have been used, Jesus' temptation would have been a great place to present it. But Jesus does no such thing. His practice was to appeal to scripture. Should we do any less having seen his inspired and perfect example?

The New Testament writers constantly appealed to the scriptures as their base of authority in declaring what was and was not true biblical teaching: Matt. 21:42; John 2:22; 1 Cor. 15:3-4; 1 Peter 1:10-12; 2:2; 2 Peter 1:17-19, etc. Of course, Paul in Acts 17:11 says, "Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily, to see whether these things were so." Paul commends those who examined God's word for the test of truth. He did not commend them for appealing to tradition. Therefore, we can see that the method used by Jesus and the apostles for determining spiritual truth was to appeal to scripture, not tradition. In fact, it is the scriptures that refute the traditions of men in many instances.

2) It is not required of Scripture to have a statement to the effect, "The Bible alone is to be used for all spiritual truth," in order for sola scriptura to be true. Many doctrines in the Bible are not clearly stated, yet they are believed and taught by the church. For example, there is no statement in the Bible that says there is a Trinity, or that Jesus has two natures (God and man), or that the Holy Spirit is the third person in the Godhead. Yet, each of the statements is considered true doctrine within Christianity, being derived from biblical references. So, for the Catholic to require the Protestant to supply chapter and verse to prove Sola Scriptura is valid, is not necessarily consistent with biblical exegetical principles, that they themselves approve of when examining such doctrines as the Trinity, the hypostatic union, etc.

3) In appealing to the Bible for authentication of Sacred Tradition, the Catholics have shown that the Bible is superior to Sacred Tradition -- for the lesser is blessed by the greater (Heb. 7:7). You see, if the Bible said do not trust Sacred Tradition, then Roman Catholic Sacred Tradition would be instantly and obviously invalidated. If the Bible said to trust Sacred Tradition, then the Bible is authenticating it and the Roman Catholic Church would cite the Scriptures to that effect. In either case, the Scriptures hold the place of final authority and by that position, are shown to be superior to Sacred Tradition. This means that Sacred Tradition is not equal in authority to the Word of God.

If Sacred Tradition were really inerrant as it is said to be, then it would be equal with the Bible. But, Gods word does not say that Sacred Tradition is inerrant or inspired as it does say about itself (2 Tim. 3:16). To merely claim that Sacred Tradition is equal and in agreement with the Bible does not make it so. Furthermore, to assert that Sacred Tradition is equal to Scripture is to effectively leave the canon wide open to doctrinal addition. Since the traditions of men change, then to use tradition as a determiner of spiritual truth would mean that over time new doctrines that are not in the Bible would be added and that is exactly what has happened in Catholicism with doctrines such as purgatory, praying to Mary, indulgences, etc. Furthermore, if they can use Sacred Tradition as a source for doctrines not explicit in the Bible, then why would the Mormons then be wrong for having additional revelation as well?

4) If the Bible is not used to verify and test Sacred Tradition, then Sacred Tradition is functionally independent of the Word of God. If it is independent of Scripture, then by what right does it have to exist as an authoritative spiritual source equivalent to the Bible? How do we know what is and is not true in sacred tradition if there is no inspired guide by which to judge it. If the Roman Catholic says that the inspired guide is the Roman Catholic Church, then it is committing the fallacy of circular reasoning. In other words, is saying at the Roman Catholic Church is inspired because the Roman Catholic Church is inspired.

5) Sacred Tradition is invalidated automatically if it contradicts the Bible, and it does. Of course, the Catholic will say that it does not. But, Catholic teachings such as purgatory, penance, indulgences, praying to Mary, etc., are not in the Bible. A natural reading of God's Word does not lend itself to such beliefs and practices. Instead, the Catholic Church has used Sacred Tradition to add to God's revealed word and then extracted out of the Bible whatever verses that might be construed to support their doctrines of Sacred Tradition.

Nevertheless, the Catholic apologist will state that both the Bible and Sacred tradition are equal in authority and inspiration and to put one above another is a false comparison. But, by what authority does the Catholic say this? Is it because it claims to be the true church, descended from the original apostles? So? Making such claims doesn't mean they are true. Besides, even if it were true, and CARM does not grant that it is, there is no guarantee that the succession of church leaders is immune to error. We saw it creep in with Peter and Paul rebuked him for it in Gal. 2. Are the Catholic church leaders better than Peter?

To continue, is it from tradition that the Catholic Church authenticates its Sacred Tradition? If so, then there is no check upon it. Is it from quotes of some of the church Fathers who say to follow Tradition? If so, then the church fathers are given the place of authority comparable to scripture. Is it from the Bible? If so, then Sacred Tradition holds a lesser position than the Bible because the Bible is used as the authority in validating Tradition. Is it because the Catholic Church claims to be the means by which God communicates His truth? Then, the Catholic Church has placed itself above the Scriptures.

6) One of the mistakes made by the Catholics is to assume that the Bible is derived from Sacred Tradition. This is false. The Church simply recognized the inspired writings of the Bible. They were in and of themselves authoritative. Various "traditions" in the Church served only to recognize what was from God. Also, to say the Bible is derived from Sacred Tradition is to make the Bible lesser than the Tradition as is stated in Heb. 7:7 that the lesser is blessed by the greater, but this cannot be since Catholicism appeals to the Bible to authenticate its tradition.

Conclusion

Since the Bible is the final authority, we should look to it as the final authenticating and inerrant source of all spiritual truth. If it says Sacred Tradition is valid, fine. But if it doesnt, then I will trust the Bible alone. Since the Bible does not approve of the Catholic Church's Sacred Tradition, along with its inventions of prayer to Mary, prayer to the saints, indulgences, penance, purgatory, etc., then neither should Christians.

Objections Answered

The Bible comes from Roman Catholic Sacred Tradition.

The problem is twofold. First, tradition is generally anything the Christian church passed down and doesn't require inspiration of any sort. But Roman Catholicism claims such generic tradition under its umbrella of Sacred Tradition. This is the fallacy of equivocation. In other words, the meaning of the word "tradition" is changed between the first and second reference. There is no proof that the RCC sacred tradition is inspired. But there is evidence that it is flawed, particularly when we compare what it has revealed (purgatory, Maryworship, penance, indulgences, etc.) with Scripture and such doctrines are not only absent from Scripture, but contradict Scripture."


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Mike
 
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D28guy

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"Sacred Tradition is divine revelation and equal to scripture.

At best, this is only a claim that cannot be proven to be false by comparing the revelations supposedly given through sacred tradition with the word of God. As mentioned above, there are many such doctrines of us devised that are not found in the Word of God and even contradict it.

The Bible clearly tells us that God's Scripture is divinely breathed forth and that it is inspired. There is no such claim for tradition. In fact, though the Bible tells us to follow tradition, it also tells us to be wary of it. Therefore, tradition cannot be inspired if God's Word warns us against following it.

The Bible is for tradition where it supports the teachings of the apostles (2 Thess. 2:15) and is consistent with biblical revelation. Yet, it is against tradition when it "transgresses the commands of God" (Matt. 15:3). By Jesus' own words, tradition is not to transgress or contradict the commands of God. In other words, it should be in harmony with biblical teaching and not oppose it in any way. See Roman Catholicism, the Bible, and Tradition.

The Bible clearly tells us that it is the standard of truth. We are not to exceed what the Scriptures say. "Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that in us you might learn not to exceed what is written, in order that no one of you might become arrogant in behalf of one against the other," (1 Cor. 4:6).

Heb. 7:7 is not about scripture, but about people and cannot be used to subject Sacred Tradition to the Bible

It is true that Heb. 7:7 is about people and not about scripture. But there is more in the text than just people. Heb. 7:4-10,

"Now observe how great this man was to whom Abraham, the patriarch, gave a tenth of the choicest spoils. 5 And those indeed of the sons of Levi who receive the priests office have commandment in the Law to collect a tenth from the people, that is, from their brethren, although these are descended from Abraham. 6 But the one whose genealogy is not traced from them collected a tenth from Abraham, and blessed the one who had the promises. 7 But without any dispute the lesser is blessed by the greater. 8 And in this case mortal men receive tithes, but in that case one receives them, of whom it is witnessed that he lives on. 9 And, so to speak, through Abraham even Levi, who received tithes, paid tithes, 10 for he was still in the loins of his father when Melchizedek met him."

The writer of Hebrews is mentioning different concepts as well as historical facts. He mentions tithing, descendents of Abraham, the lesser is blessed by the greater, authority, and Federal Headship1. It is the concept of the greater in authority blessing the lesser in authority that is being examined here in this article. We know that there is a principle of the greater in authority blessing the lesser. Can we not also apply this same principle of authority to the issue of the Roman Catholic Church's claim on sacred tradition as being authoritative as compared to the authority of Scripture? I do not see why not. After all, the Roman Catholic Church appeals to Scripture to support its sacred tradition. In so doing, is submitting itself to the authority of Scripture for validation of its principal."


http://www.carm.org/catholic/biblesufficient.htm


Mike
 

Matt Black

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Amy.G said:
Perhaps you're wrong. Perhaps the Pope is wrong. Perhaps this system is wrong and that system is wrong? What have you gained by including tradition in the interpretation of scripture? What have you gained by giving tradition any authority? You still have fallible men telling you what the Bible says.

If the Bible really is the infallible word of the living God, given to man, there is NO greater authority. God chose to leave the interpretation of His word to His children. Each one of them.

...which leaves us where, theologically? What's the point? What's the use?
 

Matt Black

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BRIANH said:
When one discusses Sola Scriptura with opponents; inevitably it breaks down just like it has. The Bible verses given provide ample support for this view. The opponents appeals to the Protestant divisions and instead point to the vague and undefined "tradition".
Because the people on THIS forum appear to be Orthodox or Anglican, two groups I do not usually engage, one has a small net presence and the other is pummeling itself without me, I am curious what tradition (s) you are appealing to. I am also curious and perhaps this is easier to answer; what authoratative body or set of writings can one go to and find which traditions are considered infallible; ie on the same par as those of us who adhere to an infallible Bible.
Thanks
Hi Brian. An Anglican chiming in here. I would say the corpus of teaching of the Undivided Church prior to 1054, including the Bible, the Seven Ecumenical Councils, the Creeds and other parts of Sacred Tradition prior to that date.
 

Matt Black

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Pastor Larry said:
It is clear. You simply don't accept it because you have decided to be your own pope. You are demonstrating a weakness with the language here. There is no reasonable basis for your rejection given the language that Scripture uses.

Again, I repeat, if Scripture equips us for "every good work" that means that there is no good work for which Scripture does not equip us. Therefore, Scripture is sufficient.
For what, exactly? It says "every good work", not "every doctrine", nor "every practice".

Yes, compared to differences with other denominations (known as denominational distinctives) that is a relatively minor issue
Hardly: they are putting forward two diametrically opposed views of God!
Obviously (though I suppose I should never leave out the obvious because someone will miss it). But this again proves my point. The point is not whether I or you or anyone else is wrong. The authority is still the authority, even if we are wrong. And that is the issue you won't address.
Same question to you as Amy by way of addressing the issue: what's the point? If no-one can agree on the interpretation, the authority (and I accept that Scripture does indeed have authority) is useless. That surely can't be what the Lord had in mind when He promised that the Holy Spirit would teach us all things (John 14:26), can it? There must be some other way. And there is...
 

Matt Black

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Mike, I only have time to address one of CARM's points, but the one which leaps out at me is this:

2) It is not required of Scripture to have a statement to the effect, "The Bible alone is to be used for all spiritual truth," in order for sola scriptura to be true. Many doctrines in the Bible are not clearly stated, yet they are believed and taught by the church. For example, there is no statement in the Bible that says there is a Trinity, or that Jesus has two natures (God and man), or that the Holy Spirit is the third person in the Godhead. Yet, each of the statements is considered true doctrine within Christianity, being derived from biblical references. So, for the Catholic to require the Protestant to supply chapter and verse to prove Sola Scriptura is valid, is not necessarily consistent with biblical exegetical principles, that they themselves approve of when examining such doctrines as the Trinity, the hypostatic union, etc.
Surely this point demonstrates the unadequacy of SS rather than the other way round as CARM would like? They are admitting that many doctrines are not clearly stated in the Bible yet they are taught by The Church ie: they are impliedly accepting the principle of Tradition.
 

Matt Black

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Brian and Pastor Larry, by way I hope of further addressing your questions, here's something I wrote earlier (to my Exclusive Brethren in-laws):

By way of introduction, I think it is worth pointing out that there are, broadly speaking, two approaches to the question as to how to, as it were, ‘do’ Church; by ‘do’ I mean how to determine sound doctrine, which practices to include and which to exclude etc.

The first theory is commonly known by its Latin title, sola Scriptura (meaning ‘Scripture alone’) and states that Scripture and only Scripture should be used in matters of faith, doctrine and practice, and in particular the New Testament. This view is adhered to by many, but not all, evangelicals, including I believe your goodselves. The drawback with this position is that it has produced a mass of contradictory interpretations (and thus splits and splinters within the Body of Christ) over what Scripture means on topics as diverse as the Last Days, church government and structure, the extent to which man has free will as opposed to being predestined by God to salvation or damnation, views on baptism and the Breaking of Bread, amongst many others. The NT is many things – divinely inspired, infallible, containing rich theology etc, but it is not a comprehensive, “all-singing, all-dancing” guide to how to be a Christian, nor does it claim to be thus sufficient. It does not, for example, prescribe what time Christians should meet on the Lord’s Day, how many times they should meet or what exactly should occur at such a meeting, nor does it say who should preside at the Lord’s Table or perform baptisms, still less what precise words should be used at either event. In matters of church structure, the Presbyterian, the Episcopalian and the Congregationalist can all in theory argue, with some justification, that their own particular forms of church governance may be found in the pages of the NT, yet they cannot all three of them (or even two of them) be correct. Each ‘side’ in these debates tends to claim (of course!) that they have the full measure of the Holy Spirit and that therefore their interpretation is correct and the others have simply Got It Wrong, but they plainly can’t all be right and this approach does beg the very obvious question: who decides what interpretation is correct (and on what basis)?

The second school of thought recognises the above problem and admits that Scripture on its own is insufficient to deal with it; this approach therefore looks to another source for matters of doctrine and practice, not in contradiction to Scripture, but in addition to and complementary to Scripture. This other source is known as Tradition (this term comes from the Latin translation, traditio, of the Greek used in 2 Thess 2:15, paradoseiV (paradoseis), meaning ‘hand over’ or ‘hand down’). It is this method of Scripture+Tradition which I wish to explain further. In so doing, I have no desire and do not seek to justify or commend the Roman Catholic view of Tradition (and it should be pointed out that the Roman Catholics are only one out of several denominations who adopt this method of interpretation).

By way of background, I think what has to be remembered (and here I am indebted to Richard Hooker for his analysis written in the 16th century on this front) is that Scripture - and in particular the NT - is not a 'how to do church' manual, whether it be church government or liturgy etc; there are some hints, of course, but it is not comprehensive on these subjects, as we have seen above.Therefore it was left to the Church - both in the Apostolic and post-Apostolic periods - to, of necessity, work out these matters itself and it was possible for the Church to do this whilst still maintaining fidelity to Scripture. We are fortunate in that we do have a written recordto a large extent of how that happened; this record is contained within the writings variously known as ‘The Apostolic Fathers’, ‘the Patristic Writings’ or, more commonly, ‘The Early Church Fathers (ECFs)’ – men like Ignatius of Antioch, Polycarp of Smyrna, Clement of Rome, Clement of Alexandria, Justin Martyr of Rome, Irenaeus of Lyon, Hippolytus, Cyprian of Carthage etc. Their writings are not on the same level as Scripture – they are not infallible and in some instances disagree with each other – but where there is unanimity and agreement between them (known as the consensus patri) – and there is that a-plenty – then their thoughts carry an overwhelming amount of weight.

So, for some of us, then, the NT is not the sole arbiter of matters of faith and practice. Indeed, that was the case with the Church in the first few centuries of its existence; in fact in many ways they were worse off than us in that respect. For the first seventy years or so, the entirety of the NT had not yet been written, and the Church did not decide upon or recognise all of the 27 books we have today until the end of the 4th century. Up until then, therefore, Christians had to have some other method of determining the truth of the New Covenant. The key to that other method is the record of what the Church has done and said – its practice in other words; the other reason some of us do what we do, in addition to the NT, is because our ‘spiritual ancestors’, as it were, did it, and so did their spiritual ancestors, right back to the earliest existence of the Church, ‘handed down’ (traditio) from generation to generation and, more often than not, recorded by the ECFs.

This Tradition, as it has historically been called, in addition to ‘filling in the gaps’ where Scripture is silent, also helps to explain and interpret Scripture for us, to assist us in arriving at the correct understanding of what the Scripture means. For we see the pernicious effects of using Scripture as the sole rule of faith and doctrine all around us in the divisions which plague the Body of Christ referred to above. These problems are nothing new to Christendom and gave rise to the famous test of sound doctrine coined by Vincent of Lerins in the 5th century: "Quod ubique, quod semper, quod ab omnibus" - "that [which has in relation to Christian doctrine been believed] everywhere, always, by everyone." In fact, I think that Vincent came out with a number of excellent points which are worth quoting in expanded format here from his Commonitory (here, ‘catholic’ simply means ‘universal’):-

I have often then inquired earnestly and attentively of very many men eminent for sanctity and learning, how and by what sure and so to speak universal rule I may be able to distinguish the truth of catholic faith from the falsehood of heretical pravity; and I have always, and in almost every instance, received an answer to this effect: That whether I or any one else should wish to detect the frauds and avoid the snares of heretics as they rise, and to continue sound and complete in the catholic faith, we must, the Lord helping, fortify our own belief in two ways; first, by the authority of the Divine Law, and then, by the Tradition of the catholic church.

"But here some one perhaps will ask, Since the canon of Scripture is complete, and sufficient of itself for everything, and more than sufficient, what need is there to join with it the authority of the Church's interpretation? For this reason,—because, owing to the depth of Holy Scripture, all do not accept it in one and the same sense, but one understands its words in one way, another in another; so that it seems to be capable of as many interpretations as there are interpreters. For Novatian expounds it one way, Sabellius another, Donatus another, Arius, Eunomius, Macedonius, another, Photinus, Apollinaris, Priscillian, another, Iovinian, Pelagius, Celestius, another, lastly, Nestorius another. Therefore, it is very necessary, on account of so great intricacies of such various error, that the rule for the right understanding of the prophets and apostles should be framed in accordance with the standard of ecclesiastical and catholic interpretation."


 
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