How did you first come to your pre-trib rapture view?

[atpollard]

Funny how a topic opens with “When did you fist believe …” and quickly devolves into well worn arguments about whose belief is correct (and why “YOUR” belief is wrong).

 

[Van]

I think the idea was people come to believe before they have studied implying the view is wrong.

Here it is again:
"Before He establishes His kingdom on earth, Jesus will come for His Church, an event commonly referred to as the "Rapture." At that time the dead in Christ will be raised and living Christians will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air and be with Him forever.2 In this resurrection, those who have died in Christ will have their redeemed souls and spirits united with a body similar to Christ's glorified body. Christians living at the time of this event will not die, but will be changed to be like Christ.3 This expectation is a motivation for holy living, as well as a source of comfort.4 No man knows the day or the hour when this will take place.5

After the Rapture of the Church, Christians will be brought before the judgment seat of Christ. He will reward them on the basis of the works they have accomplished.6 This is not a judgment to determine their salvation but a reward for labor on Christ's behalf.7 The Rapture will also inaugurate a period that the Bible characterizes as the "great day of His wrath," "the great tribulation" and the "time of Jacob's trouble."8 This time of unprecedented difficulty will affect Israel and all nations. Its purpose will be to prepare Israel for her Messiah.9

At the end of the Tribulation, Jesus Christ will return with the hosts of heaven as well as the Church to establish the Messianic Kingdom on earth.10 His Kingdom will last for a thousand years.11 At this Second Coming, the Antichrist will be cast into the Lake of Fire and Satan will be bound for a thousand years. 12 The nations and their representatives will be judged.13 Israel will be restored to her land, never more to be removed.14 Christ will reign with firmness and equity.15 His kingdom will be marked by material and spiritual blessing, since the curse upon the earth will be removed." (From Moody Bible Institute)

Footnotes:
2: 1 Corinthians 15:51–54; 1 Thessalonians 4:14
3: 1 John 3:2
4: 1 John 2:28; 1 Thessalonians 4:18
5: Matthew 24:36; John 6:39
6: Romans 14:10–12; 2 Corinthians 5:10
7: 1 Corinthians 3:9–15
8: Revelation 6:17; 7:14; Jeremiah 30:7
9: Zechariah 12:2, 3; 14:1–3
10: Revelation 19:7–9, 14; 1 Thessalonians 3:13; Zechariah 14:9; Revelation 19:15, 16
11: Revelation 20:2, 4–6
12: Revelation 19:20; 20:1–3
13: Joel 3; Matthew 25
14: Amos 9:15; Ezekiel 34:28
15: Psalms 2:9; Isaiah 11:4
16: Romans 8:19-21

 

[robycop3]

Yes, but . . .
Matthew 27:51-53, ". . . the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. . . ."

That's pretty well what I said. They rose in their bodies, & later died again, same as Lazarus, etc.

 

[Van]

Ever wonder why the Rapture is called the Rapture, when a better description might be the "Translation?"

 

[robycop3]

Ever wonder why the Rapture is called the Rapture, when a better description might be the "Translation?"

Because it'll be a time of extreme happiness for all who are translated.

 

[Van]

Because it'll be a time of extreme happiness for all who are translated.

So why the middle man verbiage. The root meanings of rapture are "rape result." The word does not seem to have appeared in English until the 14th Century. And what is the basis of believing our being caught up results in "transport with ecstasy." If we go back to the Greek word harpazo (G726), the idea of joy, or ecstasy is no where to be found.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Your view of the "BEMA" has zero Scriptural support. Romans 14:10. 2 Corinthians 5:10-11. But then Jesus before Pilate's Judgment seat, Matthew 27:19.

Bema is a greek word. It is a type of roman judgment

There is a reason that two judgments have two different greek words used.

The judgment of revelations. Death and hades are DELIVERED.

Believers will not be delivered. They will be ressurected.

The believers are not dead, they are alive

Those at the great white throne will be cast to outer darkness./

Those at the bema will recieve gold silver precious stone wood hey and straw.

 

[37818]

Bema is a greek word. It is a type of roman judgment

There is a reason that two judgments have two different greek words used.

The judgment of revelations. Death and hades are DELIVERED.

Believers will not be delivered. They will be ressurected.

The believers are not dead, they are alive

Those at the great white throne will be cast to outer darkness./

Those at the bema will recieve gold silver precious stone wood hey and straw.

Extra Biblical. Jesus sent to the cross was before a BEMA.

 

[robycop3]

So why the middle man verbiage. The root meanings of rapture are "rape result." The word does not seem to have appeared in English until the 14th Century. And what is the basis of believing our being caught up results in "transport with ecstasy." If we go back to the Greek word harpazo (G726), the idea of joy, or ecstasy is no where to be found.

I believe every Christian who's translated will know it & be extremely joyful, knowing what awaits !

 

[kyredneck]

There exists disagreements in understanding and interpretation regarding the bema seat. 2 Corinthians 5:10-11, Matthew 25:31-46, Revelation 20:11-15.

The judgement is according works, deeds done in the body, and the consequences are eternal:

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour cometh, in which all that are in the tombs shall hear his voice,
29 and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment. Jn 5

5 but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 who will render to every man according to his works:
7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life:
8 but unto them that are factious, and obey not the truth, but obey unrighteousness, shall be wrath and indignation,
9 tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek Ro 2

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 for I was hungry, and ye gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink; I was a stranger, and ye took me in;
36 naked, and ye clothed me; I was sick, and ye visited me; I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 for I was hungry, and ye did not give me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink;
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in; naked, and ye clothed me not; sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Mt 25

Good read, by @asterisktom: Returning to the Biblical Bema | Baptist Christian Forums (baptistboard.com)

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Extra Biblical. Jesus sent to the cross was before a BEMA.

this is for unbelievers

rev 20: 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

1. this is a "krino" judgment.
2. Those at this judgment are delivered to Christ
3. Those at this judgment are judged according to their works, and found wanting
4. Those at this judgment suffer the second death.

this is believers..

John 6:
35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will f]">[f]by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

they (we) are not delivered to Christ for judgment, we are raised by him. We are given a separate judgment. where our works are tried by fire. even if all our works are burned up. We are told we will still be saved even as though through fire.

The reason many call this the bema judgment is it is the judgment "raised platform" seat where rewards are given as at the olympics.

we are told we will be given robes of righteousness. and crowns and many other things.

call this the bema or whatever you want to call it. It is not the great white throne

 

[37818]

this is for unbelievers

rev 20: 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

1. this is a "krino" judgment.
2. Those at this judgment are delivered to Christ
3. Those at this judgment are judged according to their works, and found wanting
4. Those at this judgment suffer the second death.

this is believers..

John 6:
35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will f]">[f]by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

they (we) are not delivered to Christ for judgment, we are raised by him. We are given a separate judgment. where our works are tried by fire. even if all our works are burned up. We are told we will still be saved even as though through fire.

The reason many call this the bema judgment is it is the judgment "raised platform" seat where rewards are given as at the olympics.

we are told we will be given robes of righteousness. and crowns and many other things.

call this the bema or whatever you want to call it. It is not the great white throne

Revelation 20:15, Revelation 21:7-8, Revelation 21:27.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Revelation 20:15, Revelation 21:7-8, Revelation 21:27.

Not sure how this proves that there is not a seperate judgment for believers and non believers

There were people in the throne room who had crowns and laid them at the feet of the lamb, and they were clothed in robes righteousness, And they praised the Lamb who died for their sins..

How can this be if they had not yet been judged. and how can this be if they are still in the grave (not resurrected)

 

[37818]

Not sure how this proves that there is not a seperate judgment for believers and non believers

There were people in the throne room who had crowns and laid them at the feet of the lamb, and they were clothed in robes righteousness, And they praised the Lamb who died for their sins..

How can this be if they had not yet been judged. and how can this be if they are still in the grave (not resurrected)

You do not believe what you believe for no reason.
Show those two judgments side by side. First reference. Second reference [if Revelation 20:11-15.]

 

[robycop3]

BACK TO THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE VIEW:

I'm skipping over the pret hooey & whether it's rapture or translation & getteng right to the heart of the matter. It's summed up in Reve. 3:10. In it, Jesus said, " Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth." Now, while He addressed this to the church in Philadelphia, I believe it applies to all similar churches.

We see in Scripture there'll be "trib saints", those who come to Jesus after the rapure, with many being martyred during it, or killed by the plagues & disasters in it. But shortly after the rapture, the command will be enforced for everyone to remain in whatever spiritual state he/she's in.

MY suggestion to all who read this & are not Christians is to COME TO JESUS NOW, for no one knows how long he/she will live, & whatever spiritual state you're at death is fixed FOREVER !

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You do not believe what you believe for no reason.
Show those two judgments side by side. First reference. Second reference [if Revelation 20:11-15.]

I have explained my reasons

How could I show them side by side in rev 20 when there are no believers in rev 20..

Will you be raised by Christ or delivered to him?

Those in rev 20 were delivered to him. There is no second judgment in rev 20

 

[Van]

I believe every Christian who's translated will know it & be extremely joyful, knowing what awaits !

The issue is reading the meaning on an English word back into the meaning of the translated Greek word. Proper translation goes the other way, so the Greek word means to be suddenly taken, caught up so to speak. That is all it means. Rapture alters the meaning to include something not inspired.

 

[37818]

. . . when there are no believers in rev 20..

Will you be raised by Christ or delivered to him?

Those in rev 20 were delivered to him. There is no second judgment in rev 20

Revelation 20:4-6, ". . . And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. . . ."

There is only one first resurrection. [John 6:39]

 

[robycop3]

The issue is reading the meaning on an English word back into the meaning of the translated Greek word. Proper translation goes the other way, so the Greek word means to be suddenly taken, caught up so to speak. That is all it means. Rapture alters the meaning to include something not inspired.

Rapture is what most Christians call it, and that includes me.

 

[Van]

The Bible describes the Rapture and Second Coming as different events. The Bible must see the Rapture (Jn. 14:1-4; I Cor. 15:51-58; 1 Thes. 4:13-18) and the Second Coming (Zech. 14:1-21; Matt. 24:29-31; Mk. 13:24-27; Lk. 21:25-27; Rev. 19) as separate events, because when the verses are compared they describe two very different scenarios:

1. Rapture — believers meet Christ in the air - Second Coming — Christ returns to the Mt of Olives to meet believers on earth
2. Rapture — Mount of Olives is unchanged - Second Coming — Mount of Olives is divided, forming a valley east of Jerusalem
3. Rapture — living believers obtain glorified bodies - Second Coming — living believers remain in same bodies
4. Rapture — believers go to heaven - Second Coming — glorified believers come from heaven, earthly believers stay on earth
5. Rapture — world left unjudged and living in sin - Second Coming — world is judged and righteousness is established
6. Rapture — deliverance of the Church from wrath - Second Coming — deliverance of believers who endured wrath
7. Rapture — no signs precede it - Second Coming — many signs precede it
8. Rapture — revealed only in New Testament - Second Coming — revealed in both Old and New Testaments
9. Rapture — deals with only the saved - Second Coming — deals with both the saved and unsaved
10. Rapture — Satan remains free - Second Coming — Satan is bound and thrown into the Abyss

Since the Rapture and Second Coming clearly are different events that do not occur at the same time, this would seem to rule out a Post-Tribulation Rapture scenario.

[above from online PFD]