How Do They Know?

[DHK]

Romans 10:17. So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

It is obvious from this Scripture that the "Faith that saves" is not inherent in man. Sounds to me like the "Faith that saves comes from GOD" and is not like the so-called faith that your car will start when you turn the key.

I heard the gospel.
I sounded reasonable, true, and most of all the Holy Spirit was there convicting me of sin.
I put my faith in Christ, and at that point was born again.
Faith came by hearing the Word of God. I heard the word of God, put my faith in its gospel message (or the author of it), and was saved.
God did not give me the faith to do so.

 

[Skandelon]

Romans 10:17. So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

It is obvious from this Scripture that the "Faith that saves" is not inherent in man. Sounds to me like the "Faith that saves comes from GOD" and is not like the so-called faith that your car will start when you turn the key.

The message "the word of God," comes from God, yes, but faith is a response of man who hear that message. People can choose to believe that message and follow Christ or not. "How do they believe unless someone preaches?"

Why else would Christ call those listening to him to "consider the cost" of being his disciple. It's not just a call to believe that he is the Christ, it is a call to follow him. There were several in scripture who seemed to believe the story but not willing to follow Him (i.e. the rich young ruler). Is it God's fault for not giving this the Rich Young Ruler enough faith to believe and follow Christ? Or was it because the man consider the costs to be too high and made a choice to not follow Him? It is man's responsibility to act in faith, not God's.

God doesn't say on that final day, "Well done me." He says, "Well done my good and faithful servant." Paul did not say, "God made Abraham believe so he was saved." He says, "Abraham believe and it was credited to HIM as righteousness."

 

[David Michael Harris]

Saved by grace, that by faith, which is the gift of God.

It's the believing thing that fascinates me.

It's interesting to me that the Gospel of John ( which we know is very different from the others ) apparently never uses the word faith, but uses the words belief, believe and believing. Truly an evangelistic Gospel.

 

[Skandelon]

I heard the gospel.
I sounded reasonable, true, and most of all the Holy Spirit was there convicting me of sin.
I put my faith in Christ, and at that point was born again.
Faith came by hearing the Word of God. I heard the word of God, put my faith in its gospel message (or the author of it), and was saved.
God did not give me the faith to do so.

:thumbs: If God has to give men the faith to believe in truth religions then who must give men faith to believe in false religions?

See my point? If Calvinism is true and God must give men faith in order for them to believe the gospel of our bible, then what is needed for Buddhists to put their faith in their teachings? Nothing? Why can men put faith in false things but not truth? Is God that cruel that he makes it impossible for the bulk of humanity to place their faith in him but allow them to place it in all kinds of false teachings? It doesn't make sense.

 

[David Michael Harris]

Another interesting area to study is the teaching of Paul that we all receive a measure of faith as God gives. This is different from the saving faith I believe.

Go look.

 

[OldRegular]

I
Faith came by hearing the Word of God. I heard the word of God, put my faith in its gospel message (or the author of it), and was saved.

So you concede that the Faith that came by hearing the Word of GOD is not the same as faith that your car will start? The Scripture says it came; what was its source? If it came it had to come from somewhere.

 

[OldRegular]

God did not give me the faith to do so.

Then you reject the Word of GOD in Ephesians 2:8?:tear::tear:

 

[OldRegular]

Another interesting area to study is the teaching of Paul that we all receive a measure of faith. This is different from the saving faith I belief.

Go look.

I agree. The passage to which you are referencing is:

Romans 12:3. For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Elsewhere we read:

1 Corinthians 12:8-10
8. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9. To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10. To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

Now how can anyone argue that GOD does not give the GIFT OF FAITH unless they want to deny Scripture?

 

[OldRegular]

If God has to give men the faith to believe in truth religions then who must give men faith to believe in false religions?

GOD regenerates HIS Chosen Ones and gives them the Gift of Faith to believe the Gospel Call, making it the Effectual Call!

You can make up whatever answer suits you to the question:

then who must give men faith to believe in false religions?

 

[Skandelon]

So you concede that the Faith that came by hearing the Word of GOD is not the same as faith that your car will start? The Scripture says it came; what was its source? If it came it had to come from somewhere.

You are making this too difficult. You can't believe in something you don't know. He knew about cars because he was taught with words and experience. "How will they believe unless someone tell them?"

Now the question for you is, "Why can't they believe when someone does tell them?

Why can they believe a lie like Buddhism but not the truth of Christianity?

 

[David Michael Harris]

Now how can anyone argue that GOD does not give the GIFT OF FAITH unless they want to deny Scripture?

I don't. I also agree I need to humble myself.

Faith is the gift of God. But after believing in my opinion.

 

[OldRegular]

You are making this too difficult. You can't believe in something you don't know. He knew about cars because he was taught with words and experience. "How will they believe unless someone tell them?"

I have presented Scripture in post 108 that GOD gives man faith. Why cannot He give His Chosen Ones the Faith to believe the Gospel? You and DHK claim that such faith is inherent in man.

Now the question for you is, "Why can't they believe when someone does tell them?

Why can they believe a lie like Buddhism but not the truth of Christianity?

I answered that above but will repeat it:

You can make up whatever answer suits you to the question:

then who must give men faith to believe in false religions?

 

[Skandelon]

I have presented Scripture in post 108 that GOD gives man faith. Why cannot He give His Chosen Ones the Faith to believe the Gospel? You and DHK claim that such faith is inherent in man.

What we are trying to show that the ability for men to believe something, whether it's car starting or Buddhism, is inherent. I can believe that George Washington was our first president and I can believe the earth is still flat. I have the ability to believe truth and lie. If people can believe these truths and lies, why, OH WHY! COULD THEY NOT ALSO BELIEVE IT WHEN SOMEONE TELLS THEM JESUS IS LORD?

Even the demons believe this and shutter. Why can't people believe it?

Once a man believes the truth of the gospel they must consider the cost of being his disciple and they must choose who they will follow. For this they will be held to account.

 

[DHK]

So you concede that the Faith that came by hearing the Word of GOD is not the same as faith that your car will start? The Scripture says it came; what was its source? If it came it had to come from somewhere.

If God gave me the faith to believe the Scripture,
then Ford gave me the faith that my car would start.
The analogy remains the same.

Faith comes by hearing.
In salvation faith comes by hearing the Word of God.
With my car faith comes by hearing (reading) the manual of the car.
Either way, it is my faith--not God's, not Ford's.
It is my faith, and my faith must have an object.
In salvation the object of my faith is Christ and his atoning work on the cross.
With my car the object of my faith is the manual that came with the car.
Nevertheless it is my faith. I believe in Christ; I believe the manual.
There is one basic difference. Ford makes mistakes. God never makes a mistake. His promises are sure. He alone is perfect.

 

[canadyjd]

Now the question for you is, "Why can't they believe when someone does tell them?

Because they are not His sheep.

John 10:25 "...I told you, and you do not believe.....(26) But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep."

If they were His sheep, they would have heard His voice, believed and followed Him because God the Father would have drawn them and Holy Spirit would have convicted them of the truth.

John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out...(39) This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day."
And

John 10:3 "...and the sheep hear His voice, and He calls His own sheep by name and leads them out. (14) I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me...

Why can they believe a lie like Buddhism but not the truth of Christianity?

Because they are not able unless the Father draws them.

John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him..."

and

I Cor. 2:14 "But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised."

and

Romans 1:25 "For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie..."

peace to youraying:

 

[Robert Snow]

Regeneration or the new birth is not the same as conversion.

Another confusing Calvinistic statement.

 

[Robert Snow]

I know that most people believe that when they exercise faith in Jesus Christ for Salvation they believe it is of their very own free will. My question is: how do you know it is your free will, how do you know that GOD did not give you that gift of Faith, how do you know that GOD did not exercise HIS will to ensure that your so-called free will did as HE desired.

How do you know that you didn't act according to your free will in accepting Christ as your Savior, yet later believe the doctrine of Calvinism and attribute it to God's irresistible grace? Maybe you exercised free will and just don't know it!

 

[billwald]

>Originally Posted by OldRegular
>Regeneration or the new birth is not the same as conversion.

EXACTLY! Regeneration is an act of the Holy Spirit. Conversion is the human realization that one is regenerate.

Regeneration qualifies one for Heaven. Conversion qualifies one for the Church on Earth.

 

[DHK]

>Originally Posted by OldRegular
>Regeneration or the new birth is not the same as conversion.

EXACTLY! Regeneration is an act of the Holy Spirit. Conversion is the human realization that one is regenerate.

Theoretically then, one might be "regenerated" at the age of ten, but not realize it until the age of 80 a couple days or so before he dies. That is what it is, right: a human realization that one is regenerate--whether or not one is on his death bed, and was regenerated in childhood. How would he suddenly come to that realization? Does God just zap him with a bolt of lightning and tell him--Hey you! Don't worry about it! you have been regenerated. Now just come to the realization of it. It is your time to die.
That is the wierdest form of salvation that I have ever heard of.

 

[Hawkins]

I think that earth is a place for us to choose God, and at the same time, for God to find us. We are more like a flock of sheep. Some of us will listen to the Shepherd's call and will return on our own will. Some of us are totally lost that Shepherd may need to rescure us from the hands of the wolves. The goats' hearts are hardened (some by themselves, some others by God). They thus won't be able to recognise the Shepherd. As a result, the goats may think that they can survive the wildness by compromising with the wolves.