How Do RC's Defend Things Like This?

[Thinkingstuff]

Well, I've been a believer for 37 years and I'm still learning everyday. There are many things I discover I had been ignorant of. I just recently learned that the tithe is not for the NT church, I had always been told it was and didn't question it or study the issue, that is being ignorant of something. Doesn't make me lost.

I'm with you. I'm constantly learning new things about the faith handed down by the Apostles. I've read the bible many times and learning new things all the time. Right now I'm re-reading 1 and 2nd Corinthians for my devotions and still learning new things. It helps that I have an Archeologist friend who recently returned from a dig there to write book who also provides me some new insight.

 

[Bro. James]

Well, I've been a believer for 37 years and I'm still learning everyday. There are many things I discover I had been ignorant of. I just recently learned that the tithe is not for the NT church, I had always been told it was and didn't question it or study the issue, that is being ignorant of something. Doesn't make me lost.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ignorance of true salvation corrupts any other learning of God and service in the kingdom. The things of God are spiritually discerned. If one is spiritually dead in trespasses and sin, one cannot learn of Him. One must be born again from above. See the account of Jesus and Nicodemus in the front of John Chapter 3. Nicodemus was a Master(teacher, rabbi) of Israel; yet he was not born again. He had no clue as to what Jesus meant.

Many today have no clue. The plan of salvation has not changed. Salvation is of The Lord. Jesus paid it all.

Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Bro. James

 

[Zenas]

For those who seem confused about this monstrance, albeit their confusion is reflected here as revulsion, it would be a good idea to click on the link provided by Baptist4life in Post No. 1 and read the explanation. It is an excellent account of the scriptural basis for showing Our Lady standing behind the arc. You may not agree with the implications of the scriptural references but you will have a better understanding of the artistic imagery.

 

[Bro. James]

There is a bizarre resemblance to Isis and Ra blended with symbols from the old testament regarding the ark of the covenant.

Where is the golden calf? These are the visual trappings of the Synogogue of Satan. Now what?

Real New Testament Churches do not have such idolatry.

Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Bro. James

 

[Yeshua1]

I can see how one unfamiliar with Catholic faith can misconstrue the meaning. As far as Catholics who may misconstrue it; shame on them. They have a responsibility to know their faith and to live accordingly. In my way of thinking that would be like a Baptist church member who didn't read their bible daily or study it regularly while committing themselves in daily prayer. In both categories (Catholic and Baptist)I would encourage those type of people to take a serious inventory of their spiritual lives.

isn't mary in the RCC though on the mercy seat, as sheintervenes for sinners thru the "Holy Rosary", and that she intetercedes for them before God, as she is the "Mother of God" and co redemptix in salvation though?

 

[Zenas]

isn't mary in the RCC though on the mercy seat, as sheintervenes for sinners thru the "Holy Rosary", and that she intetercedes for them before God, as she is the "Mother of God" and co redemptix in salvation though?

Actually no, Mary is not on the mercy seat, either in this depiction of her or in Catholic theology.

Mary does intervene for sinners, just as we would pray for a loved one who has not come to Christ.

Mary is the Theokotos (Mother of God or, more literally "God bearer").

Mary is regarded in a metaphysical way as the co-redemptrix. This is a trite expression but it does a pretty good job of describing Mary's role:

Know Mary, know Jesus. No Mary, no Jesus.

It is true that in scripture the ark is portrayed as a type of Mary. I have a list of those scripture passages on another computer that I don't have access to right now. However, I would suggest you compare the phraseology in 2 Samuel 6:9-16 with that in Luke 1:39-44. Also note the relationship of Revelation 11:19 to Revelation 12:1.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

isn't mary in the RCC though on the mercy seat, as sheintervenes for sinners thru the "Holy Rosary", and that she intetercedes for them before God, as she is the "Mother of God" and co redemptix in salvation though?

I have no idea what "sheintervenes" means. Unless, you mean two words one being "she" and the other "intervenes". Well, the Apostle Paul instructs us in 1 Timothy 2:1 to intervene for other people in prayer

I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people

and the book of Revelation reveals that in heaven

the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones. - Rev 5:8

and Rev 8:3-4 says

Another angel came and stood at the altar,* holding a gold censer. He was given a great quantity of incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the holy ones, on the gold altar that was before the throne.c 4The smoke of the incense along with the prayers of the holy ones went up before God from the hand of the angel.

all seems to indicate that not only do we intercede for each other hear on earth but those in heaven also intercede for us. So why wouldn't Mary pray to God for us? Or Paul or Peter or John or Matthew etc...?

 

[Yeshua1]

I have no idea what "sheintervenes" means. Unless, you mean two words one being "she" and the other "intervenes". Well, the Apostle Paul instructs us in 1 Timothy 2:1 to intervene for other people in prayer and the book of Revelation reveals that in heaven and Rev 8:3-4 says all seems to indicate that not only do we intercede for each other hear on earth but those in heaven also intercede for us. So why wouldn't Mary pray to God for us? Or Paul or Peter or John or Matthew etc...?

jesus is the ONLY mediator between God and man, he is the High priest, NOT mary nor the Apostles, as ALL they do is worship and praise before His throne!

i am JUST as spiritual as mary and the Apsotles were, as ALL are saved same way, by same Grace, and are ALL priests to God!

To have any prayetrs offerred to mary, any "hail mary" is blashemous, and NOT per God!

 

[Thinkingstuff]

jesus is the ONLY mediator between God and man, he is the High priest, NOT mary nor the Apostles, as ALL they do is worship and praise before His throne!

Ok let me get this straight. By your statement you are saying the bible is lying when it says:

I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people - 1 Tim 2:1

So, since Jesus is the only mediator and our high priest, according to you, we are forbidden to do what Paul instructs Timothy to instruct his church? If you have mediated and intervened for anyone in prayer you have sinned against God. And According to you throw out the book of Timothy because it is teaching us to sin when it request that we intervene for anyone in prayer. Wow, really! I think I have more respects for the scriptures than you do if this is what you believe.

i am JUST as spiritual as mary and the Apsotles were, as ALL are saved same way, by same Grace, and are ALL priests to God!

Wait a minute didn't you just say?

ONLY ... High priest, NOT mary nor the Apostles

Yet you claim we are all priest? You are contradicting yourself. However, I agree with you on these specific points 1) We are all saved in the same way. and 2) all Christians are priest to God. I can't speak to your spirituality since I really don't know you but you may or may not be as Spiritual as Mary and the Apostles however, I doubt it since you believe only Jesus can intercede for other people when the scriptures clearly teaches us different.

To have any prayetrs offerred to mary, any "hail mary" is blashemous, and NOT per God!

What's a prayters? Do you mean prayers? And your contention is saying Hail Mary is Blasphemous well that means that the Angel Gabriel sinned when the scripture reports

26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,

27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.

28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

Did God throw Gabriel out of heaven with the devil when this happened? I mean he was Blasphemous! How dare he say that! Maybe Mary's cousin Elizabeth Blasphemed when she said

And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the baby leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit, 42 and she exclaimed with a loud cry, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! 43 And why is this granted to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

But how could Elizabeth have Blasphemed if she was filled with the Holy Spirit? Yet you claim she did! Why didn't God kill her on the spot after all God can't abide sin and she sinned while filled with the Holy Spirit? I think for you a bible study is recommended. Also can you show me the scripture that says

ALL they do is worship and praise before His throne

When in fact I've shown you scripture that shows they present the payers like incense before God. And I'm certain there are other things that people do in heaven. Here are some of the things other than worshiping God that people are doing in Heaven

Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and seated on the thrones were twenty-four elders, clothed in white garments, with golden crowns on their heads.

Looks like these are sitting on thrones wearing golden crowns.

And one of the elders said to me, “Weep no more; behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has conquered, so that he can open the scroll and its seven seals.”

Looks like this Elder is having a discussion with John (who hasn't died as yet but was translated to heaven in his vision)

the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

Here they are holding the prayers of the saints

I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. 10 They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

here there are men crying out to God for justice.

Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer,

Here they are told to rest. Clearly there is a lot of worshiping in heaven but according to scripture that isn't all they do.

 

[Walter]

Ok let me get this straight. By your statement you are saying the bible is lying when it says: So, since Jesus is the only mediator and our high priest, according to you, we are forbidden to do what Paul instructs Timothy to instruct his church? If you have mediated and intervened for anyone in prayer you have sinned against God. And According to you throw out the book of Timothy because it is teaching us to sin when it request that we intervene for anyone in prayer. Wow, really! I think I have more respects for the scriptures than you do if this is what you believe.

Wait a minute didn't you just say? Yet you claim we are all priest? You are contradicting yourself. However, I agree with you on these specific points 1) We are all saved in the same way. and 2) all Christians are priest to God. I can't speak to your spirituality since I really don't know you but you may or may not be as Spiritual as Mary and the Apostles however, I doubt it since you believe only Jesus can intercede for other people when the scriptures clearly teaches us different.


What's a prayters? Do you mean prayers? And your contention is saying Hail Mary is Blasphemous well that means that the Angel Gabriel sinned when the scripture reports Did God throw Gabriel out of heaven with the devil when this happened? I mean he was Blasphemous! How dare he say that! Maybe Mary's cousin Elizabeth Blasphemed when she said But how could Elizabeth have Blasphemed if she was filled with the Holy Spirit? Yet you claim she did! Why didn't God kill her on the spot after all God can't abide sin and she sinned while filled with the Holy Spirit? I think for you a bible study is recommended. Also can you show me the scripture that says When in fact I've shown you scripture that shows they present the payers like incense before God. And I'm certain there are other things that people do in heaven. Here are some of the things other than worshiping God that people are doing in Heaven Looks like these are sitting on thrones wearing golden crowns. Looks like this Elder is having a discussion with John (who hasn't died as yet but was translated to heaven in his vision) Here they are holding the prayers of the saints here there are men crying out to God for justice. Here they are told to rest. Clearly there is a lot of worshiping in heaven but according to scripture that isn't all they do.

:applause::applause:

 

[Yeshua1]

Ok let me get this straight. By your statement you are saying the bible is lying when it says: So, since Jesus is the only mediator and our high priest, according to you, we are forbidden to do what Paul instructs Timothy to instruct his church? If you have mediated and intervened for anyone in prayer you have sinned against God. And According to you throw out the book of Timothy because it is teaching us to sin when it request that we intervene for anyone in prayer. Wow, really! I think I have more respects for the scriptures than you do if this is what you believe.

Wait a minute didn't you just say? Yet you claim we are all priest? You are contradicting yourself. However, I agree with you on these specific points 1) We are all saved in the same way. and 2) all Christians are priest to God. I can't speak to your spirituality since I really don't know you but you may or may not be as Spiritual as Mary and the Apostles however, I doubt it since you believe only Jesus can intercede for other people when the scriptures clearly teaches us different.


What's a prayters? Do you mean prayers? And your contention is saying Hail Mary is Blasphemous well that means that the Angel Gabriel sinned when the scripture reports Did God throw Gabriel out of heaven with the devil when this happened? I mean he was Blasphemous! How dare he say that! Maybe Mary's cousin Elizabeth Blasphemed when she said But how could Elizabeth have Blasphemed if she was filled with the Holy Spirit? Yet you claim she did! Why didn't God kill her on the spot after all God can't abide sin and she sinned while filled with the Holy Spirit? I think for you a bible study is recommended. Also can you show me the scripture that says When in fact I've shown you scripture that shows they present the payers like incense before God. And I'm certain there are other things that people do in heaven. Here are some of the things other than worshiping God that people are doing in Heaven Looks like these are sitting on thrones wearing golden crowns. Looks like this Elder is having a discussion with John (who hasn't died as yet but was translated to heaven in his vision) Here they are holding the prayers of the saints here there are men crying out to God for justice. Here they are told to rest. Clearly there is a lot of worshiping in heaven but according to scripture that isn't all they do.

Difference between prayers that we make to God on behalf of others while her on earth, and mary and the Apostles doing that when in Heaven!

NO verses support the catholic notion that then can intervene and intercede between us and God, as Jesus Himself does all that in heaven!

ONLY role Mary has was to bear the Son of God, as she did not bear all the trinity in her!

she was a sinner like me and you, Jesus had to die for her sins, and she is doing same as all departed, worshipping and serving the Lord God!

the ONLY part of salvation she had was to bear jesus, period, and has no ongoing business!

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Difference between prayers that we make to God on behalf of others while her on earth, and mary and the Apostles doing that when in Heaven!

So, now your argument is location determines whether one prays or not? Ie. If I pray for you here in the US I'm considered to be praying for you but if I pray for you in England I'm acting like God? Is that really your contention? It is clear from the scriptures that people pray for people in heaven. So whether you are on earth or in heaven you still have the ability to pray for others.

NO verses support the catholic notion that then can intervene and intercede between us and God, as Jesus Himself does all that in heaven!

Do you really know what you are saying? Catholics believe People can and do intercede for other people all the time and I presented you scripture where Paul instructs us to intercede for people. Clear as day. If you pray for someone on their behalf you intercede for that person. I think you are confused by two different things there is Christ's role which only he can fulfill at the right hand of God. But that is different than the role you and I play when we make requests and beseech God on behalf of others.

ONLY role Mary has was to bear the Son of God, as she did not bear all the trinity in her!

No one said she gave Birth to the entire personage of the Trinity! You made that up. Certainly the Catholics do not believe that. Catholics believe that Mary gave birth to Jesus Christ who is God. They don't say she gave birth to the Father or the Holy Spirit. However, Jesus whom she did give birth to is homoosious with the Father and the Holy Spirit. I think that comprehension is a bit beyond you by the way you make up stuff. Also no one ever has just one role. All humans are called to relationship with God which is eternal. God didn't just discard Mary after giving birth to Jesus as you seem to claim but maintained that relationship with her which includes her praying to God. However, it is important to note the Jesus was as much God as he was at his incarnation. To say he was less than God at his incarnation is Heresy.

she was a sinner like me and you, Jesus had to die for her sins, and she is doing same as all departed, worshipping and serving the Lord God!

Mary certainly needed salvation equally as you or I. And Mary certainly worships the Lord in Heaven. But you still haven't shown me the scripture verse which says all that the saints in heaven do is worship. I've shown you verses where saints are doing other things than worshiping God in heaven. I think you are mistaken if you believe all heaven is; is one big eternal tent revival. Though there is a lot of worship going on in heaven that doesn't exclude other activities people may do in heaven.

the ONLY part of salvation she had was to bear jesus, period, and has no ongoing business!

Therefore your model of God is that he impregnated Mary by the Holy Spirit and once she gave birth, God discarded her. That type of thinking can lead to all sorts of mistreatment of women. However, the scriptures are clear on this point. Mary not only gave birth to Jesus and was done. Nope go back to your bible. Mary raised Jesus as well. She changed his diapers, trained him up and he obeyed her.

And he went down with them and came to Nazareth and was submissive to them. And his mother treasured up all these things in her heart.
52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and in stature[h] and in favor with God and man.

And still more! Did you not read the scriptures that Mary asked Jesus to help at the Wedding at Cana where Jesus turned water to wine which scriptures say

On the third day there was a wedding at Cana in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there. 2 Jesus also was invited to the wedding with his disciples. 3 When the wine ran out, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.” 4 And Jesus said to her, “Woman, what does this have to do with me? My hour has not yet come.” 5 His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”...This, the first of his signs, Jesus did at Cana in Galilee, and manifested his glory. And his disciples believed in him.

Or did you not read in scriptures where Mary followed Jesus in his ministry that she was present at the crucifixion where the prophet foresaw her suffering watching her son die?

And Simeon blessed them and said to Mary his mother, “Behold, this child is appointed for the fall and rising of many in Israel, and for a sign that is opposed 35 (and a sword will pierce through your own soul also), so that thoughts from many hearts may be revealed.”

or How Mary was at the upper room during Pentecost when the Holy Spirit settled on the disciples?

And when they had entered, they went up to the upper room, where they were staying, Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot and Judas the son of James. 14 All these with one accord were devoting themselves to prayer, together with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus,

So Mary was involved in Jesus ministry. So we see from scripture of all the people who had a personal relationship with Jesus and was with him throughout his ministry, death, and resurrection and continued among the disciples of Jesus Christ after his ascension it was Mary. Who more than all the other had the closest relationship to Jesus and new him best.

 

[Yeshua1]

So, now your argument is location determines whether one prays or not? Ie. If I pray for you here in the US I'm considered to be praying for you but if I pray for you in England I'm acting like God? Is that really your contention? It is clear from the scriptures that people pray for people in heaven. So whether you are on earth or in heaven you still have the ability to pray for others.

Do you really know what you are saying? Catholics believe People can and do intercede for other people all the time and I presented you scripture where Paul instructs us to intercede for people. Clear as day. If you pray for someone on their behalf you intercede for that person. I think you are confused by two different things there is Christ's role which only he can fulfill at the right hand of God. But that is different than the role you and I play when we make requests and beseech God on behalf of others.

No one said she gave Birth to the entire personage of the Trinity! You made that up. Certainly the Catholics do not believe that. Catholics believe that Mary gave birth to Jesus Christ who is God. They don't say she gave birth to the Father or the Holy Spirit. However, Jesus whom she did give birth to is homoosious with the Father and the Holy Spirit. I think that comprehension is a bit beyond you by the way you make up stuff. Also no one ever has just one role. All humans are called to relationship with God which is eternal. God didn't just discard Mary after giving birth to Jesus as you seem to claim but maintained that relationship with her which includes her praying to God. However, it is important to note the Jesus was as much God as he was at his incarnation. To say he was less than God at his incarnation is Heresy.


Mary certainly needed salvation equally as you or I. And Mary certainly worships the Lord in Heaven. But you still haven't shown me the scripture verse which says all that the saints in heaven do is worship. I've shown you verses where saints are doing other things than worshiping God in heaven. I think you are mistaken if you believe all heaven is; is one big eternal tent revival. Though there is a lot of worship going on in heaven that doesn't exclude other activities people may do in heaven.


Therefore your model of God is that he impregnated Mary by the Holy Spirit and once she gave birth, God discarded her. That type of thinking can lead to all sorts of mistreatment of women. However, the scriptures are clear on this point. Mary not only gave birth to Jesus and was done. Nope go back to your bible. Mary raised Jesus as well. She changed his diapers, trained him up and he obeyed her. And still more! Did you not read the scriptures that Mary asked Jesus to help at the Wedding at Cana where Jesus turned water to wine which scriptures say Or did you not read in scriptures where Mary followed Jesus in his ministry that she was present at the crucifixion where the prophet foresaw her suffering watching her son die? or How Mary was at the upper room during Pentecost when the Holy Spirit settled on the disciples? So Mary was involved in Jesus ministry. So we see from scripture of all the people who had a personal relationship with Jesus and was with him throughout his ministry, death, and resurrection and continued among the disciples of Jesus Christ after his ascension it was Mary. Who more than all the other had the closest relationship to Jesus and new him best.

mary has the SAME relationship to Jesus as I do now, as one who has Him as her Saviour and Lord? She is NOT praying for persons here from heaven, not interceding for them before throne of God, and she has NO closer realtionship to Jesus then His Apsotles, or me !

She was a great lady, but NOT exaulted as the church of Rome sees her as being!

And to pray and chant the Rosery to her is blasphemy! As ONLY Jesus can interecede on our behalf!

 

[DHK]

1. Mary is dead; dead people don't pray.
2. Mary is dead; living people don't pray to the dead.
This is condemned in the Bible under the name of necromancy.
It is practiced in eastern religions where people pray to their ancestors who have died and set out food for them at night so that they will be satisfied and protect their houses. No different than the RCC.

 

[steaver]

So Mary was involved in Jesus ministry. So we see from scripture of all the people who had a personal relationship with Jesus and was with him throughout his ministry, death, and resurrection and continued among the disciples of Jesus Christ after his ascension it was Mary. Who more than all the other had the closest relationship to Jesus and new him best.

Well........she was His earthly mother, is to be expected don't you think?

 

[BobRyan]

Praying to the dead - adoration of the dead - it is a form of worship.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[saturneptune]

Praying to the dead - adoration of the dead - it is a form of worship.

in Christ,

Bob

Since you belong to a cult, why would anyone believe a thing you post. When you come to the conclusion that salvation is of the Lord by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, and nothing else, post again.

 

[BobRyan]

Since you belong to a cult, why would anyone <pointless rant deleted here>

Perhaps you are trying to improve your gift of name-calling -- or maybe you think that the shrinking Baptist numbers over time would be helped to shrink faster if you could just drive more people away.

Either way - I find your logic illusive. Do you have an explanation for it? Is there "a point" to coming to this "other denominations" section of the board and doing what you do?

There was a time when the name-calling all-the-time practices of "some" had not been effective enough at slowing the growth of Baptist denominations such as the Southern Baptists to the point of shrinking. I think they were at one time around 20 Million - but now at 16 million the result is that the Seventh-day Adventist are now larger than the Southern Baptists and the Seventh-day Baptist combined - simply by staying focused on Bible study and not dedicated to the "evangelism through name-calling" practices of some that you find around here every now and then.

I still hold to the hope that that are more objective unbiased faithful bible students among the Baptist here - than you seem to be willing to admit to.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Since you belong to a cult, why would anyone believe a thing you post. When you come to the conclusion that salvation is of the Lord by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, and nothing else, post again.

In this forum Bob has just as much right as you do to post.

 

[BobRyan]

1. Mary is dead; dead people don't pray.
2. Mary is dead; living people don't pray to the dead.
This is condemned in the Bible under the name of necromancy.
It is practiced in eastern religions where people pray to their ancestors who have died and set out food for them at night so that they will be satisfied and protect their houses. No different than the RCC.

Isaiah 8:19-20 comes to mind.

in Christ,

Bob