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How Do They Know?
- Thread starter OldRegular
- Start date
I spoke the truth. It is factual. This is another lie that you have posted.
His Spirit bears witness with my spirit that I am a child of God. Can you say the same thing?
Tell me first if you know what "dead" means. I don't believe you have a proper understanding of the word.
BTW: If you bear false witness against I will point it out to you and tell you up front that it is a lie. That is not against the rules. Please do not post that which is not true about me.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Calling someone a liar may not be against the rules but questioning their salvation is.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I recognize that there are certain who post on this Forum who bragg that they base their beliefs on nothing but their reading of the Bible. Frankly I believe it supremely arrogant to think GOD cannot reveal something to another of HIS Chosen Ones that HE does not reveale to me. Therefore, I believe a judicious reading of certain authors is both wise and fruitful. Regarding the question of the Doctrines of Grace I present the following writings from two of the outstanding 19th Century Southern Baptists and the current president of the Southern Seminary [Louisville] for the edification of certain on this Forum.
Dr.James P. Boyce, cofounder and first president of the Southern Baptist Seminary [Louisville], defines election to salvation as follows [Abstract of Systematic Theology , page 347]:
“God, of His own purpose, has from eternity determined to save a definite number of mankind as individuals, not for or because of any merit or works of theirs, nor of any value of them to Him; but of His own good pleasure”.
Dr.John L. Dagg in his Manual of Theology , page 309, defines election to salvation simply as:
“All who will finally be saved, were chosen to salvation by God the Father, before the foundation of the world, and given to Jesus Christ in the Covenant of Grace.”
Dagg [page 322] comments on the natural man’s inability regarding salvation, as follows:
“Every proposed method of salvation that leaves the issue dependent on human volition is defective. It has always been found that men will not come to Christ for life. The Gospel is preached to every creature; but all, with one consent, ask to be excused. The will of man must be changed; and this change the will cannot itself effect. Divine grace must here interpose. Unless God works in the sinner to will and to do, salvation is impossible.”
Dagg notes, page 277f:
“In our natural state we are totally depraved. No inclination to holiness exists in the carnal heart; and no holy act can be performed, or service to God rendered, until the heart is changed. This change, it is the office of the Holy Spirit to effect.”
“So great is the change produced, that the subject of it is called a new creature as if proceeding, like Adam, directly from the creating hand of God; and he is said to be renewed, as being restored to the image of God, in which man was originally formed, With reference to the mode in which the descendants of Adam came into the world, the change is denominated regeneration, and the subjects of it are said to be born again.”
Dagg further notes [278]:
“The change is moral. The body is unchanged; and the identity of the mind is not destroyed. The individual is conscious of being the same person that he was before; but a new direction is given to the active powers of the mind, and new affections are brought into exercise. The love of God is shed abroad in the heart by the Holy Ghost. No love to God had previously existed there; for the carnal heart is enmity against God. Love is the fulfilling of the law, the principle of all holy obedience; and when love is produced in the heart, the law of God is written there. As a new principle of action, inciting to a new mode of life, it renders the man a new creature. The production of love in the heart by the Holy Spirit, is the regeneration, or the new birth; for he that loveth, is born of God.”
“The mode in which the Holy Spirit effects this change, is beyond our understanding. All God's ways are unsearchable; and we might as well attempt to explain how he created the world, as how he new-creates the soul. With reference to this subject, the Saviour said, The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.[John 3:8, KJV] We know, from the Holy Scriptures, that God employs his truth in the regeneration of the soul. Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.[James 1:18, KJV] Love to God necessarily implies knowledge of God, and this knowledge it is the province of truth to impart. But knowledge is not always connected with love. The devils know, but do not love; and wicked men delight not to retain the knowledge of God, because their knowledge of him is not connected with love. The mere presentation of the truth to the mind, is not all that is needed, in producing love to God in the heart.”
Note: Dr. John L. Dagg was the first Southern Baptist to write a book on theology.
Fidelitas
Dr. Albert Mohler
Comments on News and Issues by R. Albert Mohler, Jr.
The Reformation of Doctrine and the Renewal of the Church: A Response to Dr. William R. Estep
One of the most promising signs of renewal in Southern Baptist life is the emergence of genuine theological discussion and historical interest. After decades marked by the absence of significant interest in many doctrines, Southern Baptists are awakening to historic doctrinal debates in a new key.
As if awakened from doctrinal amnesia, the denomination faces the promise of both renewal and reformation. In this process, we may recover our theological heritage even as we address our modern context of ministry.
Dr. William R. Estep, one of Southern Baptists' most distinguished historians, has recently directed attention to a resurgent Calvinism in Southern Baptist life. The "Calvinizing" of the Southern Baptist Convention, he fears, is a dangerous development.
I am pleased to have the opportunity to respond to Dr. Estep, and to present a very different understanding of what is at stake. Though vitriolic and harsh in tone, his article deserves a respectful and thoughtful response.
First, let me state at the onset that if Calvinism is accurately represented by Dr. Estep's treatment, I will have nothing to do with it. Nevertheless, few of Calvin's friends or enemies will recognize Calvinism as presented in Dr. Estep's article.
Calvin and Calvinism
Calvinism clearly draws its name from John Calvin, the sixteenth century Reformer whose towering intellect and biblical preaching gave birth to the "Reformed" tradition as one of the central streams of the Reformation. Calvin's mission was to establish the Church on the basis of Scripture, with its doctrine and practice drawn from Scripture itself.
His Institutes of the Christian Religion, first published in 1536, was his effort to set forth the doctrines revealed in the Bible. Few works have come close to the Institutes in terms of influence in the Church. Elsewhere, Dr. Estep has described the Institutes as "one of Protestantism's greatest attempts at erecting a systematic theology." Calvinism is simply the Reformation tradition which is associated most closely with Calvin.
Dr. Estep presents a very severe portrait of Calvin the Reformer, and those looking for severity in Calvin need not look far. He was a sixteenth century man who bore many of the prejudices and political dispositions common to his day. He would not understand the notion of religious liberty, and he was ready to use the arm of the law to enforce correct doctrine.
No Calvinist I know would advocate Calvin's position on these issues, any more than modern Lutherans would endorse Martin Luther's anti-Semitism. Baptists who quickly reject Calvin's theology because of his shortcomings on other issues must, if honest, reject virtually any influence from previous centuries. This holds true for Dr. Estep's treasured Anabaptists as well.
Calvin is not fairly depicted in Dr. Estep's article, but that is not the real issue. The issue is not Calvin, but the truth or falsehood of the doctrines he taught, and the doctrines now associated with his name.
Continued in following post.
Dr.James P. Boyce, cofounder and first president of the Southern Baptist Seminary [Louisville], defines election to salvation as follows [Abstract of Systematic Theology , page 347]:
“God, of His own purpose, has from eternity determined to save a definite number of mankind as individuals, not for or because of any merit or works of theirs, nor of any value of them to Him; but of His own good pleasure”.
Dr.John L. Dagg in his Manual of Theology , page 309, defines election to salvation simply as:
“All who will finally be saved, were chosen to salvation by God the Father, before the foundation of the world, and given to Jesus Christ in the Covenant of Grace.”
Dagg [page 322] comments on the natural man’s inability regarding salvation, as follows:
“Every proposed method of salvation that leaves the issue dependent on human volition is defective. It has always been found that men will not come to Christ for life. The Gospel is preached to every creature; but all, with one consent, ask to be excused. The will of man must be changed; and this change the will cannot itself effect. Divine grace must here interpose. Unless God works in the sinner to will and to do, salvation is impossible.”
Dagg notes, page 277f:
“In our natural state we are totally depraved. No inclination to holiness exists in the carnal heart; and no holy act can be performed, or service to God rendered, until the heart is changed. This change, it is the office of the Holy Spirit to effect.”
“So great is the change produced, that the subject of it is called a new creature as if proceeding, like Adam, directly from the creating hand of God; and he is said to be renewed, as being restored to the image of God, in which man was originally formed, With reference to the mode in which the descendants of Adam came into the world, the change is denominated regeneration, and the subjects of it are said to be born again.”
Dagg further notes [278]:
“The change is moral. The body is unchanged; and the identity of the mind is not destroyed. The individual is conscious of being the same person that he was before; but a new direction is given to the active powers of the mind, and new affections are brought into exercise. The love of God is shed abroad in the heart by the Holy Ghost. No love to God had previously existed there; for the carnal heart is enmity against God. Love is the fulfilling of the law, the principle of all holy obedience; and when love is produced in the heart, the law of God is written there. As a new principle of action, inciting to a new mode of life, it renders the man a new creature. The production of love in the heart by the Holy Spirit, is the regeneration, or the new birth; for he that loveth, is born of God.”
“The mode in which the Holy Spirit effects this change, is beyond our understanding. All God's ways are unsearchable; and we might as well attempt to explain how he created the world, as how he new-creates the soul. With reference to this subject, the Saviour said, The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.[John 3:8, KJV] We know, from the Holy Scriptures, that God employs his truth in the regeneration of the soul. Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.[James 1:18, KJV] Love to God necessarily implies knowledge of God, and this knowledge it is the province of truth to impart. But knowledge is not always connected with love. The devils know, but do not love; and wicked men delight not to retain the knowledge of God, because their knowledge of him is not connected with love. The mere presentation of the truth to the mind, is not all that is needed, in producing love to God in the heart.”
Note: Dr. John L. Dagg was the first Southern Baptist to write a book on theology.
Fidelitas
Dr. Albert Mohler
Comments on News and Issues by R. Albert Mohler, Jr.
The Reformation of Doctrine and the Renewal of the Church: A Response to Dr. William R. Estep
One of the most promising signs of renewal in Southern Baptist life is the emergence of genuine theological discussion and historical interest. After decades marked by the absence of significant interest in many doctrines, Southern Baptists are awakening to historic doctrinal debates in a new key.
As if awakened from doctrinal amnesia, the denomination faces the promise of both renewal and reformation. In this process, we may recover our theological heritage even as we address our modern context of ministry.
Dr. William R. Estep, one of Southern Baptists' most distinguished historians, has recently directed attention to a resurgent Calvinism in Southern Baptist life. The "Calvinizing" of the Southern Baptist Convention, he fears, is a dangerous development.
I am pleased to have the opportunity to respond to Dr. Estep, and to present a very different understanding of what is at stake. Though vitriolic and harsh in tone, his article deserves a respectful and thoughtful response.
First, let me state at the onset that if Calvinism is accurately represented by Dr. Estep's treatment, I will have nothing to do with it. Nevertheless, few of Calvin's friends or enemies will recognize Calvinism as presented in Dr. Estep's article.
Calvin and Calvinism
Calvinism clearly draws its name from John Calvin, the sixteenth century Reformer whose towering intellect and biblical preaching gave birth to the "Reformed" tradition as one of the central streams of the Reformation. Calvin's mission was to establish the Church on the basis of Scripture, with its doctrine and practice drawn from Scripture itself.
His Institutes of the Christian Religion, first published in 1536, was his effort to set forth the doctrines revealed in the Bible. Few works have come close to the Institutes in terms of influence in the Church. Elsewhere, Dr. Estep has described the Institutes as "one of Protestantism's greatest attempts at erecting a systematic theology." Calvinism is simply the Reformation tradition which is associated most closely with Calvin.
Dr. Estep presents a very severe portrait of Calvin the Reformer, and those looking for severity in Calvin need not look far. He was a sixteenth century man who bore many of the prejudices and political dispositions common to his day. He would not understand the notion of religious liberty, and he was ready to use the arm of the law to enforce correct doctrine.
No Calvinist I know would advocate Calvin's position on these issues, any more than modern Lutherans would endorse Martin Luther's anti-Semitism. Baptists who quickly reject Calvin's theology because of his shortcomings on other issues must, if honest, reject virtually any influence from previous centuries. This holds true for Dr. Estep's treasured Anabaptists as well.
Calvin is not fairly depicted in Dr. Estep's article, but that is not the real issue. The issue is not Calvin, but the truth or falsehood of the doctrines he taught, and the doctrines now associated with his name.
Continued in following post.
Last edited by a moderator:
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Continued from preceding post.
Fidelitas
Dr. Albert Mohler
Comments on News and Issues by R. Albert Mohler, Jr.
The Reformation of Doctrine and the Renewal of the Church: A Response to Dr. William R. Estep
The Heart of the Matter
The central tenet of Calvinism is the sovereignty of God. This is the starting point and the highest principle of Reformed theology. Calvinism is God-centered and draws its understanding of God directly from His self-revelation in Scripture. The God revealed in the Bible is the sovereign Creator, Ruler, and Redeemer. His omnipotence, omniscience, and governance over all things set this God of the Bible apart from all false gods.
The God of the Bible is the holy, ruling, limitless, acting, all-powerful God who makes nations to rise and to fall, who accomplishes His purposes, and who redeems His people. Arminianism--the theological system opposed to Calvinism--necessarily holds to a very different understanding of God, His power, and His government over all things.
Calvinism is most closely and accurately associated with the so-called "Doctrines of Grace," which summarize the teaching of Scripture concerning the gospel. The Bible teaches us that we are born sinners, and are thus spiritually dead. Dead in our sins, we cannot on our own even respond to God's grace. Thus, as Jesus told His disciples, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father" [John 6:65].
Further, the Bible makes clear that God has chosen a people "chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father" [I Peter 1:2]. Paul, in writing to the Ephesian church, states that the Father has chosen us in Christ before the foundation of the world, and "predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ" [Ephesian 1:3-5]. The New Testament resounds with words including "chosen", "election," and "predestination." The issue is not whether these are taught by Calvin, but whether they are taught in Scripture.
We would like to think that we are smart enough, spiritually sensitive enough, and responsive enough to chose to confess Christ without the prior work of God in our hearts. Unfortunately for our pride, this is not at all what the Bible reveals. God chooses us before we choose Him. As Southern Seminary president E. Y. Mullins stated, "God's choice of a person is prior to that person's choice of God, since God is infinite in wisdom and knowledge and will not make the success of the divine kingdom dependent on the contingent choices of people."
Calvinism is nothing more and nothing less than the simple assertion that salvation is all of grace, from the beginning to the end. God saves sinners. Jesus Christ died for sinners. As Scripture promises, all those who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
The God of the Bible saves sinners, and holds those He has redeemed to the end. The vast majority of Southern Baptists hold to the doctrine known as the "Perseverance of the Saints," but that precious promise makes sense only in terms of the doctrines of grace. Our choice of Christ is indeed necessary, but He has first chosen us--and He will keep us to the end.
Many Southern Baptists find predestination and other doctrines difficult to understand and even offensive to our pride. But we cannot read the New Testament without coming again and again to these doctrines.
Calvinism and Evangelism
Dr. Estep charges that a revival of Calvinism will lead to a lessening of evangelistic commitment and missionary vision. This is a common charge, but it is reckless and without foundation. Indeed, many of the most significant missionary and evangelistic movements in the history of the Church have been led by those who held to the very doctrines Dr. Estep laments.
These have included Charles Spurgeon, the greatest Baptist preacher of the last century, whose ministry at London's Metropolitan Tabernacle was among the most evangelistic in the history of Christianity. Spurgeon openly and consistently advocated all of the distinctive doctrines of Calvinism, and publicly identified himself as a Calvinist. In a day of doctrinal decline, Spurgeon sounded the alarm for a recovery of biblical truth and the "doctrines of grace." When asked how he reconciled his Calvinism and fervent evangelism, he responded: "I do not try to reconcile friends."
Dr. Estep claims Andrew Fuller as an opponent of Calvinism, yet Fuller also held to the Doctrines of Grace. He clearly advocated the doctrine of election. In The Gospel Worthy of All Acceptation, cited by Dr. Estep, Fuller affirms that "none ever did or will believe in Christ but those who are chosen of God from eternity."
William Carey, the "Father of Modern Missions," was himself a Calvinist, as were leaders such as Jonathan Edwards and the great George White field. The Evangelism Explosion program used by so many Southern Baptist churches was developed by a Calvinist.
If Calvinism is an enemy to missions and evangelism, it is an enemy to the Gospel itself. The Great Commission and the task of evangelism are assigned to every congregation and every believer. The charge that Calvinism is opposed to evangelism simply will not stick--it is a false argument. The Doctrines of Grace are nothing less than a statement of the Gospel itself. Through the substitutionary work of Christ, God saves sinners. The great promise is that whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Calvinism and the Southern Baptist Convention
Even the opponents of Calvinism must admit, if historically informed, that Calvinism is the theological tradition into which the Baptist movement was born. The same is true of the Southern Baptist Convention. The most influential Baptist churches, leaders, confessions of faith, and theologians of the founding era were Calvinistic.
The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary was born of this Calvinistic tradition, as reflected in its Abstract of Principles. James P. Boyce, in calling for the Seminary's founding, charged it to oppose all heresies, including Arminianism.
It was not until well into the twentieth century that any knowledgeable person could claim that Southern Baptists were anything but Calvinists. In referring to early Southern Baptists (especially James P. Boyce), Dr. Estep charges that they misunderstood Calvinism. This is a strange and innovative charge, considering that Boyce, for example, had been trained at Princeton Theological Seminary--the fountainhead of Calvinism in nineteenth-century America.
Boyce's colleague John A. Broadus--the greatest Baptist preacher of his day--was so certain that Calvinism was revealed in the Bible that he challenged those who sneer at Calvinism to "sneer at Mount Blanc." Broadus was certain that the doctrines known as Calvinism were those preached by Paul and the other Apostles, and were revealed in Holy Scripture.
Other Southern Baptist leaders were also well-identified Calvinists. These included J. B. Gambrell and B. H. Carroll, the founder of Southwestern Seminary.
Calvinism was the mainstream tradition in the Southern Baptist Convention until the turn of the century. The rise of modern notions of individual liberty and the general spirit of the age have led to an accommodation of historic doctrines in some circles.
Dr. Estep is correct in noting the modifications to Calvinism which have occurred among Southern Baptists. Most Baptists hold to at least part of Calvinism, while generally unaware of the whole.
As Southern Baptists seek to recover our theological inheritance and the essence of biblical Christianity, I believe we will see a return to a more Calvinistic understanding of the gospel and a recognition of the absolute sovereignty of God.
Nevertheless, my main concern is not that Southern Baptists return to Calvinism--or to any human theological system. Our main concern must be to see Southern Baptists return to theological health and biblical fidelity. This theological and biblical reformation will, I am certain, also lead to a blazing recovery of missionary zeal and evangelistic fervor--and to the renewal of our churches and denomination. Southern Baptists will truly be headed for a well-deserved dunghill only when we retreat from biblical truth and withdraw from evangelism and missions.
We stand at an historic threshold. Now is the time for Southern Baptists to stand together on the great truths of God's Word and on the front lines of God's redemptive purpose. As Charles Spurgeon reminds us, we should rejoice whenever the Gospel is preached and shared--whether by a Calvinist or a non-Calvinist.
My personal agenda is not driven by Calvinism, but by the hope that Southern Baptists will embrace, confess, preach, and teach the truths of God's Word--and share the Gospel of Jesus Christ with every man, woman, and child on the earth. In this hope and vision we should all stand together.
As a dear friend has well stated, the real issue is not whether John Calvin is your personal theologian, but whether Jesus Christ is your personal Savior. By God's grace, may we see genuine reformation and renewal in our churches--and a Great Commission vision in our hearts.
Fidelitas
Dr. Albert Mohler
Comments on News and Issues by R. Albert Mohler, Jr.
The Reformation of Doctrine and the Renewal of the Church: A Response to Dr. William R. Estep
The Heart of the Matter
The central tenet of Calvinism is the sovereignty of God. This is the starting point and the highest principle of Reformed theology. Calvinism is God-centered and draws its understanding of God directly from His self-revelation in Scripture. The God revealed in the Bible is the sovereign Creator, Ruler, and Redeemer. His omnipotence, omniscience, and governance over all things set this God of the Bible apart from all false gods.
The God of the Bible is the holy, ruling, limitless, acting, all-powerful God who makes nations to rise and to fall, who accomplishes His purposes, and who redeems His people. Arminianism--the theological system opposed to Calvinism--necessarily holds to a very different understanding of God, His power, and His government over all things.
Calvinism is most closely and accurately associated with the so-called "Doctrines of Grace," which summarize the teaching of Scripture concerning the gospel. The Bible teaches us that we are born sinners, and are thus spiritually dead. Dead in our sins, we cannot on our own even respond to God's grace. Thus, as Jesus told His disciples, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father" [John 6:65].
Further, the Bible makes clear that God has chosen a people "chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father" [I Peter 1:2]. Paul, in writing to the Ephesian church, states that the Father has chosen us in Christ before the foundation of the world, and "predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ" [Ephesian 1:3-5]. The New Testament resounds with words including "chosen", "election," and "predestination." The issue is not whether these are taught by Calvin, but whether they are taught in Scripture.
We would like to think that we are smart enough, spiritually sensitive enough, and responsive enough to chose to confess Christ without the prior work of God in our hearts. Unfortunately for our pride, this is not at all what the Bible reveals. God chooses us before we choose Him. As Southern Seminary president E. Y. Mullins stated, "God's choice of a person is prior to that person's choice of God, since God is infinite in wisdom and knowledge and will not make the success of the divine kingdom dependent on the contingent choices of people."
Calvinism is nothing more and nothing less than the simple assertion that salvation is all of grace, from the beginning to the end. God saves sinners. Jesus Christ died for sinners. As Scripture promises, all those who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
The God of the Bible saves sinners, and holds those He has redeemed to the end. The vast majority of Southern Baptists hold to the doctrine known as the "Perseverance of the Saints," but that precious promise makes sense only in terms of the doctrines of grace. Our choice of Christ is indeed necessary, but He has first chosen us--and He will keep us to the end.
Many Southern Baptists find predestination and other doctrines difficult to understand and even offensive to our pride. But we cannot read the New Testament without coming again and again to these doctrines.
Calvinism and Evangelism
Dr. Estep charges that a revival of Calvinism will lead to a lessening of evangelistic commitment and missionary vision. This is a common charge, but it is reckless and without foundation. Indeed, many of the most significant missionary and evangelistic movements in the history of the Church have been led by those who held to the very doctrines Dr. Estep laments.
These have included Charles Spurgeon, the greatest Baptist preacher of the last century, whose ministry at London's Metropolitan Tabernacle was among the most evangelistic in the history of Christianity. Spurgeon openly and consistently advocated all of the distinctive doctrines of Calvinism, and publicly identified himself as a Calvinist. In a day of doctrinal decline, Spurgeon sounded the alarm for a recovery of biblical truth and the "doctrines of grace." When asked how he reconciled his Calvinism and fervent evangelism, he responded: "I do not try to reconcile friends."
Dr. Estep claims Andrew Fuller as an opponent of Calvinism, yet Fuller also held to the Doctrines of Grace. He clearly advocated the doctrine of election. In The Gospel Worthy of All Acceptation, cited by Dr. Estep, Fuller affirms that "none ever did or will believe in Christ but those who are chosen of God from eternity."
William Carey, the "Father of Modern Missions," was himself a Calvinist, as were leaders such as Jonathan Edwards and the great George White field. The Evangelism Explosion program used by so many Southern Baptist churches was developed by a Calvinist.
If Calvinism is an enemy to missions and evangelism, it is an enemy to the Gospel itself. The Great Commission and the task of evangelism are assigned to every congregation and every believer. The charge that Calvinism is opposed to evangelism simply will not stick--it is a false argument. The Doctrines of Grace are nothing less than a statement of the Gospel itself. Through the substitutionary work of Christ, God saves sinners. The great promise is that whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Calvinism and the Southern Baptist Convention
Even the opponents of Calvinism must admit, if historically informed, that Calvinism is the theological tradition into which the Baptist movement was born. The same is true of the Southern Baptist Convention. The most influential Baptist churches, leaders, confessions of faith, and theologians of the founding era were Calvinistic.
The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary was born of this Calvinistic tradition, as reflected in its Abstract of Principles. James P. Boyce, in calling for the Seminary's founding, charged it to oppose all heresies, including Arminianism.
It was not until well into the twentieth century that any knowledgeable person could claim that Southern Baptists were anything but Calvinists. In referring to early Southern Baptists (especially James P. Boyce), Dr. Estep charges that they misunderstood Calvinism. This is a strange and innovative charge, considering that Boyce, for example, had been trained at Princeton Theological Seminary--the fountainhead of Calvinism in nineteenth-century America.
Boyce's colleague John A. Broadus--the greatest Baptist preacher of his day--was so certain that Calvinism was revealed in the Bible that he challenged those who sneer at Calvinism to "sneer at Mount Blanc." Broadus was certain that the doctrines known as Calvinism were those preached by Paul and the other Apostles, and were revealed in Holy Scripture.
Other Southern Baptist leaders were also well-identified Calvinists. These included J. B. Gambrell and B. H. Carroll, the founder of Southwestern Seminary.
Calvinism was the mainstream tradition in the Southern Baptist Convention until the turn of the century. The rise of modern notions of individual liberty and the general spirit of the age have led to an accommodation of historic doctrines in some circles.
Dr. Estep is correct in noting the modifications to Calvinism which have occurred among Southern Baptists. Most Baptists hold to at least part of Calvinism, while generally unaware of the whole.
As Southern Baptists seek to recover our theological inheritance and the essence of biblical Christianity, I believe we will see a return to a more Calvinistic understanding of the gospel and a recognition of the absolute sovereignty of God.
Nevertheless, my main concern is not that Southern Baptists return to Calvinism--or to any human theological system. Our main concern must be to see Southern Baptists return to theological health and biblical fidelity. This theological and biblical reformation will, I am certain, also lead to a blazing recovery of missionary zeal and evangelistic fervor--and to the renewal of our churches and denomination. Southern Baptists will truly be headed for a well-deserved dunghill only when we retreat from biblical truth and withdraw from evangelism and missions.
We stand at an historic threshold. Now is the time for Southern Baptists to stand together on the great truths of God's Word and on the front lines of God's redemptive purpose. As Charles Spurgeon reminds us, we should rejoice whenever the Gospel is preached and shared--whether by a Calvinist or a non-Calvinist.
My personal agenda is not driven by Calvinism, but by the hope that Southern Baptists will embrace, confess, preach, and teach the truths of God's Word--and share the Gospel of Jesus Christ with every man, woman, and child on the earth. In this hope and vision we should all stand together.
As a dear friend has well stated, the real issue is not whether John Calvin is your personal theologian, but whether Jesus Christ is your personal Savior. By God's grace, may we see genuine reformation and renewal in our churches--and a Great Commission vision in our hearts.
I am not going to read, much less answer all your voluminous and pedantic posted material. Nevertheless what you have posted warrants an answer. Several of us state as an important Baptist distinctive that the Bible is our final authority in all matters of faith and doctrine. If that be true then of a necessity we must study to show ourselves approved unto God workmen that need not be ashamed but rightly dividing the word of truth. We must gain our beliefs from a study of God's Word. All of our beliefs come from the Word of God. It is our foundation.
If you say: "I believe it supremely arrogant to think GOD cannot reveal something to another of HIS Chosen Ones that HE does not reveal to me (apart from the Word of God)," then that is the heresy of Gnosticism. We don't know anything about God, about Christ, etc. apart from God's revelation to mankind, that is, the Bible.
However, if you say: "I believe it supremely arrogant to think GOD cannot reveal something to another of HIS Chosen Ones that HE does not reveal to me (in the Word of God)," then you are right. And no one is claiming that. If the Bible is our foundation, and we are both studying it objectively, we should come to the same conclusion. However, due to our differing backgrounds, teachings, and yes even biases, we may differ in our conclusions. It is in the nature of man that he will differ in many things. It is also a Baptist distinctive called Soul Liberty.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
So now DHK you are accusing me of being a heretic! You will soon run out of pejoratives! But hang in there!:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
Robert Snow
New Member
I never said you played games with the Word of God; I do however, think you sometimes play games with the English language.
Robert Snow
New Member
DHK never said anything about you being a heretic! You are the one who seem to think that if someone reads the Bible and comes to a different conclusion than you do, it is they that have erred from the faith.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Getting back to the challenge in the OP no one yet has actually provided any rebuttal of merit.
Since Salvation is a supernatural work of God how do those who hold the doctrine of Freewillism know that God has not already performed an act of Grace in their life and given them the Faith to believe. They don’t! Neither can they
Some have taken the approach: If you don't like the message attack the messenger. I believe that is what happened to Jesus Christ. The Jews wanted a carnal earthly kingdom. Jesus Christ proclaimed the Kingdom of God so, with the Romans, they crucified HIM. But, Praise GOD, they could not keep HIM down!
Incidentally the Jews believed that, of their own FREE WILL, they were the ones responsible for the crucifixion of Jesus Christ just like some who hold the doctrine of Freewillism believe that they are the determining factor in their salvation. But old Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, had to butt in where he was not wanted, burst their bubble, and set them straight by informing them they were incorrect taking pride in their FREE WILL murder of our Savior. The Apostle Peter said unto these Jews in Acts 2:22-24, NKJV:
22. Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know--
23. Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death;
24. whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it.
GOD simply used these men to accomplish HIS purpose! Wonder if there is a message in that incident for some on this Forum?
Since Salvation is a supernatural work of God how do those who hold the doctrine of Freewillism know that God has not already performed an act of Grace in their life and given them the Faith to believe. They don’t! Neither can they
Some have taken the approach: If you don't like the message attack the messenger. I believe that is what happened to Jesus Christ. The Jews wanted a carnal earthly kingdom. Jesus Christ proclaimed the Kingdom of God so, with the Romans, they crucified HIM. But, Praise GOD, they could not keep HIM down!
Incidentally the Jews believed that, of their own FREE WILL, they were the ones responsible for the crucifixion of Jesus Christ just like some who hold the doctrine of Freewillism believe that they are the determining factor in their salvation. But old Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, had to butt in where he was not wanted, burst their bubble, and set them straight by informing them they were incorrect taking pride in their FREE WILL murder of our Savior. The Apostle Peter said unto these Jews in Acts 2:22-24, NKJV:
22. Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know--
23. Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death;
24. whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it.
GOD simply used these men to accomplish HIS purpose! Wonder if there is a message in that incident for some on this Forum?
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I answered it. You didn't like the answer. It is apparent that you won't like any answer but your own. This is no longer a debate or even a discussion.
DHK said:
However, if you say: "I believe it supremely arrogant to think GOD cannot reveal something to another of HIS Chosen Ones that HE does not reveal to me (in the Word of God)," then you are right. And no one is claiming that. If the Bible is our foundation, and we are both studying it objectively, we should come to the same conclusion. However, due to our differing backgrounds, teachings, and yes even biases, we may differ in our conclusions. It is in the nature of man that he will differ in many things. It is also a Baptist distinctive called Soul Liberty.
I respectfully disagree with you. The scriptures themselves show God reveals more wisdom and knowledge of the scriptures to some persons over others. But there is a just reason for this. You must believe what God tells you before he will reveal deeper truths to you. If you do not believe the milk of the word, he will not give you the meat.
Jesus said this many times.
Matt 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
The reason Jesus revealed spiritual truths to his disciples is because they listened to him and believed what he told them. So he gave them even more. But to the ones that he knew did not believe the things he said, he took away even what truth had been given to them.
If you listen to the scriptures and believe them, God will give you more understanding of them. If you do not believe them, he will actually take away your understanding of them.
Mark 4:24 And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.
25 For he that hath, to him shall be given: and he that hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he hath.
Now if God tells you something, such as Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God, and then you say, "No, it comes some other way" then God will take away your understanding, because you did not accept and believe the truth he gave you. He will allow you to be deceived. Really, he is giving you what you want. If you do not believe the truth he tells you, he will allow you to believe the lie you desire to believe.
2 Thess 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
This is why there are so many heresies in the world. Men do not believe the simple truths of the scriptues, so God allows them to be deluded or deceived.
However, if you say: "I believe it supremely arrogant to think GOD cannot reveal something to another of HIS Chosen Ones that HE does not reveal to me (in the Word of God)," then you are right. And no one is claiming that. If the Bible is our foundation, and we are both studying it objectively, we should come to the same conclusion. However, due to our differing backgrounds, teachings, and yes even biases, we may differ in our conclusions. It is in the nature of man that he will differ in many things. It is also a Baptist distinctive called Soul Liberty.
I respectfully disagree with you. The scriptures themselves show God reveals more wisdom and knowledge of the scriptures to some persons over others. But there is a just reason for this. You must believe what God tells you before he will reveal deeper truths to you. If you do not believe the milk of the word, he will not give you the meat.
Jesus said this many times.
Matt 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
The reason Jesus revealed spiritual truths to his disciples is because they listened to him and believed what he told them. So he gave them even more. But to the ones that he knew did not believe the things he said, he took away even what truth had been given to them.
If you listen to the scriptures and believe them, God will give you more understanding of them. If you do not believe them, he will actually take away your understanding of them.
Mark 4:24 And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.
25 For he that hath, to him shall be given: and he that hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he hath.
Now if God tells you something, such as Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God, and then you say, "No, it comes some other way" then God will take away your understanding, because you did not accept and believe the truth he gave you. He will allow you to be deceived. Really, he is giving you what you want. If you do not believe the truth he tells you, he will allow you to believe the lie you desire to believe.
2 Thess 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
This is why there are so many heresies in the world. Men do not believe the simple truths of the scriptues, so God allows them to be deluded or deceived.
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
You did not answer it, you just called me a liar and a heretic. I even gave you an example from Acts where the Jews who thought they crucified our Savior of their own free will were shown that they acted at the direction of God.
Acts 2:23, KJV Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
The question you asked:
Originally Posted by OldRegular
Getting back to the challenge in the OP no one yet has actually provided any rebuttal of merit.
Since Salvation is a supernatural work of God how do those who hold the doctrine of Freewillism know that God has not already performed an act of Grace in their life and given them the Faith to believe. They don’t! Neither can they
I answered it. Acts 2:23 has nothing to do with it. Perhaps you are simply going off on another red herring at this point (like fishing do you
).I gave my testimony, according to the Word of God, and according to how I was born again, how God performed an act of grace in my life, how he saved me. It came about by me putting my faith in him. The grace was God's grace on the cross--the shed blood of the Lord Jesus Christ which I believed that day. The Holy Spirit worked through His Word, convicting me of sin. I made the choice to accept him as my Savior. I could have rejected Him, but thankfully I did not at that time resist the Holy Spirit, but trusted Christ instead.
How do I know I am saved?
By the witness of His Word.
By the witness of the Holy Spirit.
God's Spirit bears witness with my spirit that I am a child of God.
I respectfully ask the same question of you? Does God's Spirit do the same for you?
Old Regular
No one persecuted the church like Paul (Saul). He was present at the stoning of Stephen, and then he made havoc of the church.
But when the Lord appeared to him on the road to Damascus and he was saved, later when recounting this to king Agrippa he said he was not disobedient to the heavenly vision.
Acts 26:19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:
Now, this is a problem for Calvinism, because Paul did not receive the Holy Spirit until three days after he saw this vision.
Acts 9:8 And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.
9 And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.
After Paul saw Jesus he was blind and did not eat for three days. Only after this did Ananias come to him and lay hands on him. It was then that Paul received the Holy Ghost.
Acts 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
So, when Paul obeyed the Lord, as he told king Agrippa he did, he did not have the Holy Ghost at this time. This shows an unregenerate man can not only hear and understand God's word, he can obey it also.
Do you deny this?
No one persecuted the church like Paul (Saul). He was present at the stoning of Stephen, and then he made havoc of the church.
But when the Lord appeared to him on the road to Damascus and he was saved, later when recounting this to king Agrippa he said he was not disobedient to the heavenly vision.
Acts 26:19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:
Now, this is a problem for Calvinism, because Paul did not receive the Holy Spirit until three days after he saw this vision.
Acts 9:8 And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.
9 And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.
After Paul saw Jesus he was blind and did not eat for three days. Only after this did Ananias come to him and lay hands on him. It was then that Paul received the Holy Ghost.
Acts 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
So, when Paul obeyed the Lord, as he told king Agrippa he did, he did not have the Holy Ghost at this time. This shows an unregenerate man can not only hear and understand God's word, he can obey it also.
Do you deny this?
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
It is very likely that Paul had undergone the new birth prior to his Damascus road experience. Otherwise why did our Savior ask Paul the following?
Acts 9:5, NKJV And he said, “Who are You, Lord?” Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads.”
The Damascus road event was in all likely hood Paul's conversion.
- "very likely" bold and underline is my emphais -
I am trying to stay out of these threads but I must ask here -
According to your own statement it appears you deem it just as 'likely' that Paul had not undergone the 'new birth', correct?
Jesus asking Paul why does he kick against the pricks was a common metaphore used in the day as seen here in Jamison,Fausett, and Brown Commentary:
Or Matthew Henry's Commentary on it:
editted in - Unless you are refering to Jesus statement is or will only be given/asked to those who are regenerate?
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Acts 2:23 shows that though some people think they are acting according to their free will they are not. They are acting under the supernatural direction of GOD. I believe that to be the same with those who hold to the doctrine of Freewillism.
Just cannot be civil can you DHK? If I questioned your salvation as you have mine on two occasions on this thread I have no doubt that you would have reported me to the Administrator.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Nevermind. It is not worth it. Have a good day and many blessings to you.