How do Catholics hear the Gospel?

[Dualhunter]

Originally posted by GraceSaves:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Chemnitz:
It differs because we do not believe that we are offering a sacrifice to God only passively accepting what He did for free. It differs because we believe it is something God did for us and the sacrifice of the mass as taught by RCC teaches that it is something you do for God to earn a measure of Grace.

As humans, creatures, made by God, we have nothing that we can offer Him ourselves, which is why we offer His only Son and pray for His mercy. We offer nothing of ourselves, but only that one and final sacrifice that Christ paid for us. It's not a new sacrifice, but the same sacrifice reoffered.

God bless,

Grant</font>[/QUOTE]And why does it need to be reoffered?

 

[GraceSaves]

Originally posted by Dualhunter:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by GraceSaves:
I agree. Every time we fall away, we come back to Christ's infinite grace and receive forgiveness for our sins, thus restoring this justification which we turned away from. Then we are once again right with the Lord. But there's no guarantee we won't fall again, and then must turn back to Christ and His mercy.

It never said "now and forever," now, did it?

God bless,

Grant

The problem with trying to do it by your own strength (yes I know you claim not to do it by your own strength but the evidence says otherwise) is that you always have to worry about falling away. When you really are doing it by Christ, you are in His hands, not your own and so rather than worrying about your inability you can trust in Christ's ability to keep you safe.</font>[/QUOTE]Do you deny free will? Sounds like it.

While it's true that no man and no thing can snatch us away from Christ's hand...it never says we can't chose to jump out. And when/if we do, we have to run back and jump back in, returning to the safety of His miraculous hands. But the fact of the matter is that we are not perfect, and we do jump out of his hand every time we sin (which we all do).

The problem here is that you confuse "works of the law" with works that occur because of the grace of Christ.

God bless,

Grant

 

[GraceSaves]

Originally posted by Dualhunter:
And why does it need to be reoffered?

again. Please explain how Christ's body and blood is made present at the Lord's Supper in your Church if it is not a re-presentation of the same sacrifice.

 

[Dualhunter]

I do not deny free will. Jonah had free will but that did not stop God's will from being done. God is sovereign despite our free will. We have free will because we are not forced to choose one way or the other, that does not mean that things do not influence our choices. The Holy Spirit is a powerful influence which Jesus has promised to all who believe and the life changing power of the Spirit keeps us in God's hands despite any stubborness we might have.

 

[CatholicConvert]

Chemnitz --

You are Lutheran, right?

You do know, don't you, that Luther retained a profound Marian veneration all the days of his life, right?

As for your statement regarding the elevation of the Theotokos -- this is something that I had to deal with when I came into the Orthodox Catholic Church. Providentially, I came to the answer rather quickly and had less problems with this than with other issues.

Remember, the redemptive work of Christ was done so that the physical creation could be redeemed. If you go back and study the small amount of information we have on the first family of mankind, we see some interesting things. Adam and Eve were given authority over the earth and told to subdue it.

Now suppose that Adam came out of where ever he spent the night and seeing a cloud in the sky, decided that he would like to have a day without clouds and said "Cloud -- gone!" Remember, because he was bearing God's authority in him, what he said would happen.

Would Adam be usurping God's authority or acting in it? I think you know the answer.

Well, in the same vein, the Blessed Virgin is the new Eve of the restored Garden Covenant. Remember, Christ came to die that all which was destroyed in the Garden be restored. Thus, He bears the name of "the Last Adam". Jesus, as perfect humanity, restores the covenantal headship of Adam. But for this to be complete, He must also restore Eve or the physical and earthly aspect of the redemption is not complete.

So we have Jesus and the Blessed Virgin who are tne Last Adam and the New Eve. They are the new covenantal headship over the human race. They have taken the place of Adam and Eve, who, had they not sinned, would have been king and queen over their children -- all mankind. And they would have had authority.

The authority which the Blessed Virgin has is therefore the authority She bears in ONENESS with Christ. She does not bear this authority outside of herself or by herself. She is to mankind what Eve would have been if the Fall had not occurred -- Mother of all and bearer of the authority of the one who is head of the covenant.

Let me give you the smallest picture I can of this: the nuclear family. In the traditional family operating along Judeo-Christian ethic of the family (in other words, not some feminazi perversion of the family) the father is the head. He is the authority and ultimately, his word is the LAW. The mother operates as ONE with him (remember the "one flesh" relationship of marriage?). As such, she gives orders also to everyone in the household but the father.

Can you imagine for a second some sprout of a child telling his mother "You're not the boss and you cannot order me around."

WOW!! There would be flamin' hell on that kid's backside that evening, I garantee you that!!! And why? Because to sass the mother bearing her authority is to sass the father who gives it to her by virtue of their oneness.

I think that one of the problems which accompanies Marian devotions is that the statements of honor to Our Lady are not necessarily accompanied by an explanation which says what I have said above. Therefore, those non-Catholic and Orthodox who hear us think that we are honoring the Blessed Virgin alone for what She is intrinsically outside of Christ! Nothing is further from the truth. It also doesn't help that Catholics and Orthodox cannot explain these principles of covenantal headship and authority better when they speak of the Blessed Virgin.

BTW -- Just for you curiousity, today is the celebration of the Protection of the Mother of God. History records that almost 1000 years ago in Constantinople, the Tartars were "at the gates" so to speak. The city was in great alarm and great prayer was made for protection. In response to this prayer, the Blessed Virgin appeared over the city and spread above the city her blue mantle of protection. The invaders were destroyed (by a storm of fierce magnitude if I remember all correctly) and the city and the believers therein were spared from certain death and destruction. The Orthodox Church has continued to celebrate this deliverance every year since then.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

 

[Dualhunter]

Originally posted by GraceSaves:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Dualhunter:
And why does it need to be reoffered?

again. Please explain how Christ's body and blood is made present at the Lord's Supper in your Church if it is not a re-presentation of the same sacrifice.</font>[/QUOTE]His body and blood are not physically present, rather we reflect on the sacrifice that Christ by which we have life, that was performed once and for all on the cross about 2000 years ago.

 

[CatholicConvert]

Wrong again, Dual.

The ONLY requirement to be part of the covenant nation was to be circumcized. Go back and read it for yourself in the OT. Circumcision was what made one part of the covenant....nothing else. And of course, faith accompanied and preceeded circumcision.

And in the case of adult converts to the faith.....MAN!!! you would have to have a LOT of faith looking at them flint knives!!!

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

 

[Dualhunter]

Originally posted by CatholicConvert:
Wrong again, Dual.

The ONLY requirement to be part of the covenant nation was to be circumcized. Go back and read it for yourself in the OT. Circumcision was what made one part of the covenant....nothing else. And of course, faith accompanied and preceeded circumcision.

And in the case of adult converts to the faith.....MAN!!! you would have to have a LOT of faith looking at them flint knives!!!

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

"All that was required of believers in the Old Covenant was circumcision in faith of the coming Messiah."

If a person did not keep the Law, they were to be cut off from the people of Israel, perhaps you should go back and read the OT.

 

[CatholicConvert]

Jesus never mentioned baptism on the cross, why would the thief desire baptism having never heard of it?

The reason that Jesus didn't mention baptism on the Cross was that the thief had already "cut covenant" with God through circumcision. He didn't need to be made a part of the covenantal nation, he already was part of it. What he did need to do was to repent and make a statement of faith in Messiah. This he did, therefore, being in the Old Covenant still, he was no longer "cut off" from the nation (assuming in the first place that he was cut off, which we really do not know, do we?) but died in communion with the convenantal nation of Israel and in faith in Messiah.

And I wasn't talking about being "cut off" anyway. You brought up baptism, so I was answering in kind. Baptism is to the New Covenant what circumcision is to the Old -- the entrance into the covenantal nation by "cutting covenant" with God.

Did I get it clear this time?

Brother Ed

[ September 29, 2002, 06:52 PM: Message edited by: CatholicConvert ]

 

[Chemnitz]

As humans, creatures, made by God, we have nothing that we can offer Him ourselves, which is why we offer His only Son and pray for His mercy. We offer nothing of ourselves, but only that one and final sacrifice that Christ paid for us. It's not a new sacrifice, but the same sacrifice reoffered.

Again you are following the false idea that you can and need to reoffer a sacrifice that was already made. That is works-righteousness the idea that you can offer anything that is acceptable to God. The sacrifice was made once and for all on the cross, it does not reoccur everytime we celebrate communion.

Chemnitz --

You are Lutheran, right?

Duh! I mean how long have we been on this board together.

You do know, don't you, that Luther retained a profound Marian veneration all the days of his life, right?

Yes he held her in high esteem because she was the mother of God. However, he denied the immaculate conception of Mary, the ability of her to offer grace en ex operato, and the pious devotions done in her name. She is only a sinner just like you and me and is not worthy of the amount of devotion that the RCC and EO give to her.

Well, in the same vein, the Blessed Virgin is the new Eve of the restored Garden Covenant. Remember, Christ came to die that all which was destroyed in the Garden be restored. Thus, He bears the name of "the Last Adam". Jesus, as perfect humanity, restores the covenantal headship of Adam. But for this to be complete, He must also restore Eve or the physical and earthly aspect of the redemption is not complete.

In your analogy shouldn't the church be the new Eve? Particularly if as the Bible says Jesus is the new Adam, then shouldn't the church, who is to be his bride, be the new Eve.

 

[CatholicConvert]

Again you are following the false idea that you can and need to reoffer a sacrifice that was already made.

If we do not have a sacrifice, we do not have remission of our sins. This is a very simple concept. We must offer sacrifice for our sins whenever we commit sins.

The sacrifice is still available. John saw it in Heaven some 40 years after it was done in chronological time. In the mystery of God's timelessness it exists without end.

That is works-righteousness the idea that you can offer anything that is acceptable to God.

No, not at all. We offer the sacrifice which He ordained us to offer. "Works righteousness" would be if we were to offer something that He never told us to offer and then expected Him to accept it on our merit. We offer Christ, the Lamb of God, and expect that God accepts this sacrifice based on the merit of Christ.

The sacrifice was made once and for all on the cross, it does not reoccur everytime we celebrate communion.

If you mean that it does not happen over and over and over again, then yes, that is correct. But what is also true about it is that it is ever present and exists forever in timeless eternity.

And you know where I first got this concept? Before I was even Orthodox. As a Presbyterian I used to kneel by my bed and as I confessed my specific sins, I imagined the Cross being right there in timeless eternity. I would life up my hand and place it symbolically on the Cross I believed was still there for me for the expiation of my sins.

Duh! I mean how long have we been on this board together.

Actually, very little. You are one of the people I have had very little discourse with, hence my question. Therefore, you really didn't need the insult at the beginning of that sentence.

Yes he held her in high esteem because she was the mother of God. However, he denied the immaculate conception of Mary, the ability of her to offer grace en ex operato, and the pious devotions done in her name. She is only a sinner just like you and me and is not worthy of the amount of devotion that the RCC and EO give to her.

A sinner yes, but a very special person in God's salvational economia. So special that He did not suffer Her to be born with sin, but applied the Blood of Christ to Her, forgiving and cleansing Her prior to Her birth. Thus She was made the pure and clean Ark of the New Covenant.

In your analogy shouldn't the church be the new Eve? Particularly if as the Bible says Jesus is the new Adam, then shouldn't the church, who is to be his bride, be the new Eve.

EXCELLENT!!! I'm glad you see that. Since both the coveanantal heads of the New Covenant have been promoted to Heaven, there needs to be both a male (covenantal head) and a female (helpmeet to the head) over the physical and earthly family of God still here on our journey. Yes indeed, the Church is the New Eve in that sense. This is why much of Catholic and Orthodox theology sees the Church and the Blessed Virgin as interchageable in Rev. 12. That is why the Church is feminine in Her description.

And ultimately, the union of the male (Holy Father) and the female (Church), their co-opertive work together brings forth offspring (believers).

Good job on that one!!

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

 

[Chemnitz]

Actually, very little. You are one of the people I have had very little discourse with, hence my question. Therefore, you really didn't need the insult at the beginning of that sentence.

I am sorry if you were insulted, I meant it light heartedly.

 

[CatholicConvert]

Accepted. This is the problem with forums, we can't hear the lightheartedness or see the grin on the other person's face as they type.

God bless!!

Brother Ed

 

[Johnv]

Did y'all know that during a Catholic Mass, there is at least one reading at length from one of the Gospels? (In a full mass, you'll hear three bible readings: one from the OT, one from the NT non-gospels, and one from the NT Gospels). Not a verse here or there, but a full reading. The sermon topic is typically about the Gospel (since that is the last reading before the sermon).

IF a Catholic is not hearing the Gospel in church, perhaps it is because he or she in not listening.

 

[GraceSaves]

Chemnitz,

Luther never denied the Immaculate Conception.

"God has formed the soul and body of the Virgin Mary full of the Holy Spirit, so that she is without all sins, "
- Martin Luther, Martin Luther's Works, vol 52, pg 39

"It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary's soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God's gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin" (Sermon: "On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God," 1527).

"She is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin- something exceedingly great. For God's grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil." (Personal {"Little"} Prayer Book, 1522).

He also fully held to her Perpetual Viriginity, etc.

Just check the Lutheran Confessions, when he states that she was "always holy."

God bless,

Grant

 

[CatholicConvert]

Johnv --

What you need to remember is that when a Protestant says "Hear the Gospel...", what they mean is that they must hear a message in which it is distinctly said "YOU are a sinner. YOU deserve to go to hell. YOU need to come up here right now and accept Jesus as YOUR personal Savior"

Just hearing the Gospels and Epistles read is not enough. A "real" Gospel message always has that element of personal application and acceptance.

The corporate form of worship and salvation is not the true Gospel for the very reason that it does not "bring it down into the pews" in these people's minds.

I would say that this problem is not one of liturgy, but of the parents being so busy chasing the things of the world which are really important that they do not take the time or effort to understand their children's spiritual state. Parents who neither live for or discuss spiritual issues once they leave the doors of the parish are asking to raise kids who will eventually either leave the Church or, like Margaret Sanger (she was a Catholic, did you know that, who's father felt that HIS ideas were better than those of 2000 years of teaching, and thus raised a rebel who founded the murderous Planned Parenthood organization) will cause the Church NOTHING BUT TROUBLE.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

 

[Johnv]

YOU are a sinner. YOU deserve to go to hell. YOU need to come up here right now and accept Jesus as YOUR personal Savior

You be glad to know that that's exactly what I was told in my Catholic church and school growing up. We just called it "Catholic guilt"

 

[GraceSaves]

Originally posted by Dualhunter:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by GraceSaves:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Dualhunter:
And why does it need to be reoffered?

again. Please explain how Christ's body and blood is made present at the Lord's Supper in your Church if it is not a re-presentation of the same sacrifice.</font>[/QUOTE]His body and blood are not physically present, rather we reflect on the sacrifice that Christ by which we have life, that was performed once and for all on the cross about 2000 years ago.</font>[/QUOTE]This was for Chemnitz, DualHunter.

 

[Chemnitz]

"God has formed the soul and body of the Virgin Mary full of the Holy Spirit, so that she is without all sins, "
- Martin Luther, Martin Luther's Works, vol 52, pg 39

I would like to know the source of your quote, because that quote does not exist.

Just check the Lutheran Confessions, when he states that she was "always holy."

Luther didn't write the entirety of the confessions, he only wrote the Schmalcald articles. Besides which your quote is a contested reading (Book of Concord Kolb/Wengert).

In volume 32 article 28 Luther defends the right of people to believe that the immaculate conception of Mary is false.

Officially the perpetual virginity of Mary is concidered an open question, because a. it is not a vital doctrine b. there is enough evidence for both arguments and is thus ambigous.

No, not at all. We offer the sacrifice which He ordained us to offer. "Works righteousness" would be if we were to offer something that He never told us to offer and then expected Him to accept it on our merit. We offer Christ, the Lamb of God, and expect that God accepts this sacrifice based on the merit of Christ.

But God didn't give it to us to offer. He did that himself. So to say you can offer a sacrifice is works-righteousness.

[ September 30, 2002, 04:59 PM: Message edited by: Chemnitz ]

 

[CatholicConvert]

Chemnitz --

You are being silly. (sorry, almost forgot my smiley to let you know no malice is intended) Since when is obeying God "works"? To obey Him, to live in submission to His will is what we were created for.

Since God tells us to offer Him acceptable sacrifice, then if we do so, we are merely keeping the terms of the covenantal relationship we have entered into with Him.

That is simply not works.

"To obey is better than sacrifice..." God

Brother Ed

[ September 30, 2002, 05:48 PM: Message edited by: CatholicConvert ]