How can the elect be saved?

[Ray Berrian]

Dr. Robert Shank in his book, Elect In The Son, explains the various errors that have been spawned in the Christian Church. He suggests this idea and I concur with him. ‘As we have already observed, while the atonement is for man, it is essentially God-ward rather than man-ward. Its authenticity and value in no way depend on the response of any man, but depend instead on its satisfaction of God and the demands of His righteousness.'

I think he is saying nothing is lost by Him dying for all human beings, and the majority not believing during their life-span. The obvious loss is an eternal one for those who neglect Him. No human being will ever be able to complain at the Great White Throne Judgement that the atonement was not available to everyone.

This is not original with me. In effect Dr. Shank says, Christ commands Christians to preach the Gospel to every creature. The Gospel is address to all and the plan is not a failure because the majority reject Him. So too, with the atonement. The atonement is sufficient for all, but only effective in those who believe. Nothing is at loss because the Gospel did not penetrate every life; nothing is lost because the majority will not touch, by faith, the transforming power of the Holy Spirit and His atonement.

"Ray"

 

[Eladar]

Nelson,

What you say about Joe and Moe is exactly what Paul says about Jacob and Esau.

Romans 9

Who are we to judge God?

[ February 14, 2002: Message edited by: Tuor ]

 

[Nelson]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tuor: Nelson, What you say about Joe and Moe is exactly what Paul says about Jacob and Esau. Who are we to judge God?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"Moe and Joe" was merely a response to Larry's assertion that "The dumb have the same chance as the smart; the rich the same as the poor."

God was not being judged. If you feel I was judging God, please cite the specific comment that made you think so.

[ February 14, 2002: Message edited by: Nelson ]

 

[Eladar]

Nelson,

I guess you didn't. I'm sorry for jumping to conclusions.

You said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Peter states that God's judgement is without favoritism to anyone but based upon the persons attitude and actions towards Him, which is quite contrary to Larry's position. God is impartial in that each person's work is judged by one standard without being swayed or induced from judgement away from that standard as a result of what that person does.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I don't believe anyone would argue against the point that Jesus will judge us on our actions.

A question still remains, does man have the free will to accept God or are man's actions here on earth preordained? This is an impossible question for us to answer.

But to tell you the truth, I don't believe this should be a point of contention. Who are we to decide how God must work? Where in the Bible does it say that we must figure out exactly how God works?

 

[Nelson]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>by Tuor:…A question still remains, does man have the free will to accept God or are man's actions here on earth preordained? This is an impossible question for us to answer.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I am of the opinion that it is only impossible if one circumvents the obvious intent of the scriptures and denies those human experiences, which are taken for granted.

For a general Biblical example, in the OT God commands is to choose whom we are to serve or to make a decision between the blessing and the curse. If we had no free will, then either God’s command is nonsensical or deceptive. In the NT, Jesus commands us to repent and believe. If we could not repent and believe, again, then Jesus is either nonsensical or deceptive.

In experience we are daily confronted by choices that need to be made, both choices we enjoy making and choices we’d rather not make. Many times our choices are between opposites. For example, should I buy a pet or not buy a pet? Should I say “Hi” to her or not? Should I vote for the democrat or the republican or just stay home and watch TV? Should I agree or not agree to go with him to the movies? And what movies should I go to?

There are those who oppose human experiences as a viable determination of what is true, however, while “human experience may sometimes be mistaken or distorted, they are generally reliable…So many ingredients of human life and knowledge come to us through the avenues of experience that to deny its general validity is to raise the radical question of whether we are capable of knowing anything at all” (Evil and the Christian God, pg. 90f, by Michael Peterson).

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>But to tell you the truth, I don't believe this should be a point of contention. Who are we to decide how God must work? Where in the Bible does it say that we must figure out exactly how God works?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> It should be pointed out that we need to find, not how God must work, but how God does work. Unless we know how God works, how can we know Him or enter into His salvation? Maybe we need not fine tune all the details of how God does things but we need to find out what is it He does as it is shown in the Bible.

[ February 19, 2002: Message edited by: Nelson ]

 

[tyndale1946]

All I can say is everyone going to make election creature conditional instead of creator conditional... Is heaven going to be a small place! I'm thankful its not dependent on mortal man to fill its domain. The Bible tells me the elect are number that no man can number... Satan and his angels won't be there... Neither will the non-elect!
Who they are is of no concern of mine as God knows who they are... Brother Glen

[ February 19, 2002: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]

 

[Nelson]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>"Who they are is of no concern of mine as God knows who they are..."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Such is precisely the unfortunate result in the Calvinistic/Reformed view of salvation, that it matters not to us who is saved and who is lost. Since God has it "all figured out," our participation is irrelevant and will not change the situation one iota. The saved are absolutely saved; the lost are irretrievably lost; the numbers are fixed for the saved and for the lost; one is "the chosen" the other is "the lost" and no one can change anything because God has fixed it into their fate.

What is there to be concerned about?

Personal obsevation: It is sad.

 

[Eladar]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Unless we know how God works, how can we know Him or enter into His salvation?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Faith

All we need do is trust and obey God's commands.

There is no way of getting around the fact that the elect are already known by God. The elect are even called the chosen.

It would be impossible for us to allow something free will but already have its fate known, or even chosen, but for God all things are possible.

How can we figure out how God works, if we have no idea what His limitations are?

 

[Nelson]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tuor: There is no way of getting around the fact that the elect are already known by God. The elect are even called the chosen.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I must admit, I have not yet committed myself to what I believe exactly about divine foreknowledge.

Be that as it may, I am of the persuasion that foreknowledge is not a determining factor for one's salvation.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>It would be impossible for us to allow something free will but already have its fate known, or even chosen, but for God all things are possible.

How can we figure out how God works, if we have no idea what His limitations are?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I am of the opinion that we do have some idea of what limitations there are to God's power without nullifying the concept that God is omnipotent.

For example, God cannot create self-contradictions like a square circle, a rock He cannot lift, or cause Himself to forget or not exist.

 

[Eladar]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>For example, God cannot create self-contradictions like a square circle, a rock He cannot lift, or cause Himself to forget or not exist.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>As far as how things work in this universe. Who knows how things work outside this universe?

If you deny that God has foreknowldge of who is saved and who is not, then you deny what is clearly stated in the Bible.

 

[Pastor Larry]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tuor:
As far as how things work in this universe. Who knows how things work outside this universe?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

God is the only thing outside this universe. He still cannot contradict himself.

 

[Nelson]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tuor: If you deny that God has foreknowldge of who is saved and who is not, then you deny what is clearly stated in the Bible.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I did not deny foreknowlege but only that "I have not yet committed myself to what I believe exactly about divine foreknowledge."

That God has foreknowledge seems to be attested to in the Bible.

Where I find the difficulty is how divine foreknowledge operates when free will is taken into consideration.

 

[Nelson]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pastor Larry: God is the only thing outside this universe. He still cannot contradict himself.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Okay, folk, don't let Larry fool you. He's only agreeing with what I stated before in order to make me feel loved after all the bashings he has given me.

(Don't let this get into a habit, Larry, I'm embarrassed)

 

[Eladar]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pastor Larry:


God is the only thing outside this universe. He still cannot contradict himself.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>God can't contradict Himself, true, but this doesn't mean he can't do something that may appear contradictory to us(eg free will and predestination at the same time)

 

[Nelson]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tuor:
God can't contradict Himself, true, but this doesn't mean he can't do something that may appear contradictory to us(eg free will and predestination at the same time)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If by free will and predestination, it is meant as defined by the Calvinist/Reformed tradition, then it is a self-contradiction (i.e. meant as free will and predestination is the self-contradiction; not God creating within his being a contradiction) that God cannot create.

 

[Eladar]

How God can preordain yet give free will is a mystery. I believe it has to do with God being outside of time. For God the future past and present are all in the present.

Yesterday we had free will, yet today we know what we did yesterday. Does the fact that we know what we did yesterday negate the fact that at the time we had free will?

For God, everyday appears as a yesterday.

 

[Nelson]

Originally posted by Tuor: How God can preordain yet give free will is a mystery.

As I view it, according to how the Reformed tradition presents preordination and free will, it is not a mystery; it is a logical impossibility; a self-contradiction; an irrational interpretation of Biblical revelation.

 

[Eladar]

OK,

But I am not a Pre-destination person anymore than I am a free-will person. I do not claim to be a Calvinists. As far as I can see, there is a little of both. I don't see where our salvation is dependant upon having a correct understanding of the issue. Our salvation is dependant upon loving God and loving our neighbors as ourselves.

Without love, everything is just clanging.

 

[Nelson]

Originally posted by Tuor:But I am not a Pre-destination person...

With all due respect, the above response is irrelevant to the point being discussed.

 

[Eladar]

I was just pointing out the fact that I am not defending the reformed position.

But back to the original question...

If the elect are pre-ordained, then their souls are in no danger of being disqualified. If the elect must go to heaven, even before they were born, then how can anyone ever say the elect have been saved? (As in 'salvation experience')