How Do RC's Defend Things Like This?

[BobRyan]

In this forum Bob has just as much right as you do to post.

indeed he does and he can use whatever method or tactic he thinks will work best.

All have free will. If there are some who are firmly dedicated to evangelism-through-name-calling, I certainly am not trying to deprive them of their right to pursue such a course all they wish. It was all the rage in the dark ages. Millions fell for it.

However I for one am not inclined to believe that all Baptist on this forum are willing to go down that road.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Matt Black]

1. Mary is dead; dead people don't pray.
2. Mary is dead; living people don't pray to the dead.

Are Abraham, Isaac and Jacob dead or alive? And in what way?

 

[BobRyan]

Are Abraham, Isaac and Jacob dead or alive? And in what way?

Christ brings this point up in Matt 22 quoting the OT saying "I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob".

In that text Christ "proves" the resurrection of the dead by showing the disbelieving Sadducees that the ONLY WAY out of the dilemma is for there to be a future resurrection of the dead because "God is NOT the God of the dead" -- according to Christ in that chapter.

But those who believe in praying to the dead will argue "no there is another way that God can be the God of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob while dead - and that is if there is the immortal-dead or the living-dead or the dead that can relate to God without having to first be resurrected". Indeed not at all part of Christ's logic in Matt 22 apparently.

Instructive for the unbiased objective reader.

No wonder the Bible says that we are "NOT to consult the DEAD on behalf of the living" Is 8:19 and this includes what Paul calls the "DEAD in Christ" in 1Thess 4 - who "rise first".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Are Abraham, Isaac and Jacob dead or alive? And in what way?

I will answer your question shortly.
As you know I come from a Catholic family. My parents have now passed away, and to my knowledge all of my uncles and and aunts. There are some relatives of mine that go into the cemetery to the grave of their loved one, weep and pray to the one who has passed away. If they never trusted Christ they are not only dead physically they are dead spiritually. They are in hell. That is hard to say, but it is the hard truth.
All of them are dead physically. If per chance one of them trusted Christ, and another goes through the same action, then they are still praying to a dead person. The resurrection has not yet taken place. They are dead.

Now transfer that scene to earth. If that person is my nephew would he bow down before me and start praying to me? No, that is idolatry. The same is idolatry that happened in the cemetery. Alive or dead all prayer belongs to God and God alone. All worship (and prayer is worship) belongs only to God. We are not pray TO others.

Twice in heaven John fell down and prayed before an angel. He rebuked him strongly--"See thou do it not!" "For I also am thy fellow servant."
All prayer is directed to God alone.

Christ is God of the living; the spiritual living: Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, etc. But that doesn't give one license to pray to them. Praying to them is idolatry; it is in the realm of necromancy. Praying to the dead is forbidden for all prayer belongs to God and him alone. Prayer is worship. Taking that worship away from God is as good as robbing God of the worship due him.

 

[Baptist4life]

Read it for yourselves.

18. It is therefore, a pleasure for us, a full century having passed since the Pontiff of immortal memory, Pius IX, solemnly proclaimed this singular privilege of the Virgin Mother of God, to summarize the whole doctrinal position and conclude in these words of the same Pontiff, asserting that this doctrine "vouched for in Sacred Scripture according to the interpretation of the Fathers, is handed down by them in so many of their important writings, is expressed and celebrated in so many illustrious monuments of renowned antiquity, and proposed and confirmed by the greatest and highest decision of the Church" (Bull Ineffabilis Deus), so that to pastors and faithful there is nothing "more sweet, nothing dearer than to worship, venerate, invoke and praise with ardent affection the Mother of God conceived without stain of original sin. (Ibidem.)
33. But where - as is the case in almost all dioceses, there exists a church in which the Virgin Mother of God is worshipped with more intense devotion, thither on stated days let pilgrims flock together in great numbers and publicly and in the open give glorious expression to their common Faith and their common love toward the Virgin Most Holy. We have no doubt that this will be done in an especial manner at the Grotto of Lourdes, where there is such ardent devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary conceived without stain of sin.
34. But let this holy city of Rome be the first to give the example, this city which from the earliest Christian era worshipped the heavenly mother, its patroness, with a special devotion. As all know, there are many sacred edifices here, in which she is proposed for the devotion of the Roman people; but the greatest without doubt is the Liberian Basilica, in which the mosaics of Our predecessor of pious memory, Sixtus III, still glisten, an outstanding monument to the Divine maternity of the Virgin Mary, and in which the "salvation of the Roman people" (Salus Populi Romani) benignly smiles
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pi...corona_en.html

But all the above is perfectly fine just as long as you know that she isn't God. Oh the "beauty" of deception.

 

[KJVRICH]

in a word.....WOW!!!
now the catholics will reply.....no...no...thats not what was meant...the words are "twisted".....catholics dont worship mary....we only venerate her...

 

[DHK]

in a word.....WOW!!!
now the catholics will reply.....no...no...thats not what was meant...the words are "twisted".....catholics dont worship mary....we only venerate her...

Venerate and worship are the same thing. Don't go to a Catholic dictionary to look up these words. They put a false dichotomy between the two. Any secular dictionary will give you the two words in the same definition. When God is venerated he is worshiped and vice-versa. Don't let the RCC deceive you.

 

[KJVRICH]

Venerate and worship are the same thing. Don't go to a Catholic dictionary to look up these words. They put a false dichotomy between the two. Any secular dictionary will give you the two words in the same definition. When God is venerated he is worshiped and vice-versa. Don't let the RCC deceive you.

I will not let the RCC deceive me, I am on to them !

 

[DHK]

I will not let the RCC deceive me, I am on to them !

Are "on" to them, or, are you "one" of them?

 

[Yeshua1]

In this forum Bob has just as much right as you do to post.

true, as we also have false Gospel catholic apoligist posting, so having another teaching a false gospel fits right in!

 

[Yeshua1]

indeed he does and he can use whatever method or tactic he thinks will work best.

All have free will. If there are some who are firmly dedicated to evangelism-through-name-calling, I certainly am not trying to deprive them of their right to pursue such a course all they wish. It was all the rage in the dark ages. Millions fell for it.

However I for one am not inclined to believe that all Baptist on this forum are willing to go down that road.

in Christ,

Bob

NOT name calling you by others here, its just that you MUST realise that you are teaching heresy, from a false prophetess!

 

[Yeshua1]

Read it for yourselves.

18. It is therefore, a pleasure for us, a full century having passed since the Pontiff of immortal memory, Pius IX, solemnly proclaimed this singular privilege of the Virgin Mother of God, to summarize the whole doctrinal position and conclude in these words of the same Pontiff, asserting that this doctrine "vouched for in Sacred Scripture according to the interpretation of the Fathers, is handed down by them in so many of their important writings, is expressed and celebrated in so many illustrious monuments of renowned antiquity, and proposed and confirmed by the greatest and highest decision of the Church" (Bull Ineffabilis Deus), so that to pastors and faithful there is nothing "more sweet, nothing dearer than to worship, venerate, invoke and praise with ardent affection the Mother of God conceived without stain of original sin. (Ibidem.)
33. But where - as is the case in almost all dioceses, there exists a church in which the Virgin Mother of God is worshipped with more intense devotion, thither on stated days let pilgrims flock together in great numbers and publicly and in the open give glorious expression to their common Faith and their common love toward the Virgin Most Holy. We have no doubt that this will be done in an especial manner at the Grotto of Lourdes, where there is such ardent devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary conceived without stain of sin.
34. But let this holy city of Rome be the first to give the example, this city which from the earliest Christian era worshipped the heavenly mother, its patroness, with a special devotion. As all know, there are many sacred edifices here, in which she is proposed for the devotion of the Roman people; but the greatest without doubt is the Liberian Basilica, in which the mosaics of Our predecessor of pious memory, Sixtus III, still glisten, an outstanding monument to the Divine maternity of the Virgin Mary, and in which the "salvation of the Roman people" (Salus Populi Romani) benignly smiles
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pi...corona_en.html

But all the above is perfectly fine just as long as you know that she isn't God. Oh the "beauty" of deception.

That is blashemy and heresay!

ANY catholic who denies that the RCC teaches that Mary is like the "4th person of the trinity" is deluding themselves!

 

[KJVRICH]

Are "on" to them, or, are you "one" of them?

No longer ... Born and raised catholic, but a 1-1/2 yr ago I accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and savior, and left the Catholic Church for a bible believing baptist church !!!

 

[DHK]

No longer ... Born and raised catholic, but a 1-1/2 yr ago I accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and savior, and left the Catholic Church for a bible believing baptist church !!!

Amen! Keep on keeping on.

 

[BobRyan]

you MUST realise that you are teaching heresy, from a false prophetess!

There has been no case made for that so far - so why should we believe your suggestion simply because you suggest it?

This is the more reasonable approach.

Less name calling - more actual facts -- I always say.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Venerate and worship are the same thing. .

Even by Catholic standards. When you read what they say about the Eucharist - it is the same "venerate" and "adore" of the "host" in the form of bread... and then later find that they also "adore" and "venerate" Mary.

In the first case they admit that this adoring, and venerating is in fact worshipping the host. In the case with Mary - I think we were "not supposed to notice".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Eliyahu]

Mary is mere a skeleton waiting for the resurrection .
This is nothing but a blasphey to God.

A beautiful Idolatry, abominable to God.