How do Catholics hear the Gospel?

[GraceSaves]

Originally posted by Chemnitz:
Why not go straight to the source then, why go through a middle man or woman in this case? No offense but the above quote can be read as an attempt to raise Mary above her position.

Yes the Mass can be a great proclamation of the Gospel. It is a shame that the RCC has to bury it under needless, if not harmful, fluff.

Chemnitz,

Catholics go to the source all the time. The Mass is one long prayer to Jesus. That doesn't mean that we can't work with Jesus' brothers and sisters too, though. I'm betting you don't spend all day locked in your closet praying, but that you have a social life, and that you interact, on a regular basis, with other saints like yourself. There's nothing wrong with that, and there's nothing wrong with what we do. It's a difference of opinion, but your belief does not cancel out mine.

And what is this needless, harmful fluff that is in the Mass that is not in a Lutheran celebration of the Lord's Supper?

 

[Dualhunter]

Originally posted by GraceSaves:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Dualhunter:
If baptism is just one step in the process, what happens when a baby that was sprinkled dies without finishing the process. Doesn't the Catholic church teach that the baby's baptism was sufficient to save it?

How many arguments have you brought up in the past 10 minutes? Five? I take it where answering all of them, since you keep moving on. Thanks be to God!

At Baptism, original sin is washed away, and all sins committed up to that point are forgiven. If the baby died right away, the baby would be in a state of grace, thanks be to God! When you live to be 80, you tend to have a pretty high chance of messing up, and thus the process requires extra things (confessing of ones sins and seeking forgiveness, etc, etc, etc).

God bless,

Grant</font>[/QUOTE]You have not answered my point, your answers are flawed which is why I respond with another post. What you've described is a process where a person helps God save him or her by works, a blatant denial of the sufficiency of Christ.

You admit that there are have been some terrible popes who show no evidence of knowing the Truth and plenty that they don't and still you would trust in a human organization which claims that these men knew Truth despite their abominable action just because they hold a human office. Very dangerous, not something that I'd recommend to anybody.

 

[GraceSaves]

Originally posted by Dualhunter:
You have not answered my point, your answers are flawed which is why I respond with another post. What you've described is a process where a person helps God save him or her by works, a blatant denial of the sufficiency of Christ.

So "being Baptised" is a work, but "asking Jesus into my Heart" is not a work. You say tomato, I say tomahto.

Originally posted by Dualhunter:
You admit that there are have been some terrible popes who show no evidence of knowing the Truth and plenty that they don't and still you would trust in a human organization which claims that these men knew Truth despite their abominable action just because they hold a human office. Very dangerous, not something that I'd recommend to anybody.

Sure, because none of these false teachings have ever become binding Church doctrine. And that's what matters, and that is what the Holy Spirit guides and protects, even through corrupt men.

God bless,

Grant

 

[Chemnitz]

"All life, all holiness comes from you through your Son, Jesus Christ our Lord, by the working of the Holy Spirit . . .

Father, calling to mind the death your Son endured for our salvation, his glorious resurrection and ascension into heaven, and ready to greet him when he comes again, we offer you in thanksgiving this holy and living sacrifice. Look with favor on our your Church's offering, and see the Victim [Christ] who death has reconciled us to yourself . . .

Why don't we start with the idea that the Mass is a sacrifice we can offer ourselves. This is wrong on two levels. First the most obvious is that this sacrifice can only be offered by Jesus himself, not by us men. Second, is this is works-righteousness and is related to the first. If you believe that you can offer up a sacrifice you believe that you can do works that can change God's attitude toward you, even though the Bible is quite plan that we cannot do anything to please God.

You won't find this understanding of the Sacrifice of the Mass in any of the orthodox Lutheran teachings or practices.

 

[CatholicConvert]

The reason that the thief on the cross was not baptized nor required to be was that he was dying in the Old Covenant. All that was required of believers in the Old Covenant was circumcision in faith of the coming Messiah. Since he recognized Christ and made a profession of faith in this coming Messiah as being right there beside him, then his faith, having already entered the covenant through baptism, was salvific for him.

Brother Ed

 

[GraceSaves]

Originally posted by Chemnitz:
Why don't we start with the idea that the Mass is a sacrifice we can offer ourselves. This is wrong on two levels. First the most obvious is that this sacrifice can only be offered by Jesus himself, not by us men. Second, is this is works-righteousness and is related to the first. If you believe that you can offer up a sacrifice you believe that you can do works that can change God's attitude toward you, even though the Bible is quite plan that we cannot do anything to please God.

You won't find this understanding of the Sacrifice of the Mass in any of the orthodox Lutheran teachings or practices.

CCC 1357
We carry out this command of the Lord by celebrating the memorial of his sacrifice. In doing so, we offer to the Father what he has himself given us: the gifts of his creation, bread and wine which, by the power of the Holy Spirit and by the words of Christ, have become the body and blood of Christ. Christ is thus really and mysteriously made present.

Read it again. We can only offer what God has already given us, and it is by the power of the Holy Spirit and the words of Christ that the Lord's Supper becomes alive.

God bless,

Grant

 

[Dualhunter]

Being baptized is a physical action (ie. work), accepting what Christ has done for you is faith.

15 Everyone who (1) hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that (2) no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. - 1 John 3:15 NASB

Isn't it funny that faith without works is only dead if you're not Catholic. You are presented with a dilema, either the popes who either actively supported attrocities or simply stood by and did nothing to prevent them were excused from works or they were dead in their sins and you're claiming that a dead man had the Spirit of God in him.

The thief on the cross did not meet the requirements of the Old Covenant which includes about 613 commandments not the 2 that you listed, his only hope was complete trust in Christ.

 

[Chemnitz]

CCC 1357
We carry out this command of the Lord by celebrating the memorial of his sacrifice. In doing so, we offer to the Father what he has himself given us: the gifts of his creation, bread and wine which, by the power of the Holy Spirit and by the words of Christ, have become the body and blood of Christ. Christ is thus really and mysteriously made present.

Again the belief that you can offer something that has already been offered is a false teaching, because it teaches that you can do something for your salvation and offer up works that are pleasing to God. The Body and Blood were given to us to strengthen and preserve faith and through that faith convey the forgiveness of sins bought for us through Christ's sacrifice on our behalf. It was not given to us, so that we can offer it as a sacrifice to God.

 

[GraceSaves]

Originally posted by Chemnitz:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />CCC 1357
We carry out this command of the Lord by celebrating the memorial of his sacrifice. In doing so, we offer to the Father what he has himself given us: the gifts of his creation, bread and wine which, by the power of the Holy Spirit and by the words of Christ, have become the body and blood of Christ. Christ is thus really and mysteriously made present.

Again the belief that you can offer something that has already been offered is a false teaching, because it teaches that you can do something for your salvation and offer up works that are pleasing to God. The Body and Blood were given to us to strengthen and preserve faith and through that faith convey the forgiveness of sins bought for us through Christ's sacrifice on our behalf. It was not given to us, so that we can offer it as a sacrifice to God.</font>[/QUOTE]I'll admit; I'm confused here. A Lutheran minister takes bread and wine, speaks the words of Jesus, and Christ's Body and Blood are present (as you believe) in the bread and wine. Please explain to me how this differs. I honestly don't understand.

 

[GraceSaves]

Originally posted by Dualhunter:
Being baptized is a physical action (ie. work), accepting what Christ has done for you is faith.

If you already have faith, then Christ is already present in your heart. So why do you have to ask Him in?

God bless,

Grant

 

[Dualhunter]

The asking is the acceptance, faith is not just believing what you are told. It is trust. To trust Christ you must admit your need for Him which is what a person is doing when inviting Him into his or her heart.

 

[GraceSaves]

Originally posted by Dualhunter:
The asking is the acceptance, faith is not just believing what you are told. It is trust. To trust Christ you must admit your need for Him which is what a person is doing when inviting Him into his or her heart.

To trust Christ, you say, you "MUST ADMIT" your need for Him.

Then you "invite" Him into your heart.

Good luck convincing me that these are not works in the same way you call Baptism a work.

 

[Ps104_33]

It's no wonder you dislike the Catholic Church so much. Who claimed Baptism saves? Last I checked, the belief was that no one can be saved unless he is baptised. That means that Baptism is one step in the salvation process. It, in itself, is not salvation.

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Justification is a past event not an "ongoing" process.

Again Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Did you see that? What a blessing that is! HALLELUJAH!

 

[Chemnitz]

It differs because we do not believe that we are offering a sacrifice to God only passively accepting what He did for free. It differs because we believe it is something God did for us and the sacrifice of the mass as taught by RCC teaches that it is something you do for God to earn a measure of Grace.

 

[GraceSaves]

Originally posted by Ps104_33:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />It's no wonder you dislike the Catholic Church so much. Who claimed Baptism saves? Last I checked, the belief was that no one can be saved unless he is baptised. That means that Baptism is one step in the salvation process. It, in itself, is not salvation.

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Justification is a past event not an "ongoing" process.

Again Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Did you see that? What a blessing that is! HALLELUJAH!</font>[/QUOTE]I agree. Every time we fall away, we come back to Christ's infinite grace and receive forgiveness for our sins, thus restoring this justification which we turned away from. Then we are once again right with the Lord. But there's no guarantee we won't fall again, and then must turn back to Christ and His mercy.

It never said "now and forever," now, did it?

God bless,

Grant

 

[Dualhunter]

Originally posted by GraceSaves:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Dualhunter:
The asking is the acceptance, faith is not just believing what you are told. It is trust. To trust Christ you must admit your need for Him which is what a person is doing when inviting Him into his or her heart.

To trust Christ, you say, you "MUST ADMIT" your need for Him.

Then you "invite" Him into your heart.

Good luck convincing me that these are not works in the same way you call Baptism a work.</font>[/QUOTE]Any claim of acceptance of Christ is invalidated if the person making the claim denies their sin and/or rejects that Christ is the only solution. It's not a matter of doing a bunch of things, it is simply a matter of complete and genuine trust in the finished work of Christ alone without trying to add to it with works.

 

[GraceSaves]

Originally posted by Chemnitz:
It differs because we do not believe that we are offering a sacrifice to God only passively accepting what He did for free. It differs because we believe it is something God did for us and the sacrifice of the mass as taught by RCC teaches that it is something you do for God to earn a measure of Grace.

As humans, creatures, made by God, we have nothing that we can offer Him ourselves, which is why we offer His only Son and pray for His mercy. We offer nothing of ourselves, but only that one and final sacrifice that Christ paid for us. It's not a new sacrifice, but the same sacrifice reoffered.

God bless,

Grant

 

[GraceSaves]

Originally posted by Dualhunter:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by GraceSaves:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Dualhunter:
The asking is the acceptance, faith is not just believing what you are told. It is trust. To trust Christ you must admit your need for Him which is what a person is doing when inviting Him into his or her heart.

To trust Christ, you say, you "MUST ADMIT" your need for Him.

Then you "invite" Him into your heart.

Good luck convincing me that these are not works in the same way you call Baptism a work.</font>[/QUOTE]Any claim of acceptance of Christ is invalidated if the person making the claim denies their sin and/or rejects that Christ is the only solution. It's not a matter of doing a bunch of things, it is simply a matter of complete and genuine trust in the finished work of Christ alone without trying to add to it with works.</font>[/QUOTE]Amen. I agree!

God bless,

Grant

 

[Dualhunter]

Originally posted by GraceSaves:
I agree. Every time we fall away, we come back to Christ's infinite grace and receive forgiveness for our sins, thus restoring this justification which we turned away from. Then we are once again right with the Lord. But there's no guarantee we won't fall again, and then must turn back to Christ and His mercy.

It never said "now and forever," now, did it?

God bless,

Grant

The problem with trying to do it by your own strength (yes I know you claim not to do it by your own strength but the evidence says otherwise) is that you always have to worry about falling away. When you really are doing it by Christ, you are in His hands, not your own and so rather than worrying about your inability you can trust in Christ's ability to keep you safe.

 

[GH]

Good luck convincing me that these are not works in the same way you call Baptism a work.

Excellent point.

Rom. 4:4

Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

Peace, Diane