How do Catholics hear the Gospel?

[Chemnitz]

Your argument still doesn't address that the deuterocanonical books were present since the Council of Hippo as part of the Canon of Scripture, and this was merely reaffirmed and formally declared at Trent since this was being openly challenged.

The Council of Hippo wasn't an ecumenical council. It was rather a regional council and if I recall only affirmed them as devotional material. Of course you haven't addressed the fact why the council decided it felt the need to add books to the OT canon.

So, according to this little argument, it's not clear, and I am not wrong in holding my belief that Luther (or his colleages) intended to show the Immaculate Conception of Mary. And since Luther is gone, and the Lutheran Church is split in more than three ways, the authority is split. Frankly, anyone is free to interpret the Lutheran Confessions as he (or she) sees fit, since the authors are long gone and left no sucessors.

Actually I think it is perfectly clear. It just doesn't mean what you think it means.

Yes, becuase my Church doesn't pretend and hide behind a belief of Sola Scriptura that it doesn't actually intend to follow.

We don't hide behind it, you just don't understand the concept of sola scriptura. We do follow sola sciptura, which means all of our doctrine is formulated from scripture alone. Which is in contrast to the rcc who formulates their doctrine by scripture plus tradition.

 

[mozier]

There is something you always have to remember about the Roman Catholic Institution: they talk out of both sides of their mouth.

To clarify: there is always one set of "official teaching," and then there is what is actually practiced. For example, they say that they do not worship Mary, but if you have ever seen one of those Fatima rallies, where they parade a statue of Mary all over the place and bow down to that statue, then you know what is actually taking place!

Also, they claim to love Jesus, but which Jesus? The Jesus of the Bible, or the False Wafer Jesus? If you've seen Roman Catholics bowing down to a piece of bread in a gold-plated monstrance, then you know what is happening. Again, idolatry.

And when you read a book like Alphonsus Ligouri's The Glories of Mary (which has the Institution's official Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat on it!), where it reads that if a soul was condemned by Jesus at the Judgement, Mary would still "open a side window and let that soul into heaven," then can you be with any doubt? I cannot.

And then, the ultimate blasphemy against God: The Mass. Despite all of the words and appearance that it is "biblical," it is NOT! Nothing is more offensive to God than this ultimate idolatry, where Jesus' ultimate sacrifice, once offered, is "reoffered" again and again again, numerous times every day. (Yes, CatholicConvert, I know it is not an official "resacrificing." But again, it is yet another Roman Catholic smokescreen on what is actually happening). Christ was ONCE offered, and never to be done or replayed or redone or reenacted ever again! AMEN!

When I consider all of that time I was in the Roman Catholic Institution and how close I came to becoming a Roman Catholic priest, I shudder to think how I would have been offending God every day in my "offering" of the sacrifice once offered. Thank you, Jesus, for getting me out of the seminary, leading me out of celibacy and into a wonderful marriage, and finally out of the satanic Roman Catholic Institution.

mozier

 

[GraceSaves]

Originally posted by mozier:
There is something you always have to remember about the Roman Catholic Institution: they talk out of both sides of their mouth.

Let's take a look, shall we?

Originally posted by mozier:
To clarify: there is always one set of "official teaching," and then there is what is actually practiced.

So, according to you, the teachings are not bad, but the actual practicing of the faith is. So, the doctrines of the Catholic Church, according to you, are apparently not wrong. Catholics just don't follow those teachings. Interesting.

Originally posted by mozier:
For example, they say that they do not worship Mary, but if you have ever seen one of those Fatima rallies, where they parade a statue of Mary all over the place and bow down to that statue, then you know what is actually taking place!

This is like the picture of the Pope receiving a blessing from a voodoo priestess; the origin of that photo is unknown, nor is the location of the event, nor who the woman is. It's a picture, that without context, looks like something that it is not. Pictures are deceiving that way, and it's been shown time and time again that the information that always follows this picture is completely, 100% fabricated.

So, why don't you tell us the words that were being spoken at this rally, and maybe a video reel (surely someone has footage of it online) so that we can witness this for ourselves. You talk big, but you completely don't back it up.

Originally posted by mozier:
Also, they claim to love Jesus, but which Jesus? The Jesus of the Bible, or the False Wafer Jesus? If you've seen Roman Catholics bowing down to a piece of bread in a gold-plated monstrance, then you know what is happening. Again, idolatry.

Oh, that's not problem, because that's one and the same Jesus. Perhaps your problem is that you differentiate the two.

Originally posted by mozier:
And when you read a book like Alphonsus Ligouri's The Glories of Mary (which has the Institution's official Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat on it!), where it reads that if a soul was condemned by Jesus at the Judgement, Mary would still "open a side window and let that soul into heaven," then can you be with any doubt? I cannot.

Again, one line without context, and based on what I've read in that book, that is not the language used, and I very much question if you quoted or paraphrased (or made it up). Please clarify if that's a quote, and where in the book I might look it up so that I can have full context.

Originally posted by mozier:
And then, the ultimate blasphemy against God: The Mass. Despite all of the words and appearance that it is "biblical," it is NOT! Nothing is more offensive to God than this ultimate idolatry, where Jesus' ultimate sacrifice, once offered, is "reoffered" again and again again, numerous times every day. (Yes, CatholicConvert, I know it is not an official "resacrificing." But again, it is yet another Roman Catholic smokescreen on what is actually happening). Christ was ONCE offered, and never to be done or replayed or redone or reenacted ever again! AMEN!

Let's follow your logic. The Mass is blasphemy because it is not Biblical. Why is it not Biblical? Oh, you didn't say why. The Mass is a smokescreen. Why? Oh, you don't explain; you even acknowledge that it's the same offering, but then call it blaspheming for offering the same offering. Christ was only offered once, but this act of redemption is eternal. Did Christ only die for those alive that day, or every person to be born since until the end of time? I think you'll agree it's the latter, and thus this SINGLE and ONE sacrifice continues to live and save souls forever until He comes again.

In other words, you don't prove anything here.

Originally posted by mozier:
When I consider all of that time I was in the Roman Catholic Institution and how close I came to becoming a Roman Catholic priest, I shudder to think how I would have been offending God every day in my "offering" of the sacrifice once offered. Thank you, Jesus, for getting me out of the seminary, leading me out of celibacy and into a wonderful marriage, and finally out of the satanic Roman Catholic Institution.

mozier

I respectfully disagree.

God bless,

Grant

 

[Jude]

Don't make the exception the rule. Jesus said...

Matthew 28:18-20 RSV
And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”

Baptism IS salvific-it brings us into the Body of Christ. Of course, by itself, does not guarantee salvation. But it begins the process, it brings one into the community of Jesus Christ.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Baptism is symbolic. It is a public profession. It has nothing to do with one's salvation. It is a declaration. Non-baptized believers might be out of God's will, but they are still saved.

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by mozier:
And then, the ultimate blasphemy against God: The Mass. Despite all of the words and appearance that it is "biblical," it is NOT! Nothing is more offensive to God than this ultimate idolatry, where Jesus' ultimate sacrifice, once offered, is "reoffered" again and again again, numerous times every day. (Yes, CatholicConvert, I know it is not an official "resacrificing." But again, it is yet another Roman Catholic smokescreen on what is actually happening). Christ was ONCE offered, and never to be done or replayed or redone or reenacted ever again! AMEN!

When I consider all of that time I was in the Roman Catholic Institution and how close I came to becoming a Roman Catholic priest, I shudder to think how I would have been offending God every day in my "offering" of the sacrifice once offered.

Mozier, can you reconcile the above with Revelation 13:8?

"All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world ."

It seems that you wish to limit our Lord's sacrifice to a matter of mere hours on this earth.

It also seems that you prefer a church like the one described in the Book of Daniel; with an altar but no daily sacrifice.

Daniel 11:31
"And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation ."

Daniel 12:11
"And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up , there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days."

Ron

[ October 08, 2002, 07:58 AM: Message edited by: trying2understand ]

 

[mozier]

Ron,

Do not try your romish twisting of scripture on me.

I am wise to it.

mozier

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by mozier:
Ron,

Do not try your romish twisting of scripture on me.

I am wise to it.

mozier

Then in your wisdom, perhaps you could answer my question.

How do you reconcile your beliefs with the Scriptures that I cite?

Ron

 

[mozier]

Ron,

I want to make myself clear, Ron, so read this carefully:

I WILL NOT PLAY YOUR POPISH GAME!!!!!!!!!!

mozier

 

[Chemnitz]

I guess Mr. Jack Chick, excuse me Mozier, is afraid of a little challenge.

 

[dumbox1]

I WILL NOT PLAY YOUR POPISH GAME!!!!!!!!!!

So I guess Parcheesi would be totally out of the question, then . . .

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by mozier:
... then you know what is actually taking place!

...then you know what is happening. Again, idolatry.

...then can you be with any doubt? I cannot.

It seems that you prefer your game of reading the hearts of others.

Ron

 

[CatholicConvert]

WOOOOOOWWW DHK!!!!

Hey, this new guy Mozier make you look like a Jesuit!!

Hey, Mozier, something I have never quite understood. Maybe you will be the one to explain it to me. Why do X Catholics have such absolute venom against the Church?

What's the deal?

I'd answer your posts, but I have a feeling I'd just be a wastin' my time.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed -- Fundamentalist 13 years, Calvinist 12 years -- HOME at Last!!!

 

[CatholicConvert]

I WILL NOT PLAY YOUR POPISH GAME!!!!!!!!!

Oh......

I read that real quick and thought it said

I WILL NOT PLAY YOUR POLISH GAME!!!!!!!!!!

Yeeeeeehaw!!!

Brother Ed

 

[Clint Kritzer]

LOL

Is it safe to say that everyone who participates in the other religions forum of the BB develops a pretty thick hide?

... Polish ... Parcheesi ...

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Originally posted by CatholicConvert:

Brother Ed -- Fundamentalist 13 years, Calvinist 12 years -- HOME at Last!!!

So...I take it your at least 25....

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by trying2understand:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by mozier:
And then, the ultimate blasphemy against God: The Mass. Despite all of the words and appearance that it is "biblical," it is NOT! Nothing is more offensive to God than this ultimate idolatry, where Jesus' ultimate sacrifice, once offered, is "reoffered" again and again again, numerous times every day. (Yes, CatholicConvert, I know it is not an official "resacrificing." But again, it is yet another Roman Catholic smokescreen on what is actually happening). Christ was ONCE offered, and never to be done or replayed or redone or reenacted ever again! AMEN!

When I consider all of that time I was in the Roman Catholic Institution and how close I came to becoming a Roman Catholic priest, I shudder to think how I would have been offending God every day in my "offering" of the sacrifice once offered.

Mozier, can you reconcile the above with Revelation 13:8?

"All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world ."

It seems that you wish to limit our Lord's sacrifice to a matter of mere hours on this earth.

It also seems that you prefer a church like the one described in the Book of Daniel; with an altar but no daily sacrifice.

Daniel 11:31
"And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation ."

Daniel 12:11
"And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up , there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days."

Ron

</font>[/QUOTE]quote:Originally posted by mozier:
Ron,

Do not try your romish twisting of scripture on me.

I am wise to it.

mozierThen in your wisdom, perhaps you could answer my question.

How do you reconcile your beliefs with the Scriptures that I cite? (Ron)

T2U
Perhaps the reason your post went unanswered is because the verses that you provided have nothing to do with the objections that Mozier brought forth.
1. He said the mass was blasphemous. The verses you quoted do nothing to refute this.
2. He said that the mass was idolatrous. Again, the verses you use do nothing to refute his accusation. If you could see from his point of view what he is saying, you would compelled to admit that on Biblical grounds only, the Catholic Church commits idolatry.

Furthermore, he may have reacted in the way that he did because of the way that you pulled those Scriptures out of their context, with no regard for their real meaning at all.
Are we that naiive? The Bible says, "There is no God." Yes, indeed it does. Psalm 14:1 "There is no God." The full context however says, "The fool hath said in his heart there is no God." Context is important.

Don't speak blasphemous words.

"It seems that you wish to limit our Lord's sacrifice to a matter of mere hours on this earth."

The sacrifice that Christ made on the cross was a histioric event. It took a matter of hours, was accomplished around 29 A.D., Christ died, was buried, rose again the third day. That is an historic event. You blasphemously suggest that this did not happen, by suggesting it is an ongoing eternal event. This is heresy. Christ once died for sins the just for the unjust that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the Spirit. Do you deny this??

It also seems that you prefer a church like the one described in the Book of Daniel; with an altar but no daily sacrifice.

Another Catholic blasphemy. By this statement you show your unbelief in the death of Christ for the sins of the world. Did not Christ die for our sins?
When He did the Old Testament sacrifices ceased. Any further sacrifice after that would be an abomination to Christ. "The sacrifice of bulls and goats could never take away sins." Only the blood of Christ can wash away your sin. His blood was already sacrificed: ONE TIME FOR ALL!

Next time you decide to use Scripture, T2U, you ought to know what your talking about first. Please check the context.
DHK

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by trying2understand:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by mozier:
And then, the ultimate blasphemy against God: The Mass. Despite all of the words and appearance that it is "biblical," it is NOT! Nothing is more offensive to God than this ultimate idolatry, where Jesus' ultimate sacrifice, once offered, is "reoffered" again and again again, numerous times every day. (Yes, CatholicConvert, I know it is not an official "resacrificing." But again, it is yet another Roman Catholic smokescreen on what is actually happening). Christ was ONCE offered, and never to be done or replayed or redone or reenacted ever again! AMEN!

When I consider all of that time I was in the Roman Catholic Institution and how close I came to becoming a Roman Catholic priest, I shudder to think how I would have been offending God every day in my "offering" of the sacrifice once offered.

Mozier, can you reconcile the above with Revelation 13:8?

"All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world ."

It seems that you wish to limit our Lord's sacrifice to a matter of mere hours on this earth.

It also seems that you prefer a church like the one described in the Book of Daniel; with an altar but no daily sacrifice.

Daniel 11:31
"And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation ."

Daniel 12:11
"And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up , there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days."

Ron

</font>[/QUOTE]quote:Originally posted by mozier:
Ron,

Do not try your romish twisting of scripture on me.

I am wise to it.

mozierThen in your wisdom, perhaps you could answer my question.

How do you reconcile your beliefs with the Scriptures that I cite? (Ron)

T2U
Perhaps the reason your post went unanswered is because the verses that you provided have nothing to do with the objections that Mozier brought forth.
1. He said the mass was blasphemous. The verses you quoted do nothing to refute this.
2. He said that the mass was idolatrous. Again, the verses you use do nothing to refute his accusation. If you could see from his point of view what he is saying, you would compelled to admit that on Biblical grounds only, the Catholic Church commits idolatry.

Furthermore, he may have reacted in the way that he did because of the way that you pulled those Scriptures out of their context, with no regard for their real meaning at all.
Are we that naiive? The Bible says, "There is no God." Yes, indeed it does. Psalm 14:1 "There is no God." The full context however says, "The fool hath said in his heart there is no God." Context is important.

Don't speak blasphemous words.

"It seems that you wish to limit our Lord's sacrifice to a matter of mere hours on this earth."

The sacrifice that Christ made on the cross was a histioric event. It took a matter of hours, was accomplished around 29 A.D., Christ died, was buried, rose again the third day. That is an historic event. You blasphemously suggest that this did not happen, by suggesting it is an ongoing eternal event. This is heresy. Christ once died for sins the just for the unjust that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the Spirit. Do you deny this??

It also seems that you prefer a church like the one described in the Book of Daniel; with an altar but no daily sacrifice.

Another Catholic blasphemy. The inference is of course that you (Catholics) do need an altar with a daily sacrifice. By this statement you show your unbelief in the death of Christ for the sins of the world. Did not Christ die for our sins?
When He did the Old Testament sacrifices ceased. Any further sacrifice after that would be an abomination to Christ. "The sacrifice of bulls and goats could never take away sins." Only the blood of Christ can wash away your sin. His blood was already sacrificed: ONE TIME FOR ALL!

Next time you decide to use Scripture, T2U, you ought to know what your talking about first. Please check the context.
DHK</font>[/QUOTE]

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by DHK:
Don't speak blasphemous words.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />"It seems that you wish to limit our Lord's sacrifice to a matter of mere hours on this earth."

The sacrifice that Christ made on the cross was a histioric event. It took a matter of hours, was accomplished around 29 A.D., Christ died, was buried, rose again the third day. That is an historic event. You blasphemously suggest that this did not happen, by suggesting it is an ongoing eternal event. This is heresy. Christ once died for sins the just for the unjust that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the Spirit. Do you deny this?? </font>[/QUOTE]Your logic escapes me.

How does a belief that Jesus continues to offer Himself to the Father deny the historical reality of the crucifixion?

You seem to have a very limited view of God. Do you believe that time exists for God as it exists for you and me?

Could you please reconcile your beliefs with the slain Lamb in the Book of Revelation?

Ron

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by trying2understand:

Your logic escapes me.

How does a belief that Jesus continues to offer Himself to the Father deny the historical reality of the crucifixion?

You seem to have a very limited view of God. Do you believe that time exists for God as it exists for you and me?

Could you please reconcile your beliefs with the slain Lamb in the Book of Revelation?

1Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

What is the teaching here? Christ once suffered for sins. He one time in history suffered for sins. It was a one time act, never to be repeated again. He, dying on the cross, said, "It is finished" (John 19:30). That happened about 2000 years ago. At that time the work of salvation was complete. There is nothing that man could add to it. It was done, finished. He died in that point of time in history. He does not continue to die for our sins. It is not a continual sacrifice. That is a blasphemous heresy. The SDA's teach that Christ continues to make an atonement for our sins. Heresy! He has already made an atonement for our sins--2000 years ago. What is so difficult about this concept.

It is God that created time. It is God that created the universe. It is God that created Adam and Eve. God created the earth to rotate upon its axis, and revolve around the sun. He said "And the evening and the morning were the first day...And the evening and the morning were the second day...And the evening and the morning were the third day," etc. God created time. God created 24 hour days.

Before you go philosophizing too much about no time in eternity, consider this. John was transported into Heaven. There he beheld many wondrous things. The glory of God was the light of Heaven. There is no sun there. Please explain: without the reference of the sun, sundial, or any human reference point, how John could have made this statement in Heaven (if time is simply man-made):

Rev. 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

There is time in Heaven. God is the creator of it. There is one Christ; one Lamb; one Lion; one King!
He is Lord over all! His name is Jesus Christ. He presently sits at the right of the throne of God ever making intercession for us. Even now he bears in his body the nail prints from the cross. Christ is in Heaven with the body that was already sacrificed 2000 years ago. It will never be sacrificed again. Even to "re-represent" it is wrong. We ought to remember it, proclaim it, teach it. The gospel: that Jesus Christ died, was buried, and rose again the third day, is a completed historical event that took place 2000 years ago. It is irrefutable in history.
DHK