How do Catholics hear the Gospel?

[trying2understand]

DHK, I happened to talk with a friend of mine who is a Baptist last night. We talked a little about this very topic. She understood my point and even agreed with it.

Her final comment was, "Baptists tend to be Dick and Jane when it comes to theology".

Ron

[ October 10, 2002, 06:08 PM: Message edited by: trying2understand ]

 

[jasonW*]

Originally posted by trying2understand:
DHK, I happened to talk with a friend of mine who is a Baptist last night. We talked a little about this very topic. She understood my point and even agreed with it.

Her final comment was, "Baptists tend to be Dick and Jane when it comes to theology".

Ron

Ron,

I am curious. How do you justify your belief that Jesus is in a perptetual state of sacrifice for us biblically? I know you 'have' to believe this to be catholic, but how can you justify this to yourself from the bible. DHK has done a wonderful job outlining why the sacrifice is completed. I have never heard any convincing argument to the contrary from any sect of christianity...all such attempts have fallen short when tested against the bible. So, how do you do it?

jason

 

[CatholicConvert]

Jason --

This is a fair question. I actually came to this when I was still Presbyterian. I sort of put 2 + 2 together like this:

God is timeless. There is no sense of time with Him, therefore He sees everything as if it exists right now, even that which in chronological time has come and gone.

Therefore, in timeless eternity, the Sacrifice of Christ is ever present to Him because He sees all.

Beyond that, I simply can not go. I do think this is a mystery which Scripture addresses when it does speak of the Lamb "slain BEFORE the foundation of the world".

Another thing to consider might be how Christ could be seen by John as both Lamb and Lion at the same time. I think this goes to the core of Protestant thinking that things in the Christian Faith must be "either/or", whereas the Orthodox and Catholic view is "both/and". If God is Trinity, can Christ be limited to a single manifestation as if bound by time?

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

 

[jasonW*]

Originally posted by CatholicConvert:
Jason --

This is a fair question. I actually came to this when I was still Presbyterian. I sort of put 2 + 2 together like this:

God is timeless. There is no sense of time with Him, therefore He sees everything as if it exists right now, even that which in chronological time has come and gone.

Therefore, in timeless eternity, the Sacrifice of Christ is ever present to Him because He sees all.

But, using this as the basis for a continual sacrifice leaves open the door to mans eternal rebellion, your continual sin, my continual denial. The sacrifice of Christ is not ever present in terms of continual, it is ever present in terms of it is God's nature. There is a big difference in this(think about it).

Beyond that, I simply can not go. I do think this is a mystery which Scripture addresses when it does speak of the Lamb "slain BEFORE the foundation of the world".

This goes against other scripture saying it is finished. We both know the bible can't contradict itself so which is it?

Another thing to consider might be how Christ could be seen by John as both Lamb and Lion at the same time. I think this goes to the core of Protestant thinking that things in the Christian Faith must be "either/or", whereas the Orthodox and Catholic view is "both/and". If God is Trinity, can Christ be limited to a single manifestation as if bound by time?

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

'Both/and' is not really an acceptable position to have on this. You cannot have it both ways. Either Christ died once for all sin or he did not. Just as my car is red or it is not. It is a fact.

Re: Lion and Lamb at the same time.

What if I said this: "He was a sheepish boy; small, weak and tired. Yet, his eyes burned with passion and desire for things not yet achieved, places not yet visited and conquests of enemies not yet encountered."

This boy has a dual nature. Does that mean anything significant? No, it does not. How does this pertain to a 'continual sacrifice'? It does not, just as the dual nature of Christ in Johns vision does not.

jason

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by trying2understand:
DHK, I happened to talk with a friend of mine who is a Baptist last night. We talked a little about this very topic. She understood my point and even agreed with it.

Her final comment was, "Baptists tend to be Dick and Jane when it comes to theology".

Ron

I am not Dick, nor am I Jane. Neither have you or Ed been able to justify your belief that Jesus is in a perptetual state of sacrifice for us from the Bible. Why do you continually avoid difficult questions?

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by DHK:
Neither have you or Ed been able to justify your belief that Jesus is in a perptetual state of sacrifice for us from the Bible. Why do you continually avoid difficult questions?

Who said "perpetual state of sacrifice"?

What questions? You generally lecture. You rarely ask questions.

Ron

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by trying2understand:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DHK:
Neither have you or Ed been able to justify your belief that Jesus is in a perptetual state of sacrifice for us from the Bible. Why do you continually avoid difficult questions?

Who said "perpetual state of sacrifice"?

What questions? You generally lecture. You rarely ask questions.

Ron</font>[/QUOTE]Why do I always seem to be repeating myself? Can you justify your belief that Jesus is in a perpetual state of sacrifice for us from the Bible?

You said: "Who said 'perpetual state of sacrifice'?"

Here then is your quote:

"Your logic escapes me.
How does a belief that Jesus continues to offer Himself to the Father deny the historical reality of the crucifixion?"

"Jesus continues to offer Himself to the Father," is another way of saying, "He is in a perpetual state of sacrifice." You said the words. It is your belief. Why are you trying to deny it now?

Again, I ask you, Can you justify your belief (Biblically) that Jesus is in a perpetual state of sacrifice, or to put it in your very own words, "that He continues to offer Himself to the Father?"
DHK

 

[GraceSaves]

DHK,

They do not mean the same thing. It's the re-offering of the same sacrifice, not a perpetual sacrifice. Your equaition is and always will be faulty. That is why your question is never asnwered; it's not a Catholic belief. Keep imposing it all you like; it'll never make your equation of a continual offering the same thing as a continual sacrifice.

May God bless you,

Grant

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by DHK:
"Jesus continues to offer Himself to the Father," is another way of saying, "He is in a perpetual state of sacrifice." You said the words. It is your belief. Why are you trying to deny it now?

Again, I ask you, Can you justify your belief (Biblically) that Jesus is in a perpetual state of sacrifice, or to put it in your very own words, "that He continues to offer Himself to the Father?"DHK

DHK, this ploy is so pathetic.

First you quote me.

Then you deliberately change the words.

Then you tell me that your words are my belief.

Then you want me to defend your admitted and deliberate misrepresentation of my words.

Very sad and very weak, DHK.

 

[CatholicConvert]

I guess that being the new Catholic kid on the block, I don't understand the difference between "perpetual state of sacrifice" and "a continual sacrifice" or a "continually present sacrifice".

Hmmmmmm....this is worth some mediatation, for I think there is a gem of thought here buried.

The act in time is over. That much we agree upon. For argument's sake, suppose that Jesus really is made present as we say He is.

What are we then doing IF He really IS present? What significance does this act have and what does it accomplish?

Hmmmmmm........

Okay...both the Orthodox and the RC believe this to be true, so this is distinctly NOT just an RC belief.

If the sacrifice is still over, and we do not have access to it, then how do we obtain organic unity with Christ? That's the key - unity with Him which produces His life in us. Mere "faith alone" does not do this.

Does His Body and Blood remain a perpetual sacrifice ontologically?

Thoughts....always the thoughts.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by CatholicConvert:
I guess that being the new Catholic kid on the block, I don't understand the difference between "perpetual state of sacrifice" and "a continual sacrifice" or a "continually present sacrifice".

Let me offer an analogy.

Suppose that you and your wife are moving into your dream retirement ocean front home. Your wife wants noting more than to wake up on the first morning in your dream home and look out the bedroom window and watch the sunrise from bed.

On the day that you move in, a huge storm comes off the ocean and piles a 30 foot high pile of trash on the beach, blocking the view of the horizon from your bedroom window.

At the same time you are invited by a friend to fly to the other side of the world to see a comet pass over head as it does once every 300 hundred years. You have looked forward to this event for the past twenty years and it is your passion.

You leave the house after dinner of move in day, and your wife goes to bed depressed knowing that she will not see the sunrise from her bed on the first morning in her new home.

Instead of going to see the comet, you quietly work through the night removing the trash from the beach. In the morning, you go into the house, enter the bedroom and draw open the drapes at exactly sunrise.

On seeing what you have done for her, and knowing what you sacrificed for her, your wife has no doubt just how much you care for her.

From that day forward, for the rest of your life, every morning you rise with the sun and draw open the drapes so that your wife can view the sunrise... and be represented with the one time sacrifice that you made for her. Each time she is again filled with a sense of how much you care for her.

Ron

 

[WPutnam]

Originally posted by Dualhunter:
The thief on the cross didn't go through a long ardous process, he trust in Christ alone and Jesus promised him salvation.

And neither did the Holy Innocents, slaughtered by Herod in his attempt to murder the infant Jesus, nor countless catechumens in Pagan Rome, under instruction in the faith, who were martyred before they were baptized.

Yet the Church considered them as saints. Do you know why? Do you recall the doctrines and beliefs in this matter that the Church has always taught?

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+

Christus Vincit! Christus Regnat! Christus Imperat!

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by trying2understand:

Very sad and very weak, DHK.

What is sad T2U is your deliberate refusal to answer a straightforwawrd question that has been asked how many times now? Perhaps half a dozen? Can you justify, using the Bible, your belief that Christ "continues to offer himself to the father." I don't want your fairy-tales; give me Scripture.
DHK

[ October 15, 2002, 01:05 AM: Message edited by: DHK ]

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by DHK:
What is sad T2U is your deliberate refusal to answer a straightforwawrd question that has been asked how many times now? Perhaps half a dozen? Can you justify, using the Bible, your belief that Christ "continues to offer himself to the father." I don't want your fairy-tales; give me Scripture.
DHK

Let's start with Malachi 1:11

"For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."

What is the "pure offering" being offered "from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same"?

Ron

 

[DHK]

Let's start with Malachi 1:11

"For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."

What is the "pure offering" being offered "from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same"?

Let's start with the context of the chapter first. The Lord is making charges against His people, Israel, and they are replying with denials. Verses 6 to 14 describes the sacrilege of the priests, how they have failed to honor the name of Jehovah, and reverence Him. They have brought to God sacrifices which have already been defiled--the lame and the blind. They would not even bring such sacrifices to their governor, Malachi says. Why do they offer them to God. So the Lord tells them in verse 10 that He will shut the door on their sacrifices. They will no longer be able to offer them at all.
Verse 11 is then prophetic. I believe it holds a two-fold prophecy as many prophecies do. One which was partially fulfilled already at the cross, and the other will ultimately be fulfilled in the Millennial Kingdom yet to come. The Lord's name shall be made great among the Gentiles all over the world. When Christ died on the cross, that is exactly what happened. The disciples were given the Great Commission: "Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature." All over this world the gospel has been preached. God's name has been made among the Gentiles. You can't even look at a historical date in secular history and not be reminded of the Lord's birth or death (B.C. or A.D.). Here is what Adam Clark said about this verse:

"From the rising of the sun"— The total abolition of the Mosaic sacrifices, and the establishment of a spiritual worship over the whole earth, is here foretold. The incense of praise, and the pure offering of the Lamb without spot, and through him a holy, loving heart, shall be presented everywhere among the Gentiles; and the Jews and their mock offerings shall be rejected.

The ultimate fulfillment of this verse will be when Christ comes again to set up His Kingdom. Then all the world, "from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same" shall worship Him.
The pure offering is Jesus Christ Himself who was offered up for our sins.
The New Testament also speaks of other sacrifices:
"Present your bodies a living sacrifice holy and acceptable unto God" (Rom.12:1)
In no way does the New Testament even intimate that there will ever be any more blood sacrifices.
There may be thank offerings and praise offerings, but not blood sacrifices. Christ was once offered for the sins of many.
DHK

 

[trying2understand]

Posted by trying2understand:
Let's start with Malachi 1:11

"For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."

What is the "pure offering" being offered "from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same"?

Posted by DHK:
The ultimate fulfillment of this verse will be when Christ comes again to set up His Kingdom. Then all the world, "from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same" shall worship Him.
The pure offering is Jesus Christ Himself who was offered up for our sins.

DHK

DHK, yes, Jesus is the pure offering.

Why do you abridge the verse? To make it fit your theology?

The verse says, "...and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering..."

Not just "worshiping" from the rising of the sun until the going down of the same, but also a "pure offering". The verse is all one sentence. Why must you rip the "pure offering" out of the sentence? Is it because it doesn't fit your preconceived ideas?

Also how does "from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same" compare with your broken into stages by fits and starts description?

[ October 16, 2002, 02:17 PM: Message edited by: trying2understand ]

 

[WPutnam]

Originally posted by trying2understand:
DHK, yes, Jesus is the pure offering.

Why do you abridge the verse? To make it fit your theology?

The verse says, "...and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering..."

Not just "worshiping" from the rising of the sun until the going down of the same, but also a "pure offering". The verse is all one sentence. Why must you rip the "pure offering" out of the sentence? Is it because it doesn't fit your preconceived ideas?

Also how does "from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same" compare with your broken into stages by fits and starts description?

I know where you are going, trying2understand, so I thought I would take great delight in specifying exactly in what form this kind of worship has taken in prophasy:

THE HOLY SACRIFICE OF THE MASS!

At any given hour, a Mass is being said, incense is being burned, and the Eucharist has been made available for the faithful!

Good job sir!

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+

"Gloria in excelsis Deo"
Et in terra pax homininus bone
voluntatis
Laudamus te
Benedicimus te
Adoramus te
Glorificamus te,
Gratias agimus tibi propter magnum gloriam tuum.
Domine Deus, Rex Coelestis,
Deus Pater omnipotens Domine Fili unigenite
Jesu Christe Domine Deus
Agnus Dei Filius Patris
Qui tollis peccata mundi miserere nobis.
Qui tollis peccata mundi, suscipe deprecationem nostram.
Qui sedes ad dexteramPatris, miserere nobis.
Quoniam tu solus Sanctus,
Tu solus Dominus Tu solus Altissimus Jesu Christe.
Cum Sancto Spiritu in gloria Dei Patris
Amen.

Ambrosian Gloria

http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/louvre/1049/AveMaria/

Gregorian Chant - God's music!

[ October 16, 2002, 03:28 PM: Message edited by: WPutnam ]

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by WPutnam:
I know where you are going, trying2understand, so I thought I would take great delight in specifying exactly in what form this kind of worship has taken in prophasy:

THE HOLY SACRIFICE OF THE MASS!

At any given hour, a Mass is being said, incense is being burned, and the Eucharist has been made available for the faithful!

Good job sir!

"For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."

Oh, but we are just getting started.

Consider this...

"in every place" (plural)

"a pure offering" (singular)

In other words, a singular offering offered in every (multiple) place.

How does this fit with the concept of the "offering" being a mere three hours, in a specific geographic location, two thousand years ago? DHK's "historic event" perspective.

Ron

 

[WPutnam]

Originally posted by trying2understand:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by WPutnam:
I know where you are going, trying2understand, so I thought I would take great delight in specifying exactly in what form this kind of worship has taken in prophasy:

THE HOLY SACRIFICE OF THE MASS!

At any given hour, a Mass is being said, incense is being burned, and the Eucharist has been made available for the faithful!

Good job sir!

"For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."

Oh, but we are just getting started.

Consider this...

"in every place" (plural)

"a pure offering" (singular)

In other words, a singular offering offered in every (multiple) place.

How does this fit with the concept of the "offering" being a mere three hours, in a specific geographic location, two thousand years ago? DHK's "historic event" perspective.

Ron

</font>[/QUOTE]And you make your point even stronger, point ever more to...........

THE HOLY SACRIFICE OF THE MASS!

Keep it up, sir!

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+

Pillar and Foundation of Truth, the Church. (1 Tim 3:15)

 

[Johnv]

9 pages, squire... why is this thread still open?