How Do baptists See/Define the Church of God?

[jbh28]

It is not inconsistent.
Where does this universal assembly assemble; who is its pastor; who takes up the offering; who are the deacons; how often does it meet, etc. It is ludicrous to say that you have an assembly that never meets or assembles.

It will assembly one day.

That has nothing to do with today.

It is making members today.

Deal with present realities not with eschatology.

I'll speak as I wish.

If you believe in a universal church that infers that there must be one now, at present, not in the future.

there are currently members of the universal church

You never said I believe there will be a universal church; your belief is the present tense not the future. Again we are not speaking of eschatology. We are dealing with the here and now; the present.

And I'm dealing with the now adding members and we will assemble.

You believe in a universal church right now. That doesn't exist. There is no U-church that exists now. It does not assemble and cannot.
Will be; is not.
I only hope you agree.
Every local church is a body of Christ with Christ as the head.

sorry, but there is a universal church that is being built right now. I'm a member of it. We will meet together one day. that's what we believe. That's what the Bible teaches. As I've said, Jesus said he was building his church. That means it wasn't assembling yet. It still hasn't assembled. It will one day. It's being built. That's why we have the local church today. It represents the universal church since we are not assembled together yet.

You have made a big deal about nothing.

It is a lame argument. Not only we will assembly but we have assembled every Sunday since the church's inception in 1969. You cannot say that about any U-church. It does not assemble on a regular basis. You are looking toward a future event; speaking of eschatology. Deal with the present.

Nice, "lame". It's not "lame" at all. Now you have changed your argument. Now to speak of a church, it must have assembled in the past. That wasn't your argument before. Glad you realize it. Oh, and it's not an argument for me. I'm only showing the flaw of your argument.

Anyway, you have proven to be unable to discuss something like this in a Christlike manner. You get way too angry and cannot deal with what I've stated. In this post you have changed your argument. No need for me to chase you around in a circle. We have local churches but recognize we are all part of Christ's church and will all be together one day. Not going to waste anymore of my time arguing with one that want's to argue about a term that I'm using very legitimately. At least you admit it's an assembly though I'm speaking of it assembling in the future. It only took 11 pages for you to figure that out.

 

[JesusFan]

I have seen the point you were trying to make but IMO opinion it is weak and frivolous. Most people would understand the simple statement: "There is no such thing as an unassembled assembly."
For you I will amplify:
There is no such thing as an unassembled assembly where it is impossible for it to meet on any given day, month, year, throughout all of mankind's history. It has never assembled, does not assemble and will never assemble on this earth. Therefore to call it an assembly goes against the very definition of the word "assembly" (church).
Does that clarify it?

When the Lord "sees" the Church, the Bride and Body of jesus Christ...

Does He see individual local churces, or ONE Church whose Body is broken down among local churces/denominations etc?



God would see a unified/whole and complete BODY, not local assenblies that made up just a PART of that body!

 

[jbh28]

When the Lord "sees" the Church, the Bride and Body of jesus Christ...

Does He see individual local churces, or ONE Church whose Body is broken down among local churces/denominations etc?



God would see a unified/whole and complete BODY, not local assenblies that made up just a PART of that body!

there are many local churches here on earth. There are many bodies of Christ here on earth. But there's only one true church and one true body of Christ which is of all believers. What we have on earth represents the true body of Christ/Church.

I just want make sure people know that I fully believe in the local church. I've been accused of not believing in the local church before which of course in not accurate.

 

[JesusFan]

there are many local churches here on earth. There are many bodies of Christ here on earth. But there's only one true church and one true body of Christ which is of all believers. What we have on earth represents the true body of Christ/Church.

I just want make sure people know that I fully believe in the local church. I've been accused of not believing in the local church before which of course in not accurate.

Think you and I BOTH agree in this!

there is ONLY 1 Church/Body of Christ, ALL odf the saved are its members, who Just so happen to be spread out in heaven, and on earth among local churches/denominations/lone rangers christians etc!

 

[michael-acts17:11]

Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. (Hebrews 10:25)
--We assemble in our assemblies (churches) as our manner (custom) is.
In the early church it was every day, and after that less frequently.

The same directive could be given to a school
Students do not forsake the assembling yourselves together as the manner of your school requires, but exhort each other to do so, and so much the more as the Day of Christ approaches.

Schools are no different than churches in that respect. They assemble. They go home. They still exist when they are not assembled together. Your argument totally falls apart. There is no such thing as a universal school. All students do not belong to one universal school or even a U-school body. No metaphysical entity exists: neither in schools or in churches. They are both local--always.

The school still exists after hours because it is a physical building, a place. The church is not building or a place, it is a people. That is where you err. Your doctrine makes the eternal church out to be a temporal building & a place to meet with God. The church is the eternal body & bride of Christ that meets in local groups for edification & ministry. Your examples of businesses & schools reveals a lack of understanding as to the difference between the spiritual & the physical. Christ did not die for a religious organization, He died for His regenerated bride.

 

[DHK]

The school still exists after hours because it is a physical building, a place. The church is not building or a place, it is a people. That is where you err. Your doctrine makes the eternal church out to be a temporal building & a place to meet with God. The church is the eternal body & bride of Christ that meets in local groups for edification & ministry. Your examples of businesses & schools reveals a lack of understanding as to the difference between the spiritual & the physical. Christ did not die for a religious organization, He died for His regenerated bride.

My daughter is a member of the same school yesterday, today, and tomorrow. She will be home tonight. But when the school is assembled (like the church) she will be there. Schools go through changes (buildings, memberships, etc.). So do churches as time moves on; people move, change, some die, the membership changes. Sometimes the entire membership moves to a location. The analogy between a local school and a local church are uncanny.

Note that most of you speak with a presupposition as already stated fact when it isn't.
"Eternal church," "universal church," etc. There is no such thing. You can't talk of them as fact unless you can prove they exist in the first place.

 

[Tom Butler]

As I've said, Jesus said he was building his church. That means it wasn't assembling yet. It still hasn't assembled. It will one day. It's being built. That's why we have the local church today. It represents the universal church since we are not assembled together yet.

Actually, he was speaking to his church when he said those words. They were assembled in his presence. And, at that point, it was the only church in existence.

By the Day of Pentecost, that little traveling band had grown to at least 120, and they were assembled in Jerusalem. So Jesus did build his church, during his earthly ministry.

 

[michael-acts17:11]

Actually, he was speaking to his church when he said those words. They were assembled in his presence. And, at that point, it was the only church in existence.

By the Day of Pentecost, that little traveling band had grown to at least 120, and they were assembled in Jerusalem. So Jesus did build his church, during his earthly ministry.

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (Mat 16:18)
This is the first mention of the New Testament church in Scripture. The Greek word for "I will build" is in the future tense. It is referring to the occurrence of an event that has not yet occurred. You say it already existed without a single Scriptural reference & Christ said the church was yet to be built.
Christ had to be sacrificed under the Law in order to fulfill the Law. The New Covenant was not in effect until after Christ died. Read Hebrews. There can be no covenanted church before the New Covenant.

 

[Tom Butler]

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (Mat 16:18)
This is the first mention of the New Testament church in Scripture. The Greek word for "I will build" is in the future tense. It is referring to the occurrence of an event that has not yet occurred. You say it already existed without a single Scriptural reference & Christ said the church was yet to be built.
Christ had to be sacrificed under the Law in order to fulfill the Law. The New Covenant was not in effect until after Christ died. Read Hebrews. There can be no covenanted church before the New Covenant.

How did Christ build his church? Did he say some magic words and presto! the church appears?

Naw, I suggest that the way Jesus built his church was to add converted members, one at a time. You have to start somewhere, so he chose the Twelve and added from there. Starting a church and building a church are not the same thing. And, the minute you start a church, all building is in the future.

We know that Jesus sent out seventy disciples on a mission trip fairly early in his ministry. So we know that he built his church from twelve to seventy. And at Pentecost 120 were gathered. If that's not building his church, then the word has lost all meaning.

 

[Tom Butler]

Christ had to be sacrificed under the Law in order to fulfill the Law. The New Covenant was not in effect until after Christ died. Read Hebrews. There can be no covenanted church before the New Covenant.

Let's see what we have before Christ died. We had twelve men, chosen by Jesus. He ordained them. It had a Head, and it had a treasurer. It had a commission. It had a message. It had the ordinances (baptism, Lord's Supper). It had doctrine and teaching. Jesus instructed them on how to deal with a recalcitrant brother, with the ultimate solution: tell it to the church. (Matthew 18)

It had power. One may insist that they were without power until Pentecost. But the seventy disciples returned from a mission trip saying even the demons were subject to them (Luke 10:17) And throughout Jesus' earthly ministry, the disciples saw power displayed in their Head.

It had the Holy Spirit. John 20:22, Jesus: "Receive ye the Holy Spirit..."

So, the question is, what did this group have at Pentecost that it did not have while Jesus was on the earth? The answer is--nothing. If this group was a church after Pentecost, it was a church before Pentecost.

 

[jbh28]

Actually, he was speaking to his church when he said those words. They were assembled in his presence. And, at that point, it was the only church in existence.

By the Day of Pentecost, that little traveling band had grown to at least 120, and they were assembled in Jerusalem. So Jesus did build his church, during his earthly ministry.

Understand and good point. Again, no reason to take time debating over a use of a term. You've been kind, thanks.

 

[Tom Butler]

Understand and good point. Again, no reason to take time debating over a use of a term. You've been kind, thanks.

And may I return the same compliment to you. This has been a good thread, and the tone has been civil even while giving strong arguments for one's position.

 

[percho]

I will build my church.

Is this speaking of that church? Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner. Acts 4:11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. When did this stone become the the head of the corner? Ps 118:24 This the day the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it. Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all he might have the preeminence.

How is the Christ building his church (Body of called out ones.) By the Holy Spirit being given from the Father through the Christ.

Acts 2:32,33 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

At his resurrection he received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit becoming the head of the corner, the foundation to build upon and the Father gives the Holy Spirit to the called out ones through Christ.

The church could not be built until after the resurrection of Jesus.

 

[Tom Butler]

I will build my church.

Is this speaking of that church? Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner. Acts 4:11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. When did this stone become the the head of the corner? Ps 118:24 This the day the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it. Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all he might have the preeminence.

How is the Christ building his church (Body of called out ones.) By the Holy Spirit being given from the Father through the Christ.

Acts 2:32,33 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

At his resurrection he received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit becoming the head of the corner, the foundation to build upon and the Father gives the Holy Spirit to the called out ones through Christ.

The church could not be built until after the resurrection of Jesus.

But in fact it was being built by Jesus prior to his resurrection. I have already pointed out that the original Twelve grew to seventy at one point, and to 120 by Pentecost. I have also pointed out that the church had everything before Pentecost that it had afterward. It had every characteristic before Pentecost that it has today, including supernatural power.

I don't see how Acts 2:22-23 proves your point, or even speaks to your point.

 

[percho]

But in fact it was being built by Jesus prior to his resurrection. I have already pointed out that the original Twelve grew to seventy at one point, and to 120 by Pentecost. I have also pointed out that the church had everything before Pentecost that it had afterward. It had every characteristic before Pentecost that it has today, including supernatural power.

I don't see how Acts 2:22-23 proves your point, or even speaks to your point.

Do you agree, that without the Holy Spirit being shed on the called out ones they would not be called out? It is the Holy Spirit that sets them apart from the rest of mankind.

The path from whence the HS comes. John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. Why does Jesus have to go away or the HS will not be sent? Titus 3:6 Which he (God the Father) shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior; Acts 2:33 last eleven words KJV he (God the Father through Jesus) hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. How does the HS come through Jesus. Acts 2:32 God the Father raised Jesus from the dead. 2:33 Jesus received the promise of the Holy Spirit from the Father. Titus 3:5 by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit Verse 6 then says it was shed on us through Jesus.

How and why did Jesus receive the Holy Spirit, renewed with the Holy Spirit?

First how.
Galatians 3:22 And Galatians 3:14 plainly says the promise of the Holy Spirit is given by the faith OF Jesus Christ.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise, by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit throughthefaith. I put in bold the there because it is in the Greek. Verse 23 speaks of before faith came and verse 25 speaks of after faith is come. Faith came when Jesus the Christ was obedient unto death even the death on the cross. The obedience of faith.

Why
The promise of the Holy Spirit that gives life eternal was made to Abraham and his seed. Abraham at the time the book of Hebrews was written and even up to now died not having the promises. However it was made to Abraham and his seed in the flesh and that seed is Christ. Verse 14
The law was added until the seed should come to whom the promise was made. Verse 19 Jesus the Christ came in the flesh 1 John 4:2
made of woman made under the law Gal. 4:4

It was he the only begotten Son of God in the flesh the Son of man Jesus to whom the promise of the Holy Spirit was made and currently Jesus is the only spiritually resurrected man being the firstborn from the dead.

From Hab 2:4 The just shall live by his faith.

The man justified by the blood of Jesus shall live by the faith of Jesus having received the Promise of the Holy Spirit through Jesus.

That is how Acts 2:32,33 speaks to the point and why the church Christ built could not have been built before his death and resurrection.

 

[Tom Butler]

I guess I'm dense, but I just don't see the connection between the coming of the Holy Spirit and the beginning of the church.

The church was already in existence on the day of Pentecost. In fact, they were in the middle of a business meeting when they were filled with the Holy Ghost. (By the way, the KJV doesn't say baptized, it says filled).

I do think that we find an explanation in Jesus words in John 16:7. Why did Jesus need to go away for the Holy Spirit to come?

When Jesus formed and built his church during his time on earth, he was the Head, he had the power, and empowered his disciples. But he could be only in one place at a time. The coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost was replace Jesus' power with that of the HS, only on a broader scale. We call it "Christ in you." Now he can be everywhere there is a believer, in a way he could not be as a human being bound by time and space.

While we're at it, I'd like to see a discussion of whether Jesus had faith. The question is, why did he need it? He was the Creator of the Universe, Omnipotent, Omniscient.
I'm wondering if the faith "of" Jesus Christ in Galatians 3:22 is a good rendering of that verse. I'm also wondering if it is our faith Paul is talking about, rather than Jesus' faith.

I can see faith "from" Jesus Christ, since the Scriptures clearly teach that faith is a gift.

Did Jesus need faith to promise the coming of the Holy Spirit?

You Geek scholars---uh, Greek scholars--jump in here.

 

[Tom Butler]

By the way, we're moving away from the OP. Can we get back to it? I'm as much to blame for rabbit-chasing as anybody.

 

[michael-acts17:11]

Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. (Joh 14:17)

No indwelling=no NT church.

 

[DHK]

Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. (Joh 14:17)

No indwelling=no NT church.

The age of grace began when believers became indwelt with the Holy Spirit.
The age of the churches; the acts of the apostles; the NT age, all began with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Your point is not valid.

 

[percho]

Define the Church of God?

Can there be called out ones, belonging to Jesus of Nazareth the Christ the Son of God, that is the church, the body of Christ, the household of God without the presence of the Holy Spirit of God in those called out?

Is that not the very essence that establishes the church as the church? The Holy Spirit in you is Christ in you. NOW

In thy seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed. How? by the promise of the Holy Spirit. that we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

If I am not obedient unto death even the death on the cross, the Comforter will not come unto you.

Was this a given? Was it without more temptation than you or I could have over come. This statement is made relative to the authorship and completeness of the faith which is relative to enduring the cross and the shame thereof. Hebrews 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. Luke 22:42-44 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground. Hebrews 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

God beget in the virgin Mary one born a man child, in the flesh of the seed of Abraham. The seed of Abraham was given promises of things he did not have. He was begotten of the Holy Spirit but if he wasn't obedient to that above he would not ever have received the Holy Spirit and we would not also.

When the seed came to whom the promises were made, he came made of woman made under the law. The promise might be given by faith of Christ. Obedience of faith, death on the cross.

Eph 2:8 and Titus 3:5 state what was done that will bring salvation.

By grace are ye saved through the faith. The definite article is there as well as it is in Gal. 3:14, because it is the faith of Christ.
Remember without the resurrection of Jesus there would be no resurrection to eternal life, according to 1 Cor 15 we would die in our sins and perish. So of whom do you think this promise was made before time began? Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
According to his mercy He (not your faith) saved us. Christ by faith in some promises died. By the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 2:33 having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit

Christ received the promises made to Abraham and his seed. We are joint heirs with Christ. Why would the Christ have to be heir of anything? Because he is the seed of Abraham.

God, did empty himself, in the only begotten of the Father in the virgin Mary.
My son, God will prepare himself a lamb.

This is relative to the OP