How do Arminians KNOW They are the Elect of God?

[Winman]

But "perserverance" does not speak to the issue of the CAUSE or SOURCE of faith only its course! Your argument was and is based upon faith having it SOURCE in all men. My view is that faith originates with God not man and only the elect obtain it by grace not due to their fallen nature which is antithetical to faith (Rom. 8:7-8) which cannot "please God" (Rom. 8:8) whereas faith is essential to please God (Heb. 11:6).

Why are you changing the subject? When were we speaking of the source of faith? You said only the elect have faith, I showed you that Calvin and other Calvinists (Monergism dot com) believe many men profess faith but fall away.

I showed you where Jesus himself said men "which for a while believe". I noticed you have conveniently overlooked this verse and failed to answer my question. Did Jesus die for these persons which believed for a while?

Don't tell me what I believe or don't believe! Don't build some straw man and apply it to all who disagree with your idea of the source of faith! There are all kinds of faith that originate with the lost nature (dead, vain, miracle, etc.) but justifying faith is not a temporary faith nor is it a product of fallen human nature but is the product of a new heart.

Don't confuse vain, dead or miracle faith with justifying faith as they are not the same. Don't attribute vain or dead faith to God as they are completely human in source. Don't attribute justifying faith to fallen man as it is a product of grace not of men (Jn. 6:44; 65).

I am not telling you what you believe, but you are using that for your big "cop out". Many Calvinists use this argument when they are boxed into a corner, but Calvinism is called Calvinism for a reason because it is founded upon the writings of Calvin and what he believed.

I am telling you what many Calvinists "generally" believe. You believe only God can give a man faith, did God give those persons in Luke 8:13 which believed "for a while" faith? Did God take that faith away? Did Jesus die for these persons which believed for a while?

And why do you give a definition to faith that scripture does not mention? Jesus said only that these persons "believed" for a while. Are you suggesting that Jesus did not know what he was talking about?

And John 6:44-45 does not say one word about God giving men faith. Yes, they do say no man can come to Jesus unless he is drawn by the Father, but then Jesus explains how a man is drawn, by being taught by the Father. Every man that has heard and learned from the Father comes to Jesus. This does not say one word about man needing to be regenerated to have faith as you falsely ascribe to these verses. You are reading into scripture what is not there, and adding to God's word.

 

[BobRyan]

Even giving Calvinists there best argument - that Arminians must reject OSAS if they are to be consistent - we have this.

Arminians easily know that God most certainly loves THEM along with all mankind, that He died for THEM as well as all mankind, that they have accepted Christ and are born-again, saved saints. But since the consistent Arminian cannot know that he will persevere firm to the end 20 years from today - he cannot know that he will remain saved.

But the 4 and 5 point Calvinist "cannot even know that".

For in their case they may "think they are saved" but will readily admit that if 20 years from now they "fail to persevere" firm to the end - will then they were never really saved to start with - and all that they claim to know today - will then be affirmed even by them - to be false about themselves. They will then claim that their most cherished belief about their being saved today - was in fact false and they did not know it - until 20 years in that future when it is apparent they do not choose to persevere.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Rippon]

Arminians easily know that God most certainly loves THEM along with all mankind, that He died for THEM as well as all mankind,

Just about all Americans who have a surface level knowledge of Christianity think that God loves them and Christ died for them. And that lulls them all the way to Perdition. It is false.

Some Arminian doing "personal work" comes up to a guy and the guy says :"Hey,you just told me that God loves me and that Jesus died for me. I've been told that all my life. So I'm covered. Go away."

 

[The Biblicist]

Why are you changing the subject?

This is a complete waste of time and energy trying to discuss anything with a person like you. I have better things to do with my time then waste it in this manner. I will leave you and those like you on this forum to God. I am though wasting my time.

 

[Skandelon]

This is a complete waste of time and energy trying to discuss anything with a person like you. I have better things to do with my time then waste it in this manner. I will leave you and those like you on this forum to God. I am though wasting my time.

Ironic that the one who claims to believe in the sovereignty of God over the wills of man takes this approach. I guess God predetermined him to grow frustrated by Winman's predetermined will? :laugh:

 

[JohnDeereFan]

As Arms accuse cals of being arrogant by assuming that we kinow that God has made us one of His elect in Christ...

On what basis do Arminians know they are the elect of God than?

They believe they're the elect because they tell God they are when they choose to repent and believe and "accept Jesus as their personal Savior".

 

[preacher4truth]

This is a complete waste of time and energy trying to discuss anything with a person like you. I have better things to do with my time then waste it in this manner. I will leave you and those like you on this forum to God. I am though wasting my time.

Wise move and biblical to boot. Glad you're getting off his merry go round. :thumbsup:

 

[webdog]

This is a complete waste of time and energy trying to discuss anything with a person like you. I have better things to do with my time then waste it in this manner. I will leave you and those like you on this forum to God. I am though wasting my time.

Its a complete waste of time discussing any of this if you are a determinist, in fact if we are not predestined and determined to believe your tripe, you are working against God's will. Repent!

 

[webdog]

They believe they're the elect because they tell God they are when they choose to repent and believe and "accept Jesus as their personal Savior".

"It is better to keep ones mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt".

 

[Luke2427]

Its a complete waste of time discussing any of this if you are a determinist, in fact if we are not predestined and determined to believe your tripe, you are working against God's will. Repent!

Over simplistic.

God uses means to break people's wills and lead them to the light of truth.

Biblicist and I may be the means whereby webdog is finally broken and says, "Ok, that's it. I have been wrong. My arguments are weak. My posts are usually nothing more but antagonistic trolling drive-by posts. I have been emotionally invested against Calvinism but now I see it. Thank God for his exhaustive Sovereignty!"

 

[preacher4truth]

"It is better to keep ones mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt".

And you've just practiced the latter and proved Lincoln's point. Congrats!!!!!

 

[webdog]

Over simplistic.

God uses means to break people's wills and lead them to the light of truth.

Biblicist and I may be the means whereby webdog is finally broken and says, "Ok, that's it. I have been wrong. My arguments are weak. My posts are usually nothing more but antagonistic trolling drive-by posts. I have been emotionally invested against Calvinism but now I see it. Thank God for his exhaustive Sovereignty!"

Your normative vs. determined means have been refuted by Skan more times than I can count. The fact you still stubornly hold to such a silly ideal makes everything in quotes above quite hysterical and worthy material for a christian comedian.

 

[webdog]

And you've just practiced the latter and proved Lincoln's point. Congrats!!!!!

So providing a quote means I'm guilty of the quote. :laugh:

Good stuff! :thumbs:

 

[preacher4truth]

And then there is being proud of the accomplishment and fulfillment of Lincoln's quote.

Go figure.

You should really go spend some time in self-examination, worshiping God in His Word and in prayer. I mean that and hope you'll do it and find some success in it. We all need it, and you do especially. :thumbs:

 

[webdog]

And then there is being proud of the accomplishment and fulfillment of Lincoln's quote.

Go figure.

You should really go spend some time in self-examination, worshiping God in His Word and in prayer. I mean that and hope you'll do it and find some success in it. We all need it, and you do especially. :thumbs:

LOL a "pastor" that loves conflict, confrontation, arguments, division, strife, bullying and general unchristlike behavior giving that advice should really be taken to heart. <end sarcasm>

 

[preacher4truth]

LOL a "pastor" that loves conflict, confrontation, arguments, division, strife, bullying and general unchristlike behavior giving that advice should really be taken to heart. <end sarcasm>

I do love conflict. Preaching and defending truth is polemic in nature: 2 Tim. 4-1ff. That said I enjoy THAT type of conflict.

Wherever you've come up with bullying and unchristlike behavior is beyond me, that unless you are referring to your own behavior. If you have something specific to show me where I've not been like Christ, do show it. You've done this for years with no hard evidence.

Seriously you should go spend some time in the Word, and in prayer and self-examination by way of exhortation. You've already been reproved, and rebuked, something you can't stomach.

Spend time in the Word. Open that Bible. Pray. Examine. Repent. Praise. Worship. Show forth Christ in your spirit. Glorify him. Go and have some profitable engagement. Who knows, perhaps someday we will be friends and consider one another as such, and we could enjoy a Great Lakes Brew and talk God in person.

 

[Luke2427]

Your normative vs. determined means have been refuted by Skan more times than I can count. The fact you still stubornly hold to such a silly ideal makes everything in quotes above quite hysterical and worthy material for a christian comedian.

See, you don't know what you are talking about.

I have never pitted "normative" against "determined" so to say that that position of mine has been refuted is further proof that you are blind.

Determined IS normative.

I might quite literally be the person on this board who is LEAST likely to pit one against the other.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Biblicist and I may be the means whereby webdog is finally broken and says, "Ok, that's it. I have been wrong. My arguments are weak. My posts are usually nothing more but antagonistic trolling drive-by posts. I have been emotionally invested against Calvinism but now I see it. Thank God for his exhaustive Sovereignty!"

Good luck with that.

 

[quantumfaith]

LOL a "pastor" that loves conflict, confrontation, arguments, division, strife, bullying and general unchristlike behavior giving that advice should really be taken to heart. <end sarcasm>

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