How Do They Know?

[David Michael Harris]

I agree you are not a fool. But does that really explain why you chose positively. Is it just possible that it was the work of God not David Michael Harris?

That I just cannot answer other than the drowning man and a hand to save.
Instinct, desire to survive?

I just took what was offered, and I needed it. I was quite broken at that time.

Maybe if I had been strong I might have even acted in a way that would have been indicative of despising.

Then again, if I had been strong it may have never come to me at all?

The world has insulted God enough as it is.

 

[David Michael Harris]

Sheer Mercy.

Thank you Lord Jesus.

 

[OldRegular]

That I just cannot answer other than the drowning man and a hand to save.
Instinct, desire to survive?

I just took what was offered, and I needed it. I was quite broken at that time.

Maybe if I had been strong I might have even acted in a way that would have been indicative of despising.

Then again, if I had been strong it may have never come to me at all?

The world has insulted God enough as it is.

David

As I said in the OP I believe that Salvation is a Supernatural experience. It is not simply the mechanical acceptance of the facts of the birth, sacrificial death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. I believed that years before I was saved because I had been taught it.

I believe that Salvation from beginning to end is the work of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Furthermore, I believe that God works in the life of each person He has chosen to bring them to Salvation. God saves people one at a time. May I say that your admission:

That I just cannot answer other than the drowning man and a hand to save.

is a powerful testimony to the Grace of God.

 

[OldRegular]

Sheer Mercy.

Thank you Lord Jesus.

I can give a hearty AMEN to that!

 

[David Michael Harris]

David

As I said in the OP I believe that Salvation is a Supernatural experience. It is not simply the mechanical acceptance of the facts of the birth, sacrificial death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. I believed that years before I was saved because I had been taught it.

I believe that Salvation from beginning to end is the work of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Furthermore, I believe that God works in the life of each person He has chosen to bring them to Salvation. God saves people one at a time. May I say that your admission:
is a powerful testimony to the Grace of God.

I guess I would agree.

Lord, I worship You. For Your Name is Holy.

Lord have mercy on others.

 

[Skandelon]

I answered the question in your OP Skandelon now you answer the question in mine.

Seriously, do you read my replies? I answered you already when I wrote:

"What you need to realize is that the drive to explain a truly free choice in this manner is really just a game of question begging because it assumes that a deterministic explaination is required. The choice between available options is what free will is all about and it is finally mysterious, beyond full explanation, for full explanations presuppose the very determinism we reject. Do you understand?"

 

[David Michael Harris]

I still reached out and took that hand I might add.

Man it's a fine line.

 

[OldRegular]

Seriously, do you read my replies? I answered you already when I wrote:

"What you need to realize is that the drive to explain a truly free choice in this manner is really just a game of question begging because it assumes that a deterministic explaination is required. The choice between available options is what free will is all about and it is finally mysterious, beyond full explanation, for full explanations presuppose the very determinism we reject. Do you understand?"

I would say that if you cannot explain the reason then it is not a free choice.

 

[canadyjd]

I still reached out and took that hand I might add.

Man it's a fine line.

I later realized that when I reached out to take His hand, I was already being held in His other hand.

peace to youraying:

 

[Skandelon]

I would say that if you cannot explain the reason then it is not a free choice.

And in doing so you reveal your ignorance of the topic. You don't have to agree with me, but at least study opposing positions and come to a basic understanding before diving in with attacks.

Allow me to explain, those of us who hold to libertarian free will believe in "first cause choices." That is we believe in Self-determination...the belief that for a choice to be morally accountable it must not be determined by anything other than the agent making that choice (Agent Causation). Your desire to find a determination ("reason") for a moral choice assumes your premise that something other than the agent himself determined his choice and is a debate fallacy call "begging the question."

Libertarian Free Will still acknowledges the influence of outside factors and even leaves room for some decisions to be "causally determined," but it maintains that for a choice to be free, and thus morally accountable, then the agent must have had the ability to willingly do other than what he ends up doing.

That is a very precursory look at the subject, so may I suggest reading up on the topic and having another go at it.

 

[canadyjd]

Libertarian Free Will still acknowledges the influence of outside factors and even leaves room for some decisions to be "causally determined," but it maintains that for a choice to be free, and thus morally accountable, then the agent must have had the ability to willingly do other than what he ends up doing.

Did the Hebrew people have the ability to keep the Old Testament Law?

In their fallen state, do people have the ability to love the Lord God with all their heart, mind, strength?

peace to youraying:

 

[OldRegular]

And in doing so you reveal your ignorance of the topic. You don't have to agree with me, but at least study opposing positions and come to a basic understanding before diving in with attacks.

I made no attack; your paranoia is showing. I simply said:

Originally Posted by OldRegular
I would say that if you cannot explain the reason then it is not a free choice.

Allow me to explain, those of us who hold to libertarian free will believe in "first cause choices." That is we believe in Self-determination...the belief that for a choice to be morally accountable it must not be determined by anything other than the agent making that choice (Agent Causation).

That sounds just like what I said in my remarks above. If you cannot explain the reason for your "libertarian free choice" then it cannot be a free choice as I said in my original quote which I will repeat for your edification.

Originally Posted by OldRegular
I would say that if you cannot explain the reason then it is not a free choice.

Your desire to find a determination ("reason") for a moral choice assumes your premise that something other than the agent himself determined his choice and is a debate fallacy call "begging the question."

You may call it "begging the question if you choose. In the discussion of the OP I call it the Doctrine of Grace!

As for "Self-determination" may I quote Scripture since this is a Forum on Baptist Theology?

Proverbs 14:12, KJV There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Libertarian Free Will still acknowledges the influence of outside factors and even leaves room for some decisions to be "causally determined," but it maintains that for a choice to be free, and thus morally accountable, then the agent must have had the ability to willingly do other than what he ends up doing.

That is a very precursory look at the subject, so may I suggest reading up on the topic and having another go at it.

When it comes to Salvation I am not particularly interested in "libertarian free will" but in the Grace of God.

If you want to discuss such esoteric/arcane issues such as "libertarian free will" then perhaps you can encourage the Web Master to start a Forum on "Philosophy, etc.".

Does your "libertarian free will" tell you that you cannot defend your position on salvation so you fall back on what many on this Forum like to call "ad hominem" attacks on one's learning?:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

 

[saturneptune]

Kind of a funny question, for if we were given faith by God without being aware of it, how come Calvinist's and Doctrines of Gracer's are aware of it?

I would ask you, how did you know when God regenerated you?

What kind of ridiculous question is that? You were regenerated when you sensed the Holy Spirit working in your life convicting you of sin. How did you think it worked? Did you think your nose lit up green when the regeneration signal hit your body?

 

[saturneptune]

I'm starting to believe you don't read all my posts.


Here let me post it again:

I am not a Calvinists and I believe that we do have "free will." But I aslo believe that God has performed an act of Grace in my life in order that I might believe unto salvation.

I believe God sending his Son to disciple the apostles and to die on the cross was an act of Grace.

I believe God sending the Holy Spirit to inspire the scripture and send the powerful truth of the gospel to the whole world was an act of Grace.

I believe that when my parents, full of the Spirit themselves, witnessed to me and shared this powerful truth with me that was an act of Grace.

I just don't believe that any of the acts of Grace were "irresistible" and unique only to those "unconditionally elected." Find some passages that support these parts of your dogma and then maybe your point will be valid and worthy of further consideration.

You know what is amazing about your flawed theology, is that you believe you have it within yourself , in a fallen and sinful state, with your free will, to accept the call to salvation. Yet, once you attain that salvation, you believe you cannot lose it. In other words, you have the free will to accept salvation, but do not have it to lose it at a later date.

 

[OldRegular]

You know what is amazing about your flawed theology, is that you believe you have it within yourself , in a fallen and sinful state, with your free will, to accept the call to salvation. Yet, once you attain that salvation, you believe you cannot lose it. In other words, you have the free will to accept salvation, but do not have it to lose it at a later date.

Excellent point!:thumbs::thumbs:

 

[DHK]

What kind of ridiculous question is that? You were regenerated when you sensed the Holy Spirit working in your life convicting you of sin. How did you think it worked? Did you think your nose lit up green when the regeneration signal hit your body?

Many sense the Holy Spirit working in their life but resist it. Just because the Holy Spirit works in a person's life does not automatically mean they become regenerated. They become regenerated when they believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and his atoning work on the cross.

 

[OldRegular]

Many sense the Holy Spirit working in their life but resist it. Just because the Holy Spirit works in a person's life does not automatically mean they become regenerated. They become regenerated when they believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and his atoning work on the cross.

Given your response above you should be able to answer the challenged posed in the OP.

Since Salvation is a supernatural work of God how do those who hold the doctrine of Freewillism know that God has not already performed an act of Grace in their life and given them the Faith to believe. They don’t! Neither can they!

 

[DHK]

Given your response above you should be able to answer the challenged posed in the OP.

Since Salvation is a supernatural work of God how do those who hold the doctrine of Freewillism know that God has not already performed an act of Grace in their life and given them the Faith to believe. They don’t! Neither can they!

You asked the question and you answered it. Your answer is wrong. A person knows when a work of grace is done in their life. It is done when they invite Christ to be Lord of their life. At that moment Christ, by the power of his Holy Spirit comes and takes up residence in that person. Most often the person is given peace, joy, a sense of forgiveness of sins. When you say "They don't! Neither can they!" You simply tell a lie. They can. The Holy Spirit now resides within. There is a difference between one who is dead and one who is alive.

 

[Robert Snow]

You asked the question and you answered it. Your answer is wrong. A person knows when a work of grace is done in their life. It is done when they invite Christ to be Lord of their life. At that moment Christ, by the power of his Holy Spirit comes and takes up residence in that person. Most often the person is given peace, joy, a sense of forgiveness of sins. When you say "They don't! Neither can they!" You simply tell a lie. They can. The Holy Spirit now resides within. There is a difference between one who is dead and one who is alive.

I believe this is just more work games by OR. He will not stop until you say something he can twist and make it appear that you did not have a choice in responding to God, thereby saying that you, unknowingly, hold to the same doctrine he does.

Unless I read you wrong, you believe, like I do, that the Holy Spirit offers salvation and we have a choice as to whether or not to accept it.

BTW, I don't know why one accepts the Gospel while another one rejects it. I certainly don't believe the false doctrine that it is because God wants the lost to remain lost.

 

[OldRegular]

You asked the question and you answered it. Your answer is wrong. A person knows when a work of grace is done in their life. It is done when they invite Christ to be Lord of their life. At that moment Christ, by the power of his Holy Spirit comes and takes up residence in that person. Most often the person is given peace, joy, a sense of forgiveness of sins. When you say "They don't! Neither can they!" You simply tell a lie. They can. The Holy Spirit now resides within. There is a difference between one who is dead and one who is alive.

You are giving opinion not fact. How do you know that you "invited Christ to be Lord of your life" of your own free will or whether it was caused by a supernatural act of God? Did you make yourself spiritually alive or are you telling me that one who is spiritually dead can perform a spiritual act? Scripture itself states unequivocally:

John 6:36-39, KJV
36. But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39. And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 6:44, KJV
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 10: 14, 26-29, KJV
14. I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
26. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

John 6:44 alone tells us that God has already performed a supernatural act in the life of one who comes to Jesus Christ. Who are you to place limits on what God can do?

By the way, you are a moderator DHK. Isn't it contrary to the Forum rules to call someone a liar? You seem to make a habit of it.