How do we define what is good and evil?

[Skandelon]

Answer the question. When you witness to a non-elect person and they don't want to come to Christ and they die in their rebellion, why is it they they COULD NOT DESIRE to come to Christ?

Allow me to answer for you:

1. Because God didn't salvifically love them (excuse #1)
2. Because God didn't unconditionally elect them (excuse #2)
3. Because God didn't atone for them (excuse #3)
4. Because God didn't effectually call or regenerate them (excuse #4)
5. Because God chose to punish all of mankind by making them totally depraved from birth due to the Fall. (excuse #5)

Look, I'm a five pointer.

 

[jbh28]

Answer the question. When you witness to a non-elect person and they don't want to come to Christ and they die in their rebellion, why is it they they COULD NOT DESIRE to come to Christ?

Allow me to answer for you:

1. Because God didn't salvifically love them (excuse #1)
2. Because God didn't unconditionally elect them (excuse #2)
3. Because God didn't atone for them (excuse #3)
4. Because God didn't effectually call or regenerate them (excuse #4)
5. Because God chose to punish all of mankind by making them totally depraved from birth due to the Fall. (excuse #5)

Look, I'm a five pointer.

Do you have a problem with using the Bible for some reason? Seems strange that I've asked to look at the Bible but you refuse and continue to play the excuse game. Let the heathen blame God, but that's not a valid excuse.

 

[Skandelon]

Just answer the question or tell us why you won't. According to your system why can't the non-elect want to come even when invited?

 

[Skandelon]

Answer the question. When you witness to a non-elect person and they don't want to come to Christ and they die in their rebellion, why is it they they COULD NOT DESIRE to come to Christ?

Allow me to answer for you:

1. Because God didn't salvifically love them (excuse #1)
2. Because God didn't unconditionally elect them (excuse #2)
3. Because God didn't atone for them (excuse #3)
4. Because God didn't effectually call or regenerate them (excuse #4)
5. Because God chose to punish all of mankind by making them totally depraved from birth due to the Fall. (excuse #5)

Look, I'm a five pointer.

You requested scripture? Ok

1. Love: 1 John 4:19: "We love because he first loved us."

Calvinistic interpretation: If God loves someone they WILL CERTAINLY and IRRESISTIBLY love Him back, thus if God doesn't love someone they will not love Him back. Excuse for not loving God: "Because he never loved me."

2. Unconditional election: Rom. 9:11: "Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls--she was told, "The older will serve the younger."

Calvinistic interpretation: If God choses to save someone before they are born they will CERTAINLY and IRRESISTIBLY be saved, thus if God doesn't elect them they will not, they will not even want to be saved or be able to desire to be saved. Excuse for not choosing God: "God never chose me."

Need I go on?

 

[jbh28]

Just answer the question or tell us why you won't. According to your system why can't the non-elect want to come even when invited?

I've already answered it.

You still don't want to discuss what the Bible teaches. Says a lot.

Skan - excuses
jbh - Bible


Want to join me in a Bible discussion, sure. Want to play your excuse game. Sorry. Want to say I've not answered your question when I have. Sorry.

 

[jbh28]

You requested scripture? Ok

1. Love: 1 John 4:19: "We love because he first loved us."

Calvinistic interpretation: If God loves someone they WILL CERTAINLY and IRRESISTIBLY love Him back, thus if God doesn't love someone they will not love Him back. Excuse for not loving God: "Because he never loved me."

2. Unconditional election: Rom. 9:11: "Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls--she was told, "The older will serve the younger."

Calvinistic interpretation: If God choses to save someone before they are born they will CERTAINLY and IRRESISTIBLY be saved, thus if God doesn't elect them they will not, they will not even want to be saved or be able to desire to be saved. Excuse for not choosing God: "God never chose me."

Need I go on?

You need a break. Oh, straw man on my belief again. Anyway, says a lot about you with your sarcasm of the Scriptures. You don't want to see what the Bible teaches on the depravity of man. I gave you your choice on a passage on the depravity of man. Go ahead and keep blaming God for allowing sin in the first place...

btw, who cares if man really has an excuse anyway. He doesn't deserve salvation in the first place!

EDIT: Now look, I don't think you are a bad person, but you are really showing yourself here. We must, must, must get our theology from the Scripture. God is good and just. We cannot fit God into our thinking because we will fail every single time we do it. Why doesn't God just save everyone? Why did God allow evil in the first place. No man will have an excuse for not believing because he doesn't want to believe in the first place. The only way for man to have an excuse is to say I wanted to believe but "you didn't love me" or I wanted to believe but you didn't choose me. You don't believe that God chooses individuals for salvation. So therefore those that go to hell could say even with you, "God, why didn't you give me faith?" So that's why the "excuse" argument is not valid. We must, must, must go to the Bible and believe it for what it says.

Now I know I said I wouldn't discuss the "excuse" thing, but I wanted you to understand where I'm coming from. Man can always have an excuse, but he is still responsible for his sin. Let's look at what the Bible teaches about the depravity of sin, not what we think will keep man from having an excuse.

 

[Amy.G]

Here are some real life excuses that have been expressed to me personally.

1. It's not my fault, God made me this way. Why should I be punished for Adam's sin.

2. Why did God allow Adam to sin to begin with?

3. Why does God hold me responsible for someone else's sin?

4. Why doesn't God show Himself like He did in the OT?

5. When God proves to me He exits, then I'll believe.

6. The bible was written by men.

7. The bible is just a fairy tale.

8. If God's is real, why do bad things happen?

9. People who believe in God are weak.

10. Why doesn't God just save everybody?


There. I'm a 10 pointer. If I were a deer I'd be on somebody's wall. :laugh:

 

[jbh28]

Here are some real life excuses that have been expressed to me personally.

1. It's not my fault, God made me this way. Why should I be punished for Adam's sin.

2. Why did God allow Adam to sin to begin with?

3. Why does God hold me responsible for someone else's sin?

4. Why doesn't God show Himself like He did in the OT?

5. When God proves to me He exits, then I'll believe.

6. The bible was written by men.

7. The bible is just a fairy tale.

8. If God's is real, why do bad things happen?

9. People who believe in God are weak.

10. Why doesn't God just save everybody?


There. I'm a 10 pointer. If I were a deer I'd be on somebody's wall. :laugh:

Exactly, man will always come up with excuses. This whole thing is about the problem of evil. Why does God allow bad things to happen if he is so good and great? We know that in heaven that there will be no evil. God will defeat it. Why did he allow it in the first place.

 

[Skandelon]

You need a break.

Getting personal again. It's not needed bro.

Oh, straw man on my belief again.

Which part and why? Make an argument and I'll reply. If you quote the line that is 'strawman' and then explain how it misrepresent what you really believe then you would be engaging me in a debate.

Anyway, says a lot about you with your sarcasm of the Scriptures.

You are reading an intent into my posts and once again turning things personal.

Go ahead and keep blaming God for allowing sin in the first place...

We are not 'blaming God,' we are debating views about God according to differing interpretations of our systems. Again, this type of response is not helpful..

btw, who cares if man really has an excuse anyway. He doesn't deserve salvation in the first place!

We all agree on this point. That is not what we are debating. We are not debating if they have an excuse for being saved or not, we are debating the excuse for their unbelief.

EDIT: Now look, I don't think you are a bad person, but you are really showing yourself here. We must, must, must get our theology from the Scripture.

This assumes I'm not getting my theology from scripture (question begging). Read Adam Clarke, AW Tozer, CS Lewis, John Wesley or a host of other non-Calvinistic scholars who go line by line through different passages of scriptures explaining what a non-Cal believes about any particular verse. If you have a verse you want me to parse out with you I'd be glad to so and have done so many times with you over the years. Again, this is not helpful.

So, are you going to answer my question or not because I need to close this thread since its so long.

 

[jbh28]

This assumes I'm not getting my theology from scripture (question begging).

I wasn't trying to imply that at all.

So, are you going to answer my question or not because I need to close this thread since its so long.

this is the best answer.

All men are responsible to repent and believe the gospel. They do not want to.they are unwilling to, because sin reigns in their heart,and their minds have been corrupted......they are fully responsible....they do not want to.

anyway, you can have the last word and then close the thread. Didn't mean to make it personal, but I wanted to see that the Bible teaches and not worry about if man can have an excuse.

 

[Skandelon]

Here is how I would answer them (abbreviated of course):

Here are some real life excuses that have been expressed to me personally.

1. It's not my fault, God made me this way. Why should I be punished for Adam's sin.

It is your fault because according to Paul in Romans 5, "all have sinned." Have you sinned? Do you realize that your sin is an offense against the eternally and infinitely Holy God and since sin seriousness is not measured by the nature of the act, but the one who is offended, the punishment is likewise eternal and infinite: Hell. Be very afraid, for you are at fault.

2. Why did God allow Adam to sin to begin with?

God desired free moral creatures, not robots. To allow for free worship there must be the opportunity to rebel, for without darkness there is no understanding of light. "God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all." - Paul

3. Why does God hold me responsible for someone else's sin?

He doesn't. He holds your responsible for your sin. We are all sinners.

4. Why doesn't God show Himself like He did in the OT?

He could and he might at times, but even in the OT we learn that his voice was in the still quite wind. We must learn to listen.

5. When God proves to me He exits, then I'll believe.

Can I share with you the story of doubting Thomas?

6. The bible was written by men.

And our redemption was purchased by a man, what is your point? God works through people.

7. The bible is just a fairy tale.

Lets look at the prophecies that have been fulfilled thus far and see if you still feel that way...

8. If God's is real, why do bad things happen?

If God is not real why do good things happen?
This is the age old problem called Theodicy and there are many great explanations in scripture as to what God is doing to display His glory...

9. People who believe in God are weak.

True. And in our weakness He is made strong. He gets more glory that way.

10. Why doesn't God just save everybody?

See the first two answers.

 

[Skandelon]

I wasn't trying to imply that at all.



this is the best answer.

Originally Posted by Iconoclast
All men are responsible to repent and believe the gospel. They do not want to.they are unwilling to, because sin reigns in their heart,and their minds have been corrupted......they are fully responsible....they do not want to.

anyway, you can have the last word and then close the thread. Didn't mean to make it personal, but I wanted to see that the Bible teaches and not worry about if man can have an excuse.

Icons answer is just to once again say 'they don't want to,' but I'm asking "Why can't they want to?" That is their excuse.

If you drugged someone to make them not want to do something then who is really at fault for their desire? That is the issue you refuse to address here.

 

[jbh28]

Icons answer is just to once again say 'they don't want to,' but I'm asking "Why can't they want to?" That is their excuse.

If you drugged someone to make them not want to do something then who is really at fault for their desire? That is the issue you refuse to address here.

What would your answer be?

btw, good answers to the "excuses" above. Except for one.. I started a thread on that. Not to call you out, but I have been thinking about it for a while when someone else said it.

 

[Skandelon]

What would your answer be?

Why don't unbelievers want to come even after being invited?

Because that was their free unhindered choice in the face of God gracious love and provision. They COULD have willingly come but freely (contra-causally) decided to 'trade the truth in for a lie' and will suffer the consequences because they have no excuse.

I need to close this one, but if you want to reply you can pick it up in the other thread. :wavey: